Talk:Kholodne, Donetsk Raion, Donetsk Oblast
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 | On 12 November 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Sverdlove to Kholodne, Donetsk Raion, Donetsk Oblast. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Requested move 12 November 2023
edit- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) EggRoll97 (talk) 00:26, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
- Sverdlove → Kholodne, Donetsk Raion, Donetsk Oblast
- Voikovskyi → Kopani, Donetsk Raion, Donetsk Oblast
– I decided to make this a (limited) multimove because I realized - belatedly - that it's pretty annoying to have numerous move discussions where the exact same arguments are being repeated in parallel.
The name "Sverdlove" is completely unheard of in English-language sources past 2016. See this Google research [1]. I get exactly zero results with Google Books and News. Same goes for Kholodne.[2]
For "Voikovskyi", the same results were found, with zero human-written English coverage.[3] I also searched for all the spelling variations I could think of and still got nothing. (I didn't bother trying to search for sources with the new name because there are so many settlements with that name in Ukraine that I thought it would be basically impossible to narrow the search to just the one in Donetsk Raion.)
In the absence of the old name being the WP:COMMONNAME, we should use the official name given to these settlements by the Ukrainian government that is legally recognized as having sovereignty over it. See WP:UAPLACE, and precedents at Talk:Buran, Ukraine and Talk:Sofiivka, Horlivka Raion, Donetsk Oblast. HappyWith (talk) 04:16, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- I object applying UAPLACE to localities which have never bee held by Ukraine after they have been renamed. You can only rename something you control, otherwise the rename is just on paper and does not affect the locality in any way. See my more extended arguments at Talk:Telmanove. The nominator consistently ignores my argument and continues nominating Ukrainian localities which have no COMMONNAME pretending that UAPLACE has any official status. Ymblanter (talk) 09:08, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
The nominator consistently ignores my argument
it's not like anyone's arguments are set in stone and cannot be challenged. You voice your opinion and others voice theirs. Usually most people support the move (not always) and consensus is formed. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 10:53, 12 November 2023 (UTC)- Consensus is consistently unswayed by these arguments. Maybe there’s a takeaway. —Michael Z. 15:13, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed with what Michael said - also worth noting that several of these RMs have already been closed with consensus to move. This exact same opposing argument was not considered convincing in either of those. HappyWith (talk) 22:11, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support per nom. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 10:53, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support both moves per nom. Would also like to point out that even if UAPLACE isn't official policy, it still matters. Cheers, Dan the Animator 22:04, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support. Some sources suggested in WP:WIAN have updated the names of these places since their 2016 renaming:
- The move is supported by WP:MODERNPLACENAME, whether we refer to UAPLACE or not. The appeal to “you can only rename something you control” has no basis in our policies. English-language article titling comes from the guidelines, evidence in reliable sources, and consensus, not by imposition by military occupiers. WP:PLACE sums it up succinctly: “By following modern English usage, we also avoid arguments about what a place ought to be called, instead asking the less contentious question, what it is called.”
- The move also supports WP:CONSISTENCY: other places in Ukraine, occupied or not, go by their modern Ukrainian name, not one imposed by earlier colonial empires, nor recent or current wartime occupation: Luhansk not “Lugansk,” Dnipro not “Dnipropetrovsk,” “Yekaterinoslav,” &c., the Donbas not the “Donbass,” Bakhmut not “Artemivsk” or “Artemovsk,” Kyiv not “Kiev,” etcetera. —Michael Z. 16:41, 13 November 2023 (UTC)