Talk:Svetozar Boroević/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Discussion

I'm still not sure whether it's Borojević or Boroević. It reminds me of Reljković vs. Relković in the case of Matija Antun Relkovic. --Joy [shallot] 14:44, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

actually his full name was Svetozar Boroevic (Borojevic) von Bojna. just like if you look at "Joseph Radetzky von Radetz". the article was actually started under that name, i think it should be put back. Antares911 23:02, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As I stated on Antares911's talk page already, I don't think that the von Bojna honorific is important or relevant enough to be in the title. It's a mixture of German and Croatian and I think it's sufficient that we describe it in the article content. It's also interesting to note that he had it for the 15 years of his life, but received it when he was 49. --Joy [shallot] 10:54, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A stupid question: is he really the first "non-German" Austro-Hungarian marshal? He was preceded by Radetzky, a Czech, after all--unless, one thinks the Czech nobility in the 19th Century were really Germanic anyways? --h27kim 2:15, 20 Mar, 2006 (PST).

Joseph_Radetzky_von_Radetz states he was from Bohemian nobility. Irwing 07:13, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Radetzky was also not an AH marshall, since the country as established by the compromise technically did not exist until 9 years after his death. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.55.64.15 (talk) 21:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't this guy an orthodox Croat?Carib canibal (talk) 13:46, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

His denomination is noted in the article, so not sure what aspect this question seeks to address.

a. He was a 'Hrvat pravoslavne vjere', a Croat of the Orthodox faith. So, yes. b. Had he lived in the 1990s (or even 1940s), we might be describing him as a Croatian Serb or Krajina Serb. Serb or Serbian (the distinction is an English-language one) would refer to the newly-resurrected neighbouring state. The Habsburg Empire was so multicultural, his denomination was not the threat it might have been in a 'nation-state'. The Habsburgs were strongly Catholic, but the Empire relied on Jewish & Protestant leaders, whilst Orthodox and Moslem contributions just added to the mix. c. Just to clarify the subtleties of Habsburg administration. From 1868, Croatia came under the Kingdom of Hungary, not the Germano-Austrian side of the Dual Monarchy. The Austrian side was divided into more than a dozen provinces, that assisted a regional/national identity (ie. Czech Bohemia & Moravia), whereas Hungary was a single bloc (ie. the 'Romanians' of Hungary were included as 'Hungarians', even though they wereclearly not Magyars). The exception, however, was Croatia, which did have autonomy: it sent MPs to the Hungarian parliament, but also had home-rule with its own Sabor, or Assembly, and even its own Army, the Domobranstvo. The point of labouring this is to compare the position of Croatia in, say, 1917 with that of, say 1919. That, in turn, goes a long way to explain the response in 1941. d. After four years of war and occupation one could hardly blame the Serbian leadership for creating 'Serbo-slavia' after 1918 and rejecting the offers from very experienced 'Habsburg' Slavs such as Boroevic, but it will be one of the great 'what ifs' of history if the phrase 'in victory: magnanimity' was understood in Serbo-Croat and a true kingdom of Serb, Croat & Slovene equals, under the monarchy could have been created. Serbia would have derived benefits from accepting the multinational and international experience of its 'Habsburg' contributors and might have avoided the splits of the 1940s and 1980s. The only successful ruler of the South Slav union was the one from a minority nation (ie. Tito). Nationalism is never attractive if there is more than one nationality in a nation... 89.242.110.194 (talk) 13:11, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I note that B. von B.'s titles are not mentioned in the pre-amble. Warum? a. there is a reference to his being the Knight of the Isonzo. b. there is mention of his MMTO (Military Maria-Theresia Order) which confers the aforementioned knighthood. c. a Ritter of suitable eminence could suggest himself worthy of advancement to Baron. B.von B. was one of only six non-royal (k.u.k.!) Field Marshals during more than four years of war on about four different theatres. That sounds pretty eminent enough... Every other non-royal Field Marshal had a peerage. The implication is he did he not get his. 89.242.110.194 (talk) 13:11, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Nationality

He declared as a Croat multiple times in his letters. So I'm asking if I could make a paragraph about his Nationality. I will translate all his letters in which he declares as a Croat.Crabath (talk) 18:05, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Since he was born in Croatia, he's definitely Croatian.
Serb Orthodox Church didn't have iurisdiction over area westwards of Drina. That changed after 1918.. Borojević's village of birth was under iurisdiction of Metropolitanate of Karlovci (1691-1848), that had iurisdiction over Orthodox Serbs, Romanians, Greeks and Cincars that lived in the Habsburg Monarchy (article misses important community of Orthodox Croats). So, his family definitely wasn't from Serb Orthodox Church. Kubura (talk) 03:28, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

On Nationality: The only point one should mention is the fact that he was a member of the orthodox church, also self-declarations are valid if they are properly sourced, but in fact they are completely useless to further understanding of Boroevic as a person. What should be stressed is the fact that he was a member of an imperial officers class, thus had far more in common with other military persons than with other people speaking some sort of south slavic language and belonging to some sort of christian faith. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.170.63.26 (talk) 13:27, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Kubura be careful, Croat Orthodox was invention of ustashies

I agreee with - Borojević's village of birth was under iurisdiction of Metropolitanate of Karlovci (1691-1848), - , he was born in 1856, but not in Croatia, be accurate, he was born in the part of Military Frontier of Austrian empire, that was incorporeted in Croatia in Hungary in 1881. So if everyone who is born on the teritory of todays Croatia is a Croat, then Milan Martić is Croat? Or maybe you claim that all so called Serbs of Croatia do not exist. Do you want to say that there are no Serbs in Croatia? Or that at year 1856 when Borojevic and Nikola Tesla were born Serbs of Croatia did not know that they were Serbs? What are we talking about? Revesion of the history? According to your logic ban Josip Jelačić is a Serb, because he was born on the theritory that belongs today to Serbia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.91.1.42 (talk • contribs) 13:16, 14 April 2009

Why should I be "careful"?
"Croat Orthodox was invention of ustashies"? Wrong. Unfortunately, currently is unavailable the work of Emil Heršak, Esperienze storiche e l'etnogenesi dei popoli dell'ex-Jugoslavia . [1] (dead link). The site was reorganized after 2006. See also Documenti triestini from Italian author Scipio Slataper (in Croazia per esempio ci sono più di 2000 croati ortodossi) That text was written in Triest, on August 13 1914. Tell us, please, which ustashies existed 15 years before that movement was established. 147.91.1.42, please, don't speak about the things that you know nothing about.
If you want to suggest that I'm spreading some "ustashi invention", than remember: this, what you wrote, is etiquetting. That kind of behaviour is not allowed on Wikipedia. You're warned. Please, read WP:ETIQ.
Milan Martić: if he's born in Croatia and had citizenship of Socialist Republic of Croatia, he's Croatian, not Croat.
Military Frontier was finally reincorporated (re-, because it was returned) into Croatia in 1882. If that was "nobody's land" or "land that by no basis belonged to Kingdom of Croatia", the Habsburgs wouldn't reincorporated it to Croatia. Kubura (talk) 01:48, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Are Croats Hungarians?

