Talk:Sting (percussion)

Renamed article

"Sting(percussion)" is now "Sting (percussion)". It's as simple as that. :P I left the "this article needs to be wikified" tag because, honestly, I'm a noob, and I don't know whether this article fits the other guidelines. OneofThem

Why does "bu-bumKSH" link to "Failure"? --24.46.164.83 07:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Is it just me, or is the Example attached to this article missing a note? 68.209.116.39 (talk) 16:44, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The audio example that was there [1] doesn't sound all that hot on my computer speakers but it's a lot simpler than the notation example which was itself labelled basic, which is probably confusing... I've had a go at making it a bit more obvious that the two are supposed to be different. Andrewa (talk) 21:27, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Title of article needs a source

The fact this form of permission is universally known as a rimshot (and indeed I went to the rimshot article and was puzzled why there wasn't any information about it; the "See also" link to "Sting" didn't indicate an alternate definition) suggests this article needs sourcing to verify why it's called "Sting" and not part of the "Rimshot" article. 70.72.211.35 (talk) 22:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

The article certainly needs sources generally! I've never heard this called a rimshot, however a rimshot can be used as a sting (as can a single cymbal crash... perhaps more commonly). I suspect that the editors who added this were misinterpretting their sources, but as they didn't provide any it's hard to say.

I've removed , often referred to as a rimshot because it's both unsourced and, in my view, inaccurate. Andrewa (talk) 16:00, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

PROD

Removed the PROD, the article is already (barely) more than a dicdef. And there is scope for expansion. Andrewa (talk) 16:00, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Difficult to substantiate its usage online owing to the prominence of several musicians with the nickname Sting. I note that wikt:sting reads in part 6. A short percussive phrase played by a drummer to accent the punchline in a comedy show. Andrewa (talk) 02:55, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

See http://www.tomscott.com/cliff/ for an interesting take on the term, which pretty much assumes it's in common usage. As it is.

See also Sting (musical phrase) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sting (musical phrase).

And now see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sting (percussion). Some good links there now.

There's definitely lots of work to do... possible merge with Sting (musical phrase), sources, and sorting out the confusion with rim shot... I've never heard a sting called a rim shot, nor ever heard a rim shot used alone as a sting as far as I can remember... it doesn't sound like an effective or professional one to me.

(A short crush roll (another redlink... work to do everywhere) ending in a rim shot, yes, that's a very effective sting and part of every working drummer's basic toolkit in my experience. My students certainly learn it! Personally I would normally add a similtaneous kick and cymbal choke to the rimshot for added effect... the kick partially also to provide support for your back, a karate technique that every drummer should learn if they don't want to retire early with back pain, and the choke partly for visual effect, it looks really impressive to seem to use three hands at once and the single-hand choke is not nearly as difficult as it looks.)

But if rim shot is really used to mean sting, then we should report that. I still think it's a bit of folklore. My bet is that people who use this term are trying to show how much they know about drumming, and are succeeding in a way by revealing that they know very little. But I could be wrong.

But the first job is to get the AfD out of the way, so we don't actually go backwards... Andrewa (talk) 13:05, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

The AfD seems likely to fail, so I've put some work into the format of the article. Andrewa (talk) 21:17, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

And fail it did, no support at all for deletion, and some good humour shown... except by the nom [2]. Andrewa (talk) 12:16, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Related articles

It's been suggested at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sting (percussion) that this article might be merged with rimshot. While I think that particular suggestion is actually a step backwards (see http://soundandthefoley.com/2013/04/10/of-stings-and-rimshots/ for some of why) there may well be room for a merge or two in the general area or even some new stubs, see sting (disambiguation), rimshot (disambiguation), talk:rimshot (disambiguation)#Other meanings, wikt:rimshot and wikt:sting. Some particularly interesting articles:

• Sting (musical phrase) describes a broader but more esoteric use of the term sting, broader in that it's not just percussion and esoteric in that the subject area is probably less often discussed. But it's the more obvious possible merge for this particular article, and was also suggested as such in the AfD discussion [3]. And it also survived an AfD of its own a year and a bit ago, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sting (musical phrase).
• Stab (music) is an even broader term.
• Rimshot (broadcasting) describes an unrelated concept, but well to be aware of it as this other usage is yet another reason not to call a sting played on percussion a rimshot. Not that it's Wikipedia's job to fix English usage, just the opposite, we follow the usage we find in reliable sources, disambiguating and using hatnotes where we need to resolve the ambiguities this sometimes causes. Just well to be aware of the controversy and the consequent need for caution.

There may well be other relevant articles out there. I note this particular article is listed above as being of particular interest to the Percussion and Comedy WikiProjects. That's this article's current focus as I understand it, and also the most common meaning of sting in the context of musical performance. Andrewa (talk) 13:53, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Refs needed

I removed[4] three citations in the article just now. Two of them don't actually confirm the statements they were supposed to support and one was a circular reference back to this article. There's still actually no reliable sources to confirm the very definition of a sting.

Peter ^Isotalo 19:49, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

rimshot

Fact is that "rimshot" for the sting is in general usage. Fact is also that our mission isn't to correct the unwashed masses on language, since whatever people say is per definition correct. or at the very least, Wikipedia's mission doesn't including telling people they're using language wrong.

I have restructured the passage about the rimshot. Explaining to people that in percussion, rimshot means something else, is fine, good even. Telling people that they're wrong when they call a sting a rimshot, however, is a) doomed to fail b) condescending c) unfriendly, and d) all of the above. Inform, don't lecture, and all that.

