Talk:Stratford Festival

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was to move the article. I'll leave the disambiguating to people who have a better overview of all the world's Shakespeare festivals in towns called Stratford. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 08:41, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

Stratford Festival of Canada → Stratford Shakespeare Festival — The festival has officially adopted a new name —Dhodges (talk) 14:57, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Weak oppose. The official name is not the most important consideration. What's the common name? Andrewa (talk) 03:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

*Weak oppose. A person from outside Canada, especially from England, would not expect this title to associate with this page. (I am not sure if there is actually a "festival" in Stratford-upon-Avon, England, but that is besides the point.) Would the title "Stratford Shakespeare Festival (Canada)" be better? Sam Staton (talk) 19:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I've just been reading WP:PRECISION, and I think I'm justified in preferring "Stratford Shakespeare Festival (Canada)". 12:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Neutral, see discussion. Sam Staton (talk) 15:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

• Weak oppose. I originally proposed the change, but after reading the comments here I think we should leave the title as it is, and make reference to the official name in the article dizzyhiss (talk) 23:58, 14 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dizzy hiss (talk • contribs)

• Support. Maybe "officially" wasn't the right word. 'Point is, this is the name that will be used on all signage, publicity materials, programmes, t-shirts, ball caps and so on. In short, this is the festival's name now.- Dhodges (talk) 17:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support. The festival will be known by this name. It is immaterial whether someone is confused by the title; if there are no other articles deserving of this title, then there is no issue. Wikipedia does not disambiguate articles when there is only one article with a specific title. The introduction makes it clear where the festival takes place, as do the categories. Moreover, incoming wikilinks are bound to the context of the festival, so those should not cause confusion. (Note: WP:PRECISION applies to situations in which there is more than one meaning for any given term, that is, for disambiguation. It does not apply to this situation.) Mindmatrix 15:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support. This is the new name of the festival. Disambiguation is clearly not warranted, for reasons set out above.Skeezix1000 (talk) 19:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
• Support Our job is to keep the encyclopedia running smoothly, the organizers job is to choose the name. Who are we to argue with them? -Royalguard11(T·R!) 03:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support per Mindmatrix above. So long as "Stratford Festival" gets there, I'm happy, and there is no need to put "(Canada)" in the page name, so long as there is only one Stratford Festival. Franamax (talk) 06:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support and redirect. New title doesn't seem to be confusing. WHATaintNOcountryIeverHEARDofDOtheySPEAKenglishINwhat (talk) 04:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. new title is misleading and conflicts with American Shakespeare Theatre at Stratford, Connecticut, although it is currently closed. see also {http://www.stratfordfestival.com/news/index.htm Stratford Festival website] clariosophic (talk) 14:42, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

How could it possibly conflict with another festival with a completely different name? Have you read the discussion below? Skeezix1000 (talk) 14:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

It is a company called "American Shakespeare Theatre" that performs at the "Stratford Festival Theatre", so there is plenty of potential for confusion. If the move goes ahead, it would be reasonable to put a disambiguation note about this at the top, as well. (The list of disambigs that will be needed is getting quite long!) I have added another discussion point below. Sam Staton (talk) 18:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Well, I suppose in casual conversation many people just say "Stratford Festival", but that actually gets confusing for our purposes. -Dhodges (talk) 06:46, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

In reply to Mindmatrix's points above:

WP:PRECISION says "article titles give the reader an idea of what they can expect within an article... do him a favor and name your articles precisely." Most readers, seeing the words "Stratford" and "Shakespeare" together, will think of Stratford-upon-Avon in England. It doesn't matter that there are no other articles by this name: "If you want to discuss a particular version of realism – for example, Platonic realism – then don't call your page realism". Sam Staton (talk) 15:52, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Certainly true, but that refers to cases in which more than one article can have the undisambiguated name (eg - realism). In those cases, disambiguation is necessary, and I'm not disputing it. However, there are no other instances of concepts which can take the name Stratford Shakespeare Festival as far as I know, and that article title currently redirects here. Apply disambiguation rules only when there are articles to disambiguate. In fact, the text of the WP:PRECISION convention is preceded by the nutshell summary "Be precise when necessary". (emphasis mine). It is not necessary here. Mindmatrix 16:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Mindmatrix. Sam Staton is misreading WP:PRECISION. Disambiguation is only necessary where two subjects share the same name. If there is any risk of confusion, a DAB line at the top of the article more than suffices, without necessitating a disambiguated title. Skeezix1000 (talk) 19:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for trying to clarify this. I'm still a little unsure. There are "Shakespeare festivals" in other Stratfords around the world [1]. For example there have been and continue to be "Shakespeare festivals" in Stratford-upon-Avon, UK. See [2], [3], [4]. Do we have to wait until someone makes pages about these things, before the title is disambiguated? Sam Staton (talk) 12:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Sam, the point of disambiguation is to point users to disparate concepts with the same name. Here, we really have similar concepts with disparate names, so it's doubtful that disambiguation would be necessary. However, we could place a note at the top of relevant articles pointing to the others (if there are only a few), or create a page listing each of the similar items and pointing to that from a dabnote from each of the other articles. For example, a good disambiguation page for the various festivals might be Stratford festival or Shakespeare festival, each of which would point to appropriate articles on Wikipedia. Moreover, judicious creation of redirects would assist readers further; for example, Stratford Festival of Canada would surely redirect to Stratford Shakespeare Festival once this article is moved (unless, of course, the Stratfords in PEI or Quebec have festivals of some sort; even so, the redirect may still be valid, and use of Template:Redirect should be considered). In some cases, it may simply be better to add entries to the "See also" sections of various articles, although that should be reserved for things associated with that article, not those with similar names.