There was no Croat cytizenship before 1990s.
"Since he was born in Croatia, he's definitely Croatian" says Kubura.
Since Croatia was part of Hungary, according to your logic all Croats are Hungarians? ("Come on all Hungarians on Wikipedia start changing croat articles, since all great Croats were born in Hungary". Was Ante Kovačić Hungarian or Austrian?
Borojevic was hungarian nobelman (1905) so was he Hungarian? He died as Austrian citizen, so was he Austrian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.91.1.42 (talk • contribs) 13:16, 14 April 2009

Put it this way: was Karađorđe Turk? Or Vuk Karadžić? As far as I know, at that time Serbia was integral part of Ottoman Empire. Not a country that freely chose Turkish crown. Just as any other Ottoman province in Kurdistan, Central Anadolia etc..
Croatia was after 1102 in the personal union of Croatia and Hungary, a union of two countries united through a person of a King. Learn that. Similar cases are ones of Poland and Lithuania, England and Hannover. Later the kings of Hungary-Croatia kings weren't neither Magyars, but of French (Anjou), Luxemburg (Luxemburgs), Lithuanian (Jagiello) and south Germany (Habsburgs). What do you think, that Hungary has made an agreement (Croatian-Hungarian Agreement) with itself in 1868?
Whose ban (to uninformed users, ban is a title in the rank of viceroy) told whome "regno regnum non praescribit leges"? (it was in 1790.; Croatian ban Ivan Erdödy on the joint Croatian-Hungarian Assembly in Buda (today Budapest)).
Be serious. Don't mess into things that you don't know. Kubura (talk) 00:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

442 Borojevics murdered in Independent State of Croatia concetration camp Jasenovac

Your claims are in line with some of the worst pages of Croatian history (1/3, you understand that). Croatian Orthodox Church is invention of Ustashi nazi regime, be careful. "It was intended as a national church to which Serbs living in Croatia would be forced to convert, thus making it possible to describe them as "Croats of Orthodox faith". It had little or no popular support".
Father of Borojević was born in Knezovljani near village Borojevići and village Umetić, where Svetozar Borojević was born. There is until know identified 35 Borojevics from Knezovljani as victims of Independent State of Croatia concetracion camp Jasenovac, out of 442 Borojevics from that part of todays Croatia, as well as 24 Kovarbasics.
https://cp13.heritagewebdesign.com/~lituchy/victim_search.php?field=&searchtype=contains... - 54k (Just type BOROJEVIĆ). See also offical records in Republic of Croatia of victims and on nationality of Borojevics murdered in Jasenovac (http://www.jusp-jasenovac.hr Spomen Područje Jasenovac).
Why were they murderd? Only because they did not want to become "Orthodox Croats". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.91.1.42 (talk • contribs) 13:16, 14 April 2009

"Your claims are in line with some of the worst pages of Croatian history" "...inventions of ustashi nazi regime...".
Again I see that you're trying to discredit me. Again you violate WP:ETIQ.
You're trying to draw the discussion into completely other direction and to "win" it etiquetting the opponent.
Orthodox Croats: Documenti triestini from Italian author Scipio Slataper (in Croazia per esempio ci sono più di 2000 croati ortodossi) That text was written in Triest, on August 13 1914, 15 years before ustashi movement was established.
Use toilet paper. Don't use Wikipedia for your writings about "ustashi inventions".
Svetozar Borojević declared himself as Croat. Live with that. It's the other thing that Greater Serbian propaganda brainwashed Croatian Vlachs, that until deeply in 19th c. declared as "Croats of Orthodox faith". Or you find Petar Preradović, August Harambašić, Dimitrije Demeter, mother of Ante Starčević, general Milan Uzelac, Fedor Dragojlov as Serbs. Kubura (talk) 01:48, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Svetozar, his brother Nikola and sister Ljubica were childern of of a Serb Orthodox father Adam Borojević, and Serb Orthodox mother Stana Kovarbašić

No serious scholar in Croatia nor enywhere alse in the world would question that Metropolitanate of Karlovci, and Patriarchate (since 1848) was Serbian. It was creted in 1691, after Great Serb Migration and first metropolitan was Arsenije III Čarnojević, the Archbishop of Peć and Patriarch of Serbs. All metropolitans were Serbs.
At the May Assembly in Karlovci in 1848, the Serbs living in the Habsburg Monarchy proclaimed the creation of the Serbian Vojvodina, a Serb autonomous region within the Monarchy. The metropolitan of Karlovci, Josif Rajačić, was also proclaimed a patriarch, thus the Metropolitanate of Karlovci became a Patriarchate.
In the same year when the Patriarchate of Karlovci was created, the Romanians that were previously under jurisdiction of the Metropolitanate of Karlovci proclaimed their separation from the Serbian church, and creation of their own. However, this was not recognized in that time, thus the separate Romanian church was created in 1864, by the emperor's decree.
The Romanians were the only significant group of belivers after Serbs in Metropolitanate of Karlovci. Greeks and Cincars were small communities. Orthodox Croats are invention of Ustashies.
Svetozar was born of Serb orthodox parents, both, father and mother.
So Kubura find proof that Adam Borojević or Stana Kovarbašić were Orthodox Croats, since you are first to claim that. Until you find proof that Borojevići from viligies Knezvoljani, Borojevići and Umetić are Croats, it should stay that Svetozar was born of Serb Orthodox parents. Then we will proceed this discussion on your page. It is shame not to show to everyone what is your ideology and claims.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.91.1.42 (talk • contribs) 13:16, 14 April 2009

No, you have to prove that they declared as Serbs. Here's about Svetozar [2].
And this, one of many of his letters, where he declared himself as Croat:
Telegramme to National Council of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs, November 1, 1918:
"Odredbe Narodnog vijeća o željeznicama za koje sam saznao tijekom noći u najkraćem će vremenu vojsku učiniti bespomoćnom zbog nedostatka hrane i posljedice će biti katastrofalne za južnoslavenska područja jer će horde nedisciplinirane vojske i Talijana, koji se ne mogu u ovom trenutku zaustaviti, nahrupiti preko Kranjske i Hrvatske i zato Vas molim ne kao general, ne kao posljednji sin zemlje već kao domoljub koji svoju domovinu voli isto tako kao i svaki drugi Hrvat i apeliram na domoljublje NV da se ukinu ove odredbe koje bio pretvorile vojsku u horde koje bi uništile posljednje tekovine. Neka željeznički promet bude slobodan [3].
Letter to Slavko Kvaternik from 1919:
"Dragi Slavko! ... Zahvaljujem Vam na pokušajima rehabilitacije. Budući da ne poznajem prilike u Hrvatskoj, prepuštam Vam sve odluke. Bilo bi mi žao ako bi mi se pred zemljacima u Hrvatskoj tek na traženje Srbije osigurala zadovoljština. Postoji li mogućnosti da se cijeli zapisnik, naravno preveden, preda Obzoru na objavljivanje s mojim komentarom o mom svjetonazoru kao Hrvata i utjecaju u prilog Južnih Slavena tijekom rata?... Srdačno, Vaš stari Boroević, feldmaršal. " [4]. Kubura (talk) 01:48, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Kubura claims that Serbs of Croatia are not Serbs, nor Slavs but Croatian Vlachs

Why would someone who wants to contribute to Wikipedia SINE IRA ET STUDIO and in BONA FIDE choose such an aggressive nickname as handgun (in Turkish -Kubura) ?

Kubura says: “It's the other thing that Greater Serbian propaganda brainwashed Croatian Vlachs, that until deeply in 19th c. declared as "Croats of Orthodox faith".

This is very close to denial of existance of Serbs in Croatia, the claim that Serbs of Croatia, who speak Shtokavian dialect of Slavic language are not Slavs, but Vlachs, who speak in Balkans diferent languages, but with rooth in Latin language? Very often Muslims called Serbs Vlachs. For various use of term Vlach see articel in Wikipedia: “Through history, the term "Vlach" was often used for groups which were not ethnically Vlachs, often pejoratively - for example for any shepherding community, or for Christians by Muslims.

