Talk:Surobi, Kabul

Requested move 2 August 2017

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved. There is a clear absence of consensus for the proposed move. bd2412 T 13:35, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

• Surobi, Kabul → Surobi
• Surobi → Surobi (disambiguation)

– This is the only relatively large sized town by the name "Surobi". The other settlements named "Surobi" in Paktika and Nangarhar are merely villages. Surobi in Kabul Province is also famous because of its proximity to three dams - Naghlu Dam, Mahipar Dam and Barqi-Surobi Dam. Most of the times when the word "Surobi" is used in references, it refers to the town in Kabul Province. Check for example this Google News result, which returns results overwhelmingly about the town in Kabul Province when "Surobi" is searched. Khestwol (talk) 20:51, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support as nom. Khestwol (talk) 10:01, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose we have two articles on the town and the urban area with twice the population. How are readers to know which is meant? In ictu oculi (talk) 11:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Which other article? There is one town named Surobi. The other settlements in Paktika and Nangarhar are villages, relatively unimportant if you check references. For example, in the Google News search linked above, can you find even a single reference to the Surobi settlements of Nangarhar or Paktika? All of the news pages refer to the Surobi town of Kabul Province. Here are the first five English-language results from the first page of the Google News link: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. You can also check all of the rest of the results as well, I found that all of the results for "Surobi" are about the Surobi town and district of Kabul Province located on the Kabul River. In these references, "Surobi" refers to the town on the Kabul River, while "Surobi District" (mostly a rural area) refers to the district of which the town Surobi is the capital and main population center. Khestwol (talk) 15:28, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

In ictu oculi (talk · contribs) still waiting for your response. Thanks, Khestwol (talk) 18:59, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Surobi District (Kabul) In ictu oculi (talk) 19:08, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

But why do you think so, although Google search has confirmed that "Surobi" alone is sufficient to refer to "Surobi, Kabul"? "Surobi" alone can identify the subject of this article. The current title therefore is not as concise as it should be -- it violates WP:CONCISE. Khestwol (talk) 19:44, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Because I always do a "X is" test in Google Books for any RM what I got was this: it seems to me that there is a great deal of confusion between the district and the town. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:15, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

The town is the capital of the district, the district is named after the town because the town is the main population center of the district. And both the town and district are part of Kabul Province. How does the disambiguator "Kabul" disambiguates the town from the district, when the district is also a part of Kabul Province? Please do note that the district is not outside Kabul, hence "Kabul" fails to disambiguate the town from the district. Nevertheless, as per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC we can use "Surobi" alone for the town. Khestwol (talk) 10:37, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support I would agree with Khestwol here because when one is talking about Surobi, nationally everyone expects that they are referring to the town and district in Kabul. I personally didn't even remember we had two other Surobis in Afghanistan. So it does make sense to have "Surobi" alone for the town and to be more specific for the other two. There is a reason why when you good Surobi, almost every source is about the town/district in Kabul Ketabtoon (talk) 18:39, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
• Comment: Neither wp:PLACEDAB nor wp:PLACE#Region-specific guidance say anything helpful to this particular case. Andrewa (talk) 05:44, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I think WP:PRIMARYTOPIC applies here. As demonstrated by the Google News search, the primary topic for "Surobi" is the Surobi of Kabul Province. Khestwol (talk) 06:23, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Agree that this RM hinges on PT, not entirely convinced that it's as one-sided as that. What interests me is the various disambiguators employed at Surobi (disambiguation). Should we aim for some consistency? Andrewa (talk) 07:09, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

However, In ictu oculi's rationale is not correct -- he wants to use "Kabul" to disambiguate Surobi town from Surobi district, although the district is also a part of Kabul Province. So adding "Kabul" does not serve this purpose. On the other hand, the settlements outside Kabul Province (in Paktika and Nangarhar Provinces) which are listed on Surobi (disambiguation) are not notably mentioned in any reliable sources as elaborated in Google links above. Hence WP:PRIMARYTOPIC easily applies. If there is any evidence to the contrary though, I will be glad to hear. Thanks, Khestwol (talk) 10:37, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Agree that there's a case for a move of some sort. But this move seems to make things worse rather than better. There must be other similar cases in Afghanistan and its neighbours... what is the pattern there? Andrewa (talk) 13:17, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

In both Pakistan and Afghanistan articles, the base name is usually the town/city name while the overall administrative unit is disambiguated by adding "District", "Province" etc to the name. For example, compare Swabi and Swabi District, and Kunduz and Kunduz Province etc. Khestwol (talk) 13:30, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

See #Discussion below. Andrewa (talk) 03:54, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. The DAB should stay at the base name for the moment. The immediate need is to sort out the disambiguators. Both Surobi and Surobi, Kabul are ambiguous. However, there is a pattern here, with the comma for disambiguation meaning town and (possibly unneeded) parenthetical disambiguation for districts. Is this a de facto convention? Andrewa (talk) 13:17, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

What pattern? You are not familiar apparently with naming conventions of Afghan geographic names. See Districts of Afghanistan. Everywhere where it's possible, the base name is kept for the town (WP:PRIMARYNAME) and there are no unnecessary parenthetical disambiguations for districts. The usual disambiguation is by keeping the base name for the town/city and adding the word "District" for the district which the town is part of. See Kabul and Kabul District. Khestwol (talk) 13:30, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

See #Discussion below. Andrewa (talk) 03:54, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose - I thought "Surobi" is some term from Africa or Japan. However, I found no other contenders outside Afghanistan. Speaking of Afghanistan, the statistics say that one from Kabul is more viewed than one from Nangarhar. However, the daily average is very small and not hitting double-digits. Also, both articles are still stubs or stub-like. How can one article with low daily average views be more primary than the other? Also, I don't see articles indicating significance over the other. George Ho (talk) 20:50, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Discussion

There are references above to how Pakistan and Afghanistan articles are usually named and naming conventions of Afghan geographic names. These seem to refer to practice rather than to any sort of guideline.

Practice does have some relevance in terms of consistency, but it would still be good to document this convention, and see whether it has support. Andrewa (talk) 03:54, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.