So, to summarize: if the name is unique, don't disambiguate. If the concepts are related, find the common relation, and use that as a title for a disambiguation page linking to the various entries.

Let me illustrate this with an odd but useful example. If Stratford-upon-Avon had a festival called Stratford-upon-Avon Shakespeare Festival, it's Wikipedia article would be Stratford-upon-Avon Shakespeare Festival; further, if it was commonly referred to as Stratford Shakespeare Festival, then Stratford Shakespeare Festival would contain a note at the beginning of the article stating "For the festival in Stratford-upon-Avon, see Stratford-upon-Avon Shakespeare Festival." This kind of thing is quite common in Wikipedia. Mindmatrix 21:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Skeezix1000 (talk) 15:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you again for your patience. I have withdrawn my vote, not because I entirely agree with your arguments, but because the festival in Ontario is probably the most notable. I would like to make it clear that there really are different concepts with the same names. Here [5] is a page about the "famous Stratford Shakespeare Festival" that takes place in Stratford, Victoria, Australia.

If this move goes ahead, then it would be sensible to put disambiguation notes at the top of the page for Stratford, Victoria and for Complete Works (RSC festival). The latter was a "Shakespeare festival" that took place in Stratford-upon-Avon, so it would surely not be wrong to call it a "Stratford Shakespeare festival" (lowercase f, though), and I have seen it called that. All the best, Sam Staton (talk) 15:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Another comment. The phrase "Stratford Shakespeare festival" is not necessarily an official name, it is just a way of referring to "a festival involving Shakespeare that occurred/occurs in a town called Stratford". There are several of these, and I think it is best to argue in terms of notability rather than uniqueness. I believe that the Ontario festival is currently the biggest. Sam Staton (talk) 18:22, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Actors and actresses

It seems a pity to omit mention of the many internationally famous actors and actresses who have played roles in Stratford. The include these: Christopher Walken, Christopher Plummer, William Shatner, Colm Feore, Alec Guinness, Kenneth Welsh, Andrea Martin, Graham Greene, Saul Rubinek, Michael Burgess, John Neville, Margaret Tyzack, Robert Goulet, Henry Czerny, Eric McCormack, Len Cariou, Peter Donat, Sarah Polley, Blair Brown, Keene Curtis, Peter Ustinov, Jessica Tandy, Hume Cronyn, James Mason, Lloyd Bochner, William Petersen, David James Elliott, Michael Learned, Kim Hunter, Alan Scarfe, Jan Rubes, Jackie Burroughs, Douglas Rain, Geraint Wyn Davies, John Colicos, Alan Bates, Zoe Caldwell, Gwynyth Walsh, Kevin Anderson, Lorne Greene, Cedric Smith, Barbara March, Brian Bedford, Stephen Ouimette, Tom McCamus, Paul Scofield, Gordon Pinsent, Nick Mancuso, Julie Harris, Jeremy Brett, Maggie Smith, Gordon Jackson, Kathleen Widdoes, Scott Hylands, Scott Wentworth, Megan Follows, Jennifer Dale, Paul Gross, Ron O'Neal, Lila Kedrova, David Langton, Sharon Acker, Tammy Grimes, Kate Reid, Sada Thompson, Leonard Frey, Nicholas Pennell, Cynthia Dale, Donald Harron, Jonathan Crombie, Maureen Forrester, Douglas Campbell, Albert Schultz, Brent Carver, Patrick Crean, Martha Henry, Joseph Ziegler, C. David Johnson, Tony Van Bridge, Jeff Jones, Richard Monette, William Hutt, Bruno Gerussi Masalai (talk) 09:56, 20 August 2011 (UTC)