That Serbs of Croatia, officialy recognised largest minority in Republic of Croatia, are not Slavs but have non-Slavic Vlach origin is not accepted in Wikipedia, nor in sciense, nor in Republic of Croatia, it is just a strange, funny theory close to theoris of Iranian descent of Croats etc.

To deny Serb identity history culture and origin of Serbs of Krayna, Croatia, would not try to do someone who takes care not to support ustashi teories.

To support idea of Croat Orthodox is defenetly in line with some of the worst pages of Croatian history (1/3, you understand that). Croatian Orthodox Church is invention of Ustashi nazi regime, Wikipedia says: "It was intended as a national church to which Serbs living in Croatia would be forced to convert, thus making it possible to describe them as "Croats of Orthodox faith". It had little or no popular support".

When I told you in a friendly tone be carful, I thougth that you, would never support ideas on which was created ustashi Croatian Orthodox Church. But obviously I was wrong.

Quoting Scipio Slataper s , “an Italian language writer from Trieste, most famous for his lyrical essay My Karst”, private letters where he is discussing relation between Serbs and Croats in relation to Orthodox or Catholic religion (Serbs catholics, 2 000 Croatian catholics) makes no sence. First it is a private letter, not study from history, then, he discussis some possibilities and not quoting anything, then it is not clear what he means by croatian catholics – few ethnic Croats that have converted for some reasons to Orthodoxy, or Croatian Orthodox meaning people who are inhabitants of Croatia that are Orthodox (like Serbs of Croatia). Also he is defintily not an expert on matter because his only relation to Borojevic is that he was killed by Borojevic s soldiers in the Battel of the Isonzio on the hills surrounding the town of Gorizia in 1915. You certainly know how thankful are your neighbors Slovens to Borojevic, because he protected them from Italians.

So it is not reliable source for your claim. No one is here discussing wether there are few Croats that are Orthodox, I perslonaly know some of them, including one monk in Serbian monastey of Hilandar on Mount Athos. We are also not discussing italian sources, since, there are dozen of italian sources on non Croat and not Slav origin of chakavian Croats on Croatian islands, but it is not widely accepted in sicence, and on Wikipedia, same as is the case with theory you are supporting that Serbs in Umetici, Knezovljani, Borojevici did not know until "deeply in 19th c.” that they are Serbs, but Croatian Vlachs, and then someone brainwashed them (you would like to accuse Serbian Orthodox Church, but here you are careful), and they in two (or one) decades became Serbs.

No matter how strongy emotionally You would like this to be true, leave that for your narow circel of friends. We are discussing historic facts that are widely accepted in science until now. Maybe I am supporting your claims on Croatian Wikipedia that chakavians are the purest Croats, but I am not placing that in public (Wikipedia).

This might have been only accademic discussion, but it has some political implications, because forcing people to be Croatian Orthodox was a systematic, organized by ustashi Independent State of Croatia state teror, and there are identified until now 442 members of Borojevic family murderd in Concentration camp Jasenovac because they did not want to be Orthodox Croats (some of them were generation of Svetozar, and his brother and sister, the others were just Serb Orthodox babes). Did you get it! That is the reason why I was shocked with the thesis you are supporting, and that is the reason why I told you to take care. Speaking of etiquetting, only someone who does not see this danger is etiquetting himself (and declaring) as supporter of such an idea ( Croatian Orthodox).

That Svetozar Borojevic`s family background is Serb Orthodox is widely accepted on Wikipedia and in sources

We are here discussing only Svetozar`s Serb parents. We shall discuss his letters on German (and translated to Slavic language) later, and those written in 1918 on Slavic language too.

1. First Wikipedia:

First on article on Svetozar Borojevic should be apllied the same rules as for article Nikola Tesla, since they were both born in 1856 in Military Frontier. After long lasting debate there is now discent text on Tesla family background.

“Tesla was born in the village of Smiljan near the town of Gospić, Austrian Empire, Croatian Krajina. He was an ethnic Serb subject of the Austrian Empire”

(By the way, Svetozar is predominantly Serb name, given to Serbian childern at that time).

On Wikipedia is widely accepted that Svetozar is borne in Serb Orthodox family. One could see German, Slovene etc:

• (Italian) Borojević nacque in una famiglia serbo-ortodossa nel paesino di Umetić presso Kostajnica (Croazia). La
• (German) Svetozar Boroëvić wurde 1856 in Umetići bei Kostajnica als Angehöriger einer serbischen, orthodoxen Familie der Militärgrenze geboren.
• (Bosnian ) Borojević je rođen 1856. godine u selu Umetići, blizu Kostajnice, u Austro-Ugarskoj. Porodica mu je imala dugu vojničku tradiciju (otac Adam, Srbin, austrougarski oficir), pa je tako i Svetozar još u mladosti usvojio osjećaj za stegu i čast, te se i sam odlučio za vojnički poziv.
• (Polish) Rodil se je v družini pravoslavnega Srba, krajišniškega častnika.[1]

Urodził się w prawosławnej serbskiej rodzinie.

• On Croat Wikipedia it is not discussed ethnicity of his family. But the greater part of the articel is translation from site in English in which is stated that he is born in Krajina Serb Orthodox family (this is simply omitted in Croatian Wikipdia). See: Compare with the article on Croatian Wikipedia. On the talk page of Croat Wikipedia one could see voices of reason among the Croat contributors.

On Croat Wikipedia they say that Borojevic was Croatian general, and same on nucleus of the articel in French. We are not talking about that now, but it is strange how could he be Croat general, when there was no Croat army, there was austro-hungarian army at that time. He is not Gotovina, who is Croat general, or Slavko Kvaternik who is Croat general of Independent State of Croatia. Svetozar was fieldmarshal of austro-hungarian army, everyone knows that.

2. Sources:

Now we shall analyse sources for Biography of Svetozar Borojevic.

There would be soon only one reliable book on Borojevic written by Croatian historian, prof. Dr Drago Roksandić, professor of History at the University of Zagreb: monography, Svetozar Borojevic, Lion of Fox from the Isonzo. In presentation of the book is stated that Borojevic was born in Serb Orthodox family http://www.srbi-zagreb.hr/arhiva.php?id=13612&kat=237 - 40k. http//www.srbi-zagreb.hr/arhiva.php?id=13612&kat=237 - 40k (KUBURA HAS REMOVED THIS LINK)

In English there are now following references. First let us see the refferences in English because referencies in English have priority on English Wikipedia. There are 3 of them.

• The Leadership in Austria-Hungary during WWI: “Svetozar Boroevic was born in the village of Umetic near Kostajnica on 13 December 1856. His family was Krajina Serb of the Orthodox faith.” http://www.geocities.com/veldes1/boroevic.html Field Commanders in WWI (KUBURA HAS REMOVED THIS LINK, TOO)

• The other one . http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/biog/boroevic.htm says nothing on his family background: „Svetozar Boroević von Bojna was born on the 13th December 1856 in Umetić in the Kostajnica district of the Military Border”. There is that: " in his case as a Hungarian" or .... After the war he, as a convinced Croat, decided to become a citizen of the new created SHS-state but he was not welcomed there and so he was forced to return to Austria. But we shall discuss this later, we are talking about his family background.

• There is one article in Croatian newspaper (Feral Tribune) where the author ridiculates claims that Borojevic was Croat (...It must be the irony of folly that the author proclaims the Serb Svetozar Borojevic, Austro-Hungarian feldmarshal from W.W.I, for the most glorious Croatian warrior...) *[5]

There are 3 sites about Svetozar Borojevic in Serbian and Croatian languages.

• First one is official site of officialy recognized Serb minority in Croatia official associaccion Council of the Serb national minority for city of Zagreb: It is a article on promotion of the materials for the book of Svetozar Borojevic Lion, or Fox etc, monography written by prof. Dr Drago Roкsandic, Croatian professor of History at the University of Zagreb, Croatia. There also could be read that radical Croat nationalist Frankovci named after Josip Frank vandalized graves of father and mother of Svetozar Borojevic, because they were Orthodox Serbs, c. 1914, etc, as well as that Council of the Serb national minority has visited Borojevics birthplace an oirganized Orthodox ceremony in remembrance of Borojevic etc http://www.srbi-zagreb.hr/arhiva.php?id=13612&kat=237 - 40k. (KUBURA HAS REMOVED THIS LINK)

• Second one is article on celebration of 150 years since Svetozar Borojevic was born organized by officialy recognized Serb minority in Croatia official associaccion Serb national Assembly (Srpsko nacionalno vijece) http://www.srbi-zagreb.hr/arhiva.php?id=13612&kat=237 - 40k. It is a article on promotion of the materials for the book of Svetozar Borojevic Lion, or Fox etc, monography written by prof. Dr Drago Rosandic, Croatian professor of History at the University of Zagreb, Croatia. Here we could see that Svetozar Borojevic was born in Serb Orthodox family, that his predicate Von Bojna comes from his mothers native village Bojna (Glina) etc. (KUBURA HAS REMOVED THIS LINK)

• Third one, to Kubura dearest one is site of catalogue of the exibition that took place in Zagreb on 150 anniversery of Borojevic. The largest part of catalogue is translation from German, because the same exibition took part in Wien previously. That catalogue transalted from German, the language in wchich Borojevic used to speak until 1918, is the only one (in Croat version) where someone had tried in text not signed by an author to claim that Borojevic felt as Croat, but very carfeuly, and with not that his parents were Orthodox Croats.

SO, NO ONE IS STATING THAT PARENTS OF SVETOZAR BOROJEVIC WERE CROATIAN ORTHODOX, EXEPT KUBURA, WHO IS IN DANGER TO BE SEEN AS MORE NATIONALY RADICAL AND REVISIONST OF THE HISTORY THEN ANYONE ELSE TODAY. To repeat, we are just disccusing the existing sources Svetozar Borojevic familly background.

Kubura I know that there are no good proofs for you. If Svetozar Borojevic himself could somehowe speak to you. And if he personally would tell you that his parents were Orthodox Serbs, you would deny that.

All your motivations comes from that prejudice. If you want Borojevic so badly maybe we could agree to give it to you, he is not serbian hero. But, no one could ever give you all those Borojevics that were murdered in Jasenovac camp simply because they did not want to accept the theory that they were Orthodox Croats.

Since he was born in Croatia, he's definitely Croatian" says Kubura.

You know very well what are we talking about. Stop playing games. There is difference between Serb and Serbian in Serbian (Srbin, Srbijanac), but there is no difference between Croat and Croatian in Croatian (Hrvat i Hrvatinac ?). There is no Hrvatinac or something. So you would not fool anyone with these gramatical and stylistic games. There is no difference in English, either.

If anyone would like to accept that funny theory that has no one alse in Europe (See Wikipedia), that everyone born on the theriory of Croatia is Croat it could not apply to Borojevic, again. I know all arguments and historic reasons why Krayina was incorporated to Croatia. But at the time when he was born it was not Croatia. Later, Triunion was not independent state, it was not accepted in Austro-Hungary completely (Dalmatia). There was no citizenship of Croatia until 1990s. What level of organization within the state is acceptable for determination that someone is Croat or Hungrian, or austrian, or austro-hungarian. There was no independent Croat nobility, all nobility was Hungarian. Borojevic was member of Hungarian nobility. If we follow your principle we are getting funny results. Janjevci born in Janjevo, had serbian citizenship in 1990s, so they are Serbian Catholics, or Albanians that have Serbian passports are Serbian muslims? Did you get it, now.

What am I saying every single case has to be analysed. Joseph Frank is croatian politician, because he acted in a radical Croat way in Croat Sabor etc, but ethnicaly he was 100% Jew, and he was born in Jewish family (of ethnical and religious Jews), later he converted to Catholicism.

Kubura`s violation of Wikipedia rules

Besides politicaly dangerous theory of Orthodox Croats that was instituted in nazi pupet Independent State of Croatia, Kubura has also violated Wikipedia rules:

1. Kubura says: Use toilet paper. Don't use Wikipedia for your writings about "ustashi inventions".

This is unacceptable way of discussing on Wikipedia.

2. Kubura has removed links, references, one in English and two in Serbian, and left one in English and one in Croatian, wich was not done in bona fide, but was attepmt to hide information that were different from those he wants to show.

• http://www.geocities.com/veldes1/boroevic.html Field Commanders in WWI Svetozar Boroevic was born in the village of Umetic near Kostajnica on 13 December 1856. His family was Krajina Serb of the Orthodox faith.”
• http://www.srbi-zagreb.hr/arhiva.php?id=13612&kat=237 - 40k. It is a article on promotion of the materials for the book of Svetozar Borojevic Lion, or Fox etc, monography written by prof. Dr Drago Rosandic, Croatian professor of History at the University of Zagreb, Croatia. Here we could see that Svetozar Borojevic was born in Serb Orthodox family, that his predicate Von Bojna comes from his mothers native village Bojna (Glina) etc.
• It is a article on promotion of the materials for the book of Svetozar Borojevic Lion, or Fox etc, monography written by prof. Dr Drago Rosandic, Croatian professor of History at the University of Zagreb, Croatia. There also could be read that radical Croat nationalist Frankovci named after Josip Frank vandalized graves of father and mother of Svetozar Borojevic, because they were Orthodox Serbs, c. 1914, etc, as well as that Council of the Serb national minority has visited Borojevics birthplace and organized Serb Orthodox ceremony in remembrance of Borojevic etc http://www.srbi-zagreb.hr/arhiva.php?id=13612&kat=237 - 40k.

Since this was violation and hiding of sources, I would undo Kuburas changes.

Vandalisms

First, sign your messages.
Second. Dear unregistered user, you're the one that is hiding behind the anonimous IP. I'm registered user. I contribute under my nickname, so everybody knows who posted what. It's easy to see what have I posted all the times. In your case, that's not possible.
Third, you are the one that is filtering the information. Although Boroević was born in Croatia, you hide that fact [6] (your edit from 16:10, 21 April 2009). Knezovljani are in Croatia. You've deleted that. That's vandalism.
Fourth, you said "That Serbs of Croatia, officialy recognised largest minority in Republic of Croatia, are not Slavs but have non-Slavic Vlach origin is not accepted in Wikipedia, nor in sciense, nor in Republic of Croatia, it is just a strange, funny theory close to theoris of Iranian descent of Croats etc". Here you have violated WP:OR (no original work). You don't know things you're talking about. Balkan Vlachs were Slavicized. You're supposed to know that. Some of Vlachs later assimilated into Croats, some into Serbs. "Not accepted in Wikipedia". You've lied. Read article Vlachs. Chapter "Territories with Vlach population". " many other vlachs could be found all over the Balkans...and as far south as the present-day Croatia where most of them would take a Serbian identity ".
Fifth. Quoting that letter is showing the evidence of time. Many personal letters and texts from archives and tradebooks are not written by scientists, but they are still the evidence of time, and these sources are used in scientific works. "what he means by croatian catholics – few ethnic Croats that have converted for some reasons to Orthodoxy, or Croatian Orthodox meaning people who are inhabitants of Croatia that are Orthodox (like Serbs of Croatia)". Are you playing dumb or what? In that same letter he mentions Catholic Serbs. He's definitely making distinguishment between "Croat" and "Serb". But obviously you don't read the quoted work.
Sixth, you're right. Slovenians are our dear friends.
Seventh, about "brainwashing" and not tolerating the fact that there're other Orthodox Slavs which are not Serbs. What was/is the attitude of Serbian Orthodox Church towards Montenegrin and Macedonian Orthodox Church? Not to mention Croatian Orthodox Church.
Eighth. "442 members of Borojevic family murderd in Concentration camp Jasenovac ". Do you want me to tell you the stories about the crimes that were committed by italianized Croats against Croats in WWII? Croats against Croats. It wasn't the first time.
Ninth. There're some things you should know about Drago Rosandić. I'll post them later.
Tenth. He was Croatian general. Read his personal letters. If you can't live with that fact, that's your problem. Croatian-Hungarian Agreement was an agreement between two sides, Croatia and Hungary. Or you want to say that this Agreement never existed? That Croatian, Hungarian and Austrian historiography are making things up, and that you're the sole smart guy? "when there was no Croat army". Really? What about Domobrans? Whose Army were Horvatsko domobranstvo? Kubura (talk) 16:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

"Why would someone who wants to contribute to Wikipedia SINE IRA ET STUDIO and in BONA FIDE choose such an aggressive nickname as handgun (in Turkish -Kubura) ". You're etiquetting again. You haven't read WP:ETIQ. What's next? You'll find that the name of FC Arsenal and its nick "gunners" is "aggressive"? Will you kick them out of Premiership? Do you find the name of FC Borac ("fighter") from Banja Luka as "aggressive"?
As I see here [7], unregistered user doesn't recognize the existence of Croatia, or at least, supports the dismembering of Croatia "To deny Serb identity history culture and origin of [[Serbs of Krayna]], Croatia, would not try to do someone who takes care not to support ustashi teories". Dear child, there're only Serbs of Croatia for you, no any "Krayna". That "Krayna" is a creation of greaterserbianist campaign of conquest of Croatia.
Slataper explicitly mentioned Orthodox Croats and Catholic Serbs. Don't try to get away. I've proven that you are wrong. Obviously, the term is much older than Ustashi movement, he used it. Ne pokušavaj se izvlačit.
"Svetozar is predominantly Serb name, given to Serbian childern at that time". Many Slavic names existed among Catholic Croats (including name Nemanja), but many were not given after the Council of Trent, because these were considered as kind of pagan names, and mostly the Saint's names were given afterwards.
"On Wikipedia is widely accepted that Svetozar is borne in Serb Orthodox family. One could see German, Slovene etc:". What does that prove? That several Wikipedias do copy-paste of somebody's stereotype? Or that same user wrote certain lines in few "key" Wikipedias, and someone later translated them into its language. We can write now that Borojević was born in Chinese family, and someone can translate that into Wikipedias on Swahili, Hindi, Laotan, Cebuano, Korean, Chinese Mandarin language. Shall we use than the argument "it is widely accepted in Wikipedia"?
"His family was Krajina Serb of the Orthodox faith".
" official associaccion Serb national Assembly (Srpsko nacionalno vijece)". What's the attitude of that association towards liberating actions of Croatian Army from 1991-1995? Is that association the association that has amnesia about crap that was done by greaterserbianists on occupied Croatian territory and on free territory of Croatia? And we should take works of that institution as "neutral"?
Further, don't write with capital letters. You're supposed to know that such behaviour on the Internet is considered as shouting. It makes things worse for you because you use that method as a means of etiquetting ("...Kubura, who is in danger to be seen as more nationaly radical and revisionist of the history then anyone else today"). You haven't read WP:ETIQ, despite that you've been explicitly warned before.
"There is difference between Serb and Serbian in Serbian (Srbin, Srbijanac), but there is no difference between adjective Croat and Croatian in Croatian (Hrvat). There is no Hrvat and Hrvatinac or something. So you would not fool anyone with these gramatical and stylistic games. There is no difference in English, either. ". We speak in English, so it doesn't matter if some other languages distinguish those terms. Further: English does makes difference between "Croat" and "Croatian". Second, Croatian language knows the difference between "Serb" and "Serbian" also. Third, in older Croatian, as well as in the contemporary Standard of Croats from Burgenland, there's a difference for Croat and Croatian (Hrvat-Hrvaćanin).
"at the time when he was born it was not Croatia. ". Šta ti smeta da je to Hrvatska, a? It was. Military Frontier was a temporary solution, not permanent. However, it was still under Croat state right. That right was a obligation of Habsburgs when they accepted the crown of Croatia (including the defense and return of the territories of Croatian Kingdom).
"Then Triunion was not independent state" (Triunion? You mean Triune Kingdom? Learn English.) True, it wasn't independent.
"...it was not accepted in Austro-Hungary (Dalmatia).". What do you mean by that? Triune Kingdom was accepted as fact in Croatian-Hungarian Agreement.
"There was no citizenship of Croatia until 1990s". There was. In socialist Croatia (republican citizenship).
"There was no independent Croat nobility, all nobility was Hungarian. Borojevic was member of Hungarian nobility."
And ban (title, as viceroy) of Croatia, of Magyar origin, Erdody, said on joint Croat-Hungarian Parliament, when Hungarian side wanted to impose some laws to Croatia: "Regno regnum non praescribit leges." Finally, don't overstretch this discussion over original topic. Kubura (talk) 00:27, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Don't hide behind anonimous IP. You're not an uninformed new user. As I see, you know some wiki-tags. Too much for a beginner.
1) "This is unacceptable way of discussing on Wikipedia. " Maybe you find acceptable ignoring the arguments that opponent gave you (about Orthodox Croats). Or your persistent etiquetting? Tell us, which Ustashis existed in Trieste in 1913? Maybe it was Slataper?
2) "Kubura has removed links, references". Reference http://www.geocities.com/veldes1/boroevic.html had this problem: "His family was Krajina Serb of the Orthodox faith." Where was the source for that claim? How do they know the national declaring of his family? "Krajina Serb". Who gave them that info? Being of Orthodox faith in Croatia doesn't mean automatically being Serb, especially in early 19th c..
Further, on that very reference, says "he was nicknamed by his Croatian fellows "the Knight from Soca"". "Boroevic's HQ was the only one in Austro-Hungarian Army where the official language was Croatian and Boroevic was called "our Sveto" by admiring Croatian Domobrans...". "1904, he was commander of the Hrvatsko Domobranstvo (Croatian Home Defense), ..." "During his years of commanding, the "Domobranstvo" regiment became a real national army for the Croatians". "Both sides of his family had served the Croatian Military Frontier...". Interesting, you say that there was no Croatia and no Croatian army at that time. Or you don't see the things that you don't want to see.
As you see, this link was giving more to me than to you. Still, because of that unreferenced line, I've removed it.
Orthodox persons from those areas now mostly declare as Serbs, but we cannot automatically translate that 200 years in the past.
The influence of (domestic and outer) Orthodox clergy that was schooled in Syrmisch Mitrowitz (Srijemska Mitrovica, Sremska Mitrovica), changed national feelings of those persons.
Point is, that although Sremska Mitrovica was at that time part of Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia, Orthodox clergy was under heavy influence of Serbs from eastern Syrmia and southern Hungary, that originally migrated from Serbia.
Best prove for that is that Orthodox persons (Vlachs), that weren't under influence from Serb Orthodox Church, haven't assimilated into Serbs, but they assimilated into Croats (Greek Catholics), because these weren't under the iurisdiction of Serbian clergy.
[8] Organization of Serb national minority once organized some "gatherings" in Montenegrin village in Croatia, trying to present it as Serb one, which resulted in protests of officials of Montenegrin minority in Croatia. Kubura (talk) 01:33, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Interesting, similar terminology used ("ustashe", "croatian nazi fascists") in order to etiquette and defamate the opponents was used by user LAz17 [9]. Kubura (talk) 01:13, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Chauvinist escapades of user 147.91.1.15 on hr.wiki

Here're some chauvinist escapades of user 147.91.1.15, so the interested users can see whome we're dealing with.
This one was from few years ago, on Wikipedia in Croatian, on May 25, 2006, in 11:02, on the article about Croatia [10].
Republika Hrvatska ->Ustaška Republika , hrvatski jezik -> ustaški jezik, Stjepan Mesic -> Stevan Mesic, površina = 56.542 ->16.542 , stanovništvo = 4.437.460 ->stanovništvo = 1.437.460 , gustoća_stanovništva = 83 ->13, valuta = kuna -> valuta = govno, himna = Lijepa nasa domovino -> Sugava nasa domovino, S pripadajućim obalnim morem površina iznosi 89,810 -->19,810 km, rat sa srpskim agresorom --> pokolj Srba od strane ustaša i ostale žgadije hrvatske Ujedinjene narode --> Usrane narode Here's short translation of his vandalism.
Republic of Croatia -> Ustashi Republic
Croatian language -> ustashi language
Stjepan Mesic -> Stevan (typically Serb name for Stjepan) Mesic
Radical lowering of territory (površina) and population (stanovništvo).
currency = kuna -> currency = shit
anthem = Our Beautiful Homeland -> Our Scabby/Mangy Homeland
War with Serbian aggressor (note: Slobodan Milosevic's campaign on Croatia, 1991-95) -> slaughter of Serbs from the side of ustashis and other awful Croats (žgadija hrvatska = better translation is: Croats, awful creatures).
United Nations -> Shitted Nations
Here're his edits on Wikipedia in Croatian [11].
Simply, he equalised everything that relates to Croatia as "ustashi", "mangy", "awful", "shit".
He also was active through some other IP-socks, like 147.91.1.44 [12], 147.91.1.43 [13], 147.91.1.42 [14], 147.91.1.41 [15]. If you look at his areas of interest, you'll see that "these" are the same person. Kubura (talk) 02:33, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Kubura`s violation of Wikipedia rules and his dangerous Historical revisionism

Everyone could see above that Kubura (means handgun in turksh) is obviously extremly personaly and emotionaly involved in this disscussion. It might be a reason and motivation for his strong believe that there are no Serbs in Croatia. He could believe whatever he wants, but it is not a reason to violate Wikipedia rules. He is trying to provoke, to offend etc. My contributions to Wikipedia were strictly according to rules of Wikipedia, in accordance to formal logic, methodology of social sciences, methodology of history, mainstream history and common sence. I have nothing to do with Kubura`s accusations concerning Croatian Wikipedia, nor other accusations. Anyone interested could see that in my text above. In the begining I have only friendly warned Kubura that he should be careful since his claims are not in line with the mainstream history, but with historical revisionism , concerned with the denial of facts accepted by mainstream historians, or personal belive, and that history as a science is based on facts, sources, critical thinking. I have never used argumentum ad hominem in talk with Kubura, thou Kubura`s tactic could be seen on Croatian Wikipedia. He is provoking the opponents until some of them (because they are maybe young or unexperienced) loose patience and answer him in a way that is not acceptable in Wikipedia. Then administrators or burocrats have to act, wich could be seen in discussion between Kubura and Ivan Stambuk on chakavian dialect, when Kubura claimed that chakavian is the purest Croatian language (theory that, by the way, has ground in historical facts). The result is that the opponent is banned from Croatian Wikipedia.

Kubura tries to go on with this discussion, in every sentence opening a new question, while I think that it makes no sence.

I am not registered because it is not request on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is great because everyone has a right to contribute, if he is following Wikipedia rules. For example one has no need to register, or to be educated, or to be moral, or to graduate history or to have PhD in history or social sciences, or to have any education at all, or to be consistent, or to follow the rules of formal logic (thaught in the high school), or rules of methodology of social sciences or to accept common sence. Also, one could contribute on Wikipedia if he is clever or not, Serb or Croat, or Croat who has Serb (or Italian etc.) ancestry, or only some Serb forfathers, or maybe converts from Orthodoxy to Catholicisam, or Greek Catholicism, or he could be a Serb of Italian, German etc, origin, but one has to accept mainstream history because it is a Wikipedia rule. Historical revisionism , is a particular form of historical revisionism concerned with the denial of facts accepted by mainstream historians. This is unbelivebel Historical revisionism of Kubura that burocrats from English Wikipedia should take care for:

Kubura says: "442 members of Borojevic family murderd in Concentration camp Jasenovac ". Do you want me to tell you the stories about the crimes that were committed by italianized Croats against Croats in WWII? Croats against Croats. It wasn't the first time".

It is obvious that Kubura claims that Croats were murdering Croats in Jasenovac (that there were no Serbs, and Borojevics are listed officialiy in Croatia as Serb victims). It looks like this in offical site of Jasenovac in Croatia (http://www.jusp-jasenovac.hr Spomen Područje Jasenovac):

Prezime: Ime: Ime oca: Rođen/a: Općina rođenja: Mjesto rođenja: Narodnost: BOROJEVIĆ NIKOLA ADAM 1895 KOSTAJNICA BOROJEVIĆI SRBIN Način smrti: UBIJEN Stradao/la: OD USTAŠA God. smrti: 1942 Mjesto stradanja: U LOGORU Logor: JASENOVAC Stratište:

BOROJEVIĆ JOVAN ADAM 1895 KOSTAJNICA BOROJEVIĆI SRBIN Način smrti: UBIJEN Stradao/la: OD USTAŠA God. smrti: 1943 Mjesto stradanja: U LOGORU Logor: JASENOVAC Stratište:

BOROJEVIĆ LJUBICA NIKOLA 1909 GLINA VELIKI GRADAC SRPKINJA Način smrti: UBIJENA Stradao/la: OD USTAŠA God. smrti: 1941 Mjesto stradanja: U LOGORU

ect.

Besides politicaly dangerous theory of Orthodox Croats that was instituted in nazi puppet Independent State of Croatia, Kubura has also violated Wikipedia rules:

1. Kubura says: Use toilet paper. Don't use Wikipedia for your writings about "ustashi inventions".

This is unacceptable way of discussing on Wikipedia.

2. Kubura has removed links, references, one in English and two in Serbian, and left one in English and one in Croatian, wich was not done in bona fide, but was attepmt to hide information that were different from those he wants to show.