Hope you have a nice day. CapnZapp (talk) 08:42, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Excellent point that Wikipedia's mission doesn't including telling people they're using language wrong and well said. See wp:SOAP. And a point often overlooked. Andrewa (talk) 18:17, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Illustration reference

I edited a reference to the illustration of the musical notation for an advanced example of a sting sequence. The illustration is not necessarily to the right of the text for someone reading on a mobile device. Matuko (talk) 13:33, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Why was this reference removed

See https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sting_(percussion)&diff=1101805602&oldid=1100070999

The edit summary I believe this reference is better suited for Sting (musical phrase) is strange IMO. That doesn't make it any less relevant here. Andrewa (talk) 18:22, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

This article deals with the comedic drum punctuation and the other deals with dramatic phrases that punctuate music. The latter is what The Guardian article is talking about. There is no mention of the drum set fill in the article. Why? I Ask (talk) 03:08, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

So what? That simply does not address the issues.

Your edit summary is nonsensical. Just because a reference is relevant to one article, that does not mean that it is not also relevant to another. Does it?

The other issue is your claim that There is no mention of the drum set fill in the article. That is simply untrue.

You say the other deals with dramatic phrases that punctuate music. The latter is what The Guardian article is talking about. I think you mean, the Wikipedia article Sting (musical phrase) deals with these dramatic phrases, that is correct, and that the Guardian article deals only with these phrases, and that is false.

This Wikipedia article is about a short drum sequence played by a drummer to punctuate a joke while the reference discusses a sting – a brief bit of music that media producers can use to break up the action or punctuate a theatrical moment. Surely, to punctuate a joke is an example of to punctuate a theatrical moment?

Please note that drums are musical instruments, and drummers are musicians, and a short drum sequence is an example of a brief bit of music. Perhaps that is the problem here. Andrewa (talk) 12:04, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Can you quote me the part of the article that talks about the drum fill? I will admit that I did not give it too thorough of a read, but a word search revealed nothing. Furthermore, I find it more akin to the issue with The Lick and Lick (music). A single source defining a lick would not be incredibly helpful for The Lick as it does not directly help define what The Lick specifically is. It's a similar situation with this drum set fill (which I suppose can be considered a sting). There's a page defining what a general sting is. There needs to be sources defining what this sting is. I also disagree with the placement of it in the "External links" section. If you do want to incorporate this source into the article, why not make it a footnote for defining what a general sting is? Having it be an external link that does not actually talk about the article subject except in some roundabout way is not too helpful for the reader. Why? I Ask (talk) 16:44, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Where to start.

The whole article is about the drum fill as you call it. But I did quote above a sting – a brief bit of music that media producers can use to break up the action or punctuate a theatrical moment which is from the Guardian article (please check me). Now you seem to want to call that a drum fill rather than what the article and the references call it. I cannot imagine why.

Admittedly our article on fill (music) to which drum fill redirects is confusing, because it is just plain wrong. It says a fill is an improvised phrase played during a section where nothing else is happening in the music (my emphasis). Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. I have played whole evenings on a drum kit following charts. There was nothing improvised all night, but there were fills all through each piece. And drum fills are often related to what else is happening in the music, in some genres more than in others. The author of that part of the article has no idea. I guess it just didn't occur to them that some drummers can and do read music, or that we can and do rehearse, and again in some genres it would be unthinkable to play in performance anything that wasn't exactly as rehearsed. Thanks for putting me on the trail of fixing that. I'm afraid that percussion articles attract some rather sad edits.

But then I cannot imagine why you thought I believe this reference is better suited for Sting (musical phrase) was a valid reason to remove the reference, either.

There may be valid reasons, but you do not seem to know any. So may I put it back until you find one? Andrewa (talk) 04:32, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

This is what the article is talking about: [5]. A short drum fill. If you really want to be picky, then I suppose that it's not technically a fill, but I feel that it's a good enough description (as three short notes played on drums). The Guardian article talks about the blanket definition and history of a sting, as is the subject of Sting (musical phrase). It does not mention the specific "ba dum tiss" that is the subject of this article. I suppose if you wanted to define what a sting is, then that'd be fine to use the reference, but calling this comedic drum fill a sting needs a reference. None of the current ones do except an external link that cites Wikipedia and TV Tropes' article on the subject [6].

The subject of the article is really better known as a "rimshot" (which we both know not to confuse with the percussive technique), and a Google search of the term "rimshot" brings up what is notated at the top of the article. I suppose this article is just poorly named and written, leading to confusion about the core subject of the article (the famous "ba dum tiss"). This whole article needs to be renamed to "Rimshot (comedy)" or something else suitable for disambiguation.

(And yes, I agree. Most percussion pages suck.) Why? I Ask (talk) 05:26, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Picky? You say This is what the article is talking about: [7]. A short drum fill. Wrong. It is not a drum fill, and you know that.

You say the specific "ba dum tiss" that is the subject of this article. Wrong, and again you know it. This Wikipedia article is far more general in scope than that.

You say I feel that it's a good enough description. Irrelevant. Just as I believe this reference is better suited for Sting (musical phrase) was irrelevant.

I respect that you have opinions. I'm afraid that I have formed a very negative opinion of them. But that is irrelevant too, as are mine.

The facts are that you have removed a reference for no good reason. Please may I put it back? Andrewa (talk) 18:52, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

What is the subject of this article if not the "ba dum tiss"? And what descriptor would you use over "drum fill"? I'm not the only one to use that term, as the TV Tropes article even calls it that. All the extraeous information in this page such as "More general use of the term" is not needed, as it is defined on the Sting (musical phrase) article. Simply put, the reference does not help reference anything on this page. (Also the Basil Bush information is straight up not a percussion sting; it's a catchphrase.) Why? I Ask (talk) 19:06, 7 August 2022 (UTC)