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All primary sources?
edit@Zangxuangao: I don't read Chinese but almost all the references in this article are to Zizhi Tongjian or similar chronicles and as such are primary sources (well, when they were published a thousand years ago they would have been considered secondary sources). I did a search through my university library and on google scholar for Suo Chen and the Jin Dynasty and I can't find anything. Can you find anything more recent? It doesn't have to be in English. AugusteBlanqui (talk) 08:54, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
@AugusteBlanqui It is true that all the sources here are mostly from the Zizhi Tongjian and the Book of Jin. Unfortunately, I do not have nor could find on the internet any recent sources that touch upon the subject. I have tried to find Chinese sources on him but all only mention him in passing. If I could find a more detailed source on the subject I would include them in the references. However I would like to ask one question. Does the Zizhi Tongjian not count as a secondary source? It was written and compiled roughly 800 years after the subject's period. Apologies if reply contain anything which comes off rude or offending Zangxuangao (talk) 11:12, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Zangxuangao: Oh yes, certainly by one understanding these chronicles are secondary sources. But historians today would treat these sources very carefully. To take an example I more familiar with, Ecclesiastical History of the English People is a crucially important source, but it is full of biases and other problems. The same is no doubt true of these Chinese chronicles. For example, the article claims: "Suo Chen asserted power over his territory, preserving the loyalty of both the Chinese and tribal people, and Cong's generals did not dare attack him" and cites the Book of Jin. Historians would take both the claim about loyalty and the fear of Cong's generals with more than a grain of salt. It's only a potential problem in this article because the entire article is based on these chronicles. Some editors may object to it based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources. This is why I am suggesting any source on Suo Chen--in whatever language--that is less than a hundred years old would be helpful. Maybe there is a mention of Suo Chen in some histories of the Jin Dynasty? Also, are there alternate spellings in English that we should try when looking for sources? AugusteBlanqui (talk) 11:30, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
@AugusteBlanqui ah, thanks for clearing that up. I have tried looking up what you have suggested but it seems that as of now there is no english sources that primarily covers the Jin Dynasty as a whole. There are books about the Six Dynasties, a period which includes Jin but I had no luck finding his name. I'm a bit puzzled at your last question? Are you refering to Suo Chen? If so, an alternate way to spell his name is Suo Lin (Lin is the old way of pronouncing Chen). Correct me if I am mistaken. Zangxuangao (talk) 14:53, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
- Suo Lin does show sources. https://www.jstor.org/stable/44743318 (page 9 of .pdf) and here: https://doi.org/10.1080/00094633.2018.1553456 (Suo Lin's biography referenced). There might be more. I don't have time to incorporate these sources this week. With the inclusion of these sources the article should be acceptable to most editors. However, it would probably benefit from an edit because it reads to much like the chronicles themselves. Are there any English translations of these? It's fine if not but I was thinking to include links to any translations as external links. AugusteBlanqui (talk) 15:30, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
- PS, I've marked the page as reviewed now and added another template that says 'sources exist.' Both templates can be removed as soon as the new sources are incorporated! AugusteBlanqui (talk) 15:32, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
- Suo Lin does show sources. https://www.jstor.org/stable/44743318 (page 9 of .pdf) and here: https://doi.org/10.1080/00094633.2018.1553456 (Suo Lin's biography referenced). There might be more. I don't have time to incorporate these sources this week. With the inclusion of these sources the article should be acceptable to most editors. However, it would probably benefit from an edit because it reads to much like the chronicles themselves. Are there any English translations of these? It's fine if not but I was thinking to include links to any translations as external links. AugusteBlanqui (talk) 15:30, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
@AugusteBlanqui thank you for finding the sources. I'll try editing the article to make it distinguishable from the chronicles. As for english translations, there are some online but none that I would consider 'official'. Zangxuangao (talk) 03:46, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
Cleaning up
editHi @Zangxuangao:, thanks for moving the page (and thanks for making it in the first place--brings back fond memories of my one semester of Chinese history I had as an undergraduate). I'm going to find some time to work on the page this week. The content that reads like a straight translation from the primary sources--we want to be careful here. Unless you did the translations yourself then the page may get into trouble with copy violation patrols. To be honest, it is probably better to have a shorter article that relies less on the primary sources, at least initially. If you have an questions or concerns keep posting them on this talk. AugusteBlanqui (talk) 08:42, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
@AugusteBlanqui you're most welcome. I'd also like to give my share of thanks to you for correcting my mistakes and offering me the help and advice. I'll be keeping them in mind when making any future articles on wikipedia. For now, I have nothing to ask. I wish you a great day. Zangxuangao (talk) 08:59, 12 May 2020 (UTC)