• http://www.geocities.com/veldes1/boroevic.html Field Commanders in WWI Svetozar Boroevic was born in the village of Umetic near Kostajnica on 13 December 1856. His family was Krajina Serb of the Orthodox faith.”
• http://www.srbi-zagreb.hr/arhiva.php?id=13612&kat=237 - 40k. It is a article on promotion of the materials for the book of Svetozar Borojevic Lion, or Fox etc, monography written by prof. Dr Drago Rosandic, Croatian professor of History at the University of Zagreb, Croatia. Here we could see that Svetozar Borojevic was born in Serb Orthodox family, that his predicate Von Bojna comes from his mothers native village Bojna (Glina) etc.
• It is a article on promotion of the materials for the book of Svetozar Borojevic Lion, or Fox etc, monography written by prof. Dr Drago Rosandic, Croatian professor of History at the University of Zagreb, Croatia. There also could be read that radical Croat nationalist Frankovci named after Josip Frank vandalized graves of father and mother of Svetozar Borojevic, because they were Orthodox Serbs, c. 1914, etc, as well as that Council of the Serb national minority has visited Borojevics birthplace and organized Serb Orthodox ceremony in remembrance of Borojevic etc http://www.srbi-zagreb.hr/arhiva.php?id=13612&kat=237 - 40k. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.91.1.45 (talk) 12:01, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Sources have errors, they are unable to be seen or checked.--Wustefuchs (talk) 11:57, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Also, I have found those too letters writen by Boroević in Croatian State Archive, wher he says that he is Croat, and besides, ther are other sources what confrime that:

Odredbe Narodnog vijeća o željeznicama za koje sam saznao tijekom noći u najkraćem će vremenu vojsku učiniti bespomoćnom zbog nedostatka hrane i posljedice će biti katastrofalne za južnoslavenska područja jer će horde nedisciplinirane vojske i Talijana, koji se ne mogu u ovom trenutku zaustaviti, nahrupiti preko Kranjske i Hrvatske i zato Vas molim ne kao general, ne kao posljednji sin zemlje već kao domoljub koji svoju domovinu voli isto tako kao i svaki drugi Hrvat i apeliram na domoljublje NV da se ukinu ove odredbe koje bio pretvorile vojsku u horde koje bi uništile posljednje tekovine. Neka željeznički promet bude slobodan.

(brzojav Svetozara Borojevića Narodnom vijeću SHS, 1. studeni 1918.)

'Dragi Slavko! [[[Slavko Kvarernik]]] ... Zahvaljujem Vam na pokušajima rehabilitacije. Budući da ne poznajem prilike u Hrvatskoj, prepuštam Vam sve odluke. Bilo bi mi žao ako bi mi se pred zemljacima u Hrvatskoj tek na traženje Srbije osigurala zadovoljština. Postoji li mogućnosti da se cijeli zapisnik, naravno preveden, preda Obzoru na objavljivanje s mojim komentarom o mom svjetonazoru kao Hrvata i utjecaju u prilog Južnih Slavena tijekom rata?... Srdačno, Vaš stari Boroević, feldmaršal.

(pismo Svetozara Borojevića Slavku Kvaterniku iz 1919.) --Wustefuchs (talk) 12:01, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

References

Hi 188.2.49.183! References which I provided are non-Croatian and non-Serbian reliable sources from reliable autors, and you can't remove them from the fact which they cite. Please, you have page numbers to verify them. They all cite that Svetozar Boroević was Croatian, Croat or Croatian-born. You are welcome to present your own reliable references and discuss them here. Regarding the Military Frontier I partly agree with you. Although by the Basic Law of the Frontier from 1850, the administration of Military Frontier was split and the land started to look like a state. Croatian and Slavonian Frontiers were reincorporated into Croatian-Slavonian crownland on July 15, 1881. So I will put Slavonian Military Frontier as his place of birth. Regards, Kebeta (talk) 09:00, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

As I asked you before IP 188.2.49.183, please don't remove or change references from the facts which they cite. It is not important what you or I think about Svetozar, but what the reliable autors are saying. References cite that he was Croatian, and the second sentence is refering to his birth in today's Croatia. Which was then in Croatian Military Frontier (part of Austrian Empire), and not in Slavonian Military Frontier as you have noted. Kebeta (talk) 14:21, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Here some references that Boroević is also considered being a member of a Serbian family:

• Gerhard Hirschfeld (ed.): Enzyklopädie Erster Weltkrieg. Schöningh, Paderborn 2003, ISBN 3-506-73913-1, p.71.
• Biography at Austrian Commanders
• Gert Sudholt: Deutsche Annalen. Band 27, Druffel-Verlag, 1998, p.111
• Adam Wandruszka, Peter Urbanitsch (ed.): Die Habsburgermonarchie 1848-1918. Band 3, Teil 1, Verlag der Österreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften, Wien 1980, ISBN 3-70010-217-8
• Stephan Verosta: Theorie und Realität von Bündnissen. Heinrich Lammasch, Karl Renner und der Zweibund (1897–1914). Europa-Verlag, Wien 1971, ISBN 3-203-50387-6, p.249.
• Rolf Wörsdörfer: Krisenherd Adria 1915-1955. Konstruktion und Artikulation des Nationalen im italienisch-jugoslawischen Grenzraum. Schöningh, Paderborn 2004, ISBN 3-50670-144-4, p.94
• Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn: Austria infelix, oder, Die Republik der Neidgenossen. Böhlau, 1983, ISBN 3205072065. p.72
• Vasja Klavora: Schritte im Nebel: die Isonzofront, Karfreit/Kobarid-Tolmein/Tolmin, 1915-1917, Hermagoras/Mohorjeva, 1995, ISBN 3850133753, p.27.
• Marko Attila Hoare: The history of Bosnia: from the Middle Ages to the present day. 2007, ISBN 0863569536, p.92
• John R. Schindler: Isonzo. The forgotten sacrifice of the Great War. Greenwood Publishing Group, 2001, ISBN 0275972046, p.46 ("he was a Serb ... the son of a Serbian Grenzer")
  

--Otberg (talk) 16:05, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

You can see the sources he is Croat in "References" in the Article, and besides, hi called him self Croat... so... I think he knows very well what was he, Croat or Serb.--Wustefuchs (talk) 02:30, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Another thing, forgien sources, when they hear that person was ortodox and from space of former Yugoslavia they automaticly write Serb, wich is wrong. Forgieners say for many other people they are Serbs just becouse of their ortodox faith. Like, example, general Mihajlo Lukić, Fedor Dragoljov etc. And those persons were ustasha officers... so forgien sources are... funny, even though, I named forgien sources wher says Boroević is Croat, but I bealive more to our home books (I think we know more about our persons then forgieners).--Wustefuchs (talk) 02:35, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

You have to respect WP:NPOV in your edits. That's all. --Otberg (talk) 10:36, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

O.k., I am puting back Serbian Orthodox into section Early life. Even if Svetozar is a Croatian from a Croatian family, sources presented by Otberg can't be ignored. Until some consensus, both Serbian and Croatian Orthodox family should be mentioned - maybe Svetozar was Croatian soldier of Serb origin. Wustefuchs, if you have an image of Svetozar's letter and/or telegram in which he states that he is Croat/Croatian (or reliable sources from reliable autors which talks about that letter) - that would be great. Kebeta (talk) 13:32, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

• @Wustefuchs, please note that you are now violating WP:SYN:

“ Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be a synthesis of published material to advance a new position, which is original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. ”

Also, you have breached WP:3RR. Do it again and you might find yourself BLOCKED for something you wished you didn't do in the first place. Take heed. --Dave ^{♠♣♥♦™№1185♪♫™} 13:44, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

OK, i do have a source, and it's from Croatian State Archive in work Vojskovđa Svetozar Boroević. Please, remove Serbian.--Wustefuchs (talk) 16:00, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Here are those letters, I'll just add text from them and translate them, you can find them here: Vojskovođa Svetozar Boroević

"Odredbe Narodnog vijeća o željeznicama za koje sam saznao tijekom noći u najkraćem će vremenu vojsku učiniti bespomoćnom zbog nedostatka hrane i posljedice će biti katastrofalne za južnoslavenska područja jer će horde nedisciplinirane vojske i Talijana, koji se ne mogu u ovom trenutku zaustaviti, nahrupiti preko Kranjske i Hrvatske i zato Vas molim ne kao general, ne kao posljednji sin zemlje već kao domoljub koji svoju domovinu voli isto tako kao i svaki drugi Hrvat i apeliram na domoljublje NV da se ukinu ove odredbe koje bio pretvorile vojsku u horde koje bi uništile posljednje tekovine. Neka željeznički promet bude slobodan."

(HDA, Narodno vijeće SHS, Odjel za narodnu obranu, Operativni odsjek, 5/ 1918.)

The regulations of National Council on Railways, for which I learned during the night in the shortest possible time will make the army helpless due to lack of food and the consequences would be disastrous for the South Slavic area, because the hordes of undisciplined army and the Italians, who can not stop at this point, will swarm over the Crain and Croatia and therefore I ask you not as a general, not as the last son of the country but as a patriot who loves his country as much as any other Croat and appeal to patriotism, National Council to abolish this regulation, which would turn an army into horde wich would destroy the achievements of the past. Let the train service is free. "

(HDA, National Council of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs, Department for people's defence, Operational department, 5/1918.)

---

"Bilo bi mi žao ako bi mi se pred zemljacima u Hrvatskoj tek na traženje Srbije osigurala zadovoljština. Postoji li mogućnosti da se cijeli zapisnik, naravno preveden, preda Obzoru na objavljivanje s mojim komentarom o mom svjetonazoru kao Hrvata i utjecaju u prilog Južnih Slavena tijekom rata? Bi li Obzor stao u moju obranu kao Hrvata u odnosu na Kranjsku?"

"I would be sorry if you would provide me my satisfaction just becouse of request of Serbia in front of my countrymen in Croatia. Is there a possibility that the entire record, of course, translated, be given to Obzor to publicate with my comments about my worldview as a Croat and influence in favor of South Slavs during the war? Would Obzor stood in my defense as the Croat in relation to Kranjska (engl. Crain)?"

(Letter probably from april or may 1919)

Now, those are just two letters wher he says he is Croat... in other letters he is writing about his poor conditions in Austria and how he regrets becouse he can't ger back in his Fatherland Croatia, and so on... I think thoe are enoguh.--Wustefuchs (talk) 16:17, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

No, the facts, proven by references above are: Boroević family were Serbian Grenzers. Svetozar Boroević himself later assimilated to a Croat and convertet at the end of his life even to Catholicism. So he had two ethnic sides in his life. Where is the problem for you to tell the truth in the article? --Otberg (talk) 16:34, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Wustefuchs, that is a great source with lots of detail information about Svetozar and his life. However, I wouldn't remove Serbian family from the Early life section. We all agree that he was a Croat afterwards, during his Military Career. Was he born in Croatian or Serbian family is big question, with sources for both claims. Instead, I would advise you/and Otberg to improve this article with suitable citations up to B class, and his Croathood / Serbhood will 'come out'. I am willing to do the same. Regards, Kebeta (talk) 23:08, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Good advice, I do agree. Regards --Otberg (talk) 14:02, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I'll add more information from his life to article, but, is it importaint what was his family, becouse, we are talking about him, and even though, I do bealive his family also were Croats. In that time many ortodox were serbianized, not just ordotox Croats, but also Walachs and others. That was the main reason why Croatia lost all the Wallach population and in same time gained Serbian population. Same thing happend with other ortodox. But anyways, I do agree with you Kebeta.--Wustefuchs (talk) 13:42, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Sources in German

Respected User Otberg, English sources are prefered on Wikipedia on English language. And that is rule in WP:RSUE ("English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones, unless no English sources of equal quality and relevance are available"). --Wustefuchs (talk) 18:53, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Is absolutely nonsense, that non-English sources are not considered at all. Your sources do not tell us anything about his family, they just say he considered himself later, in world war I a Croat, which no one do deny. If you start a new edit war, you will be blocked. All you are doing in Wikipedia is turning people to Croats. --Otberg (talk) 09:29, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

This is article about Svetozar Boroević and not article about his family, it is nonsense to you, but that's the rule.--Wustefuchs (talk) 20:43, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Please try to read the sentence where you are editing: Boroević was born into a Croatian or Serbian Orthodox family in the village of Umetići .... Capiche? --Otberg (talk) 21:23, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

References inappropriately used

There is a number of references used falsely to prove that Boroevic was born in a (ethnic) Croatian family:

1. Morselli, Mario (2001). Caporetto, 1917: victory or defeat?. Routledge. p. 41. ISBN 0714650730, 9780714650739.
2. Palmer, Alan (2000). Victory 1918. Grove Press. p. 185. ISBN 0802137873, 9780802137876.
3. Tucker, Spencer (1996). The European powers in the First World War:. Taylor & Francis. p. 762. ISBN 0815303998, 9780815303992.
4. Burg, David F. Burg (2004). Almanac of World War I. University Press of Kentucky. p. 67. ISBN 0813190878, 9780813190877.
5. Neiberg, Michael S. (2004). Warfare & society in Europe: 1898 to the present. Routledge. p. 47. ISBN 0415327180, 9780415327183.
6. May, Arthur James (1966). The passing of the Hapsburg Monarchy, 1914-1918. University of Pennsylvania Press. p. 92.

Accordingly, I removed all of them from the place where they were wrongly used. None of the removed references can be used that way. All of them say that Boroevic was Croatia-born or was a Croatian officer. To be more accurate, his birth place belonged to the Military Frontiers ruled by Vienna, in the time of his birth. See

1. A short history of Yugoslavia: from early times to 1966 by Stephen Clissold, Henry Clifford Darby CUP Archive, 1968 page 29

This province was dissolved in 1863 year. Moreover, all this can be verified through the Google book search.--71.163.226.233 (talk) 22:17, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

If those sources say he is Croat, then logicly he is born in Croatian family, and adding he was born in Serbian family makes article look stupid.--Wustefuchs (talk) 15:01, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

• This is serious and intentional misinterpretation of the references. Above, another user Otberg warned you the same way as the IP 71.163.226.233. You still want go your way??--96.231.71.176 (talk) 21:42, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I got a message on my talk page from the above IP to look into this issue of Boroević's background. When looking at sources that say "Croatian" or "Serbian", it's important to distinguish whether they are referring to the words in an ethnic sense or a national/regional sense. The article currently cites about half a dozen sources each for Croatian and Serbian. I've quoted the ones I can access below. I can't access all of them because some are either non-English or Google Books didn't show the preview:

For Croatian:

• Almanac of World War I: "Svetozar Boroevic von Bojna, a Croatian officer".
• Warfare & society in Europe: "Croatian general Svetozar Boroević".

For Serbian:

• [16]: "born in the village of Umetic near Kostajnica on 13 December 1856. His family was Krajina Serb of the Orthodox faith." (Even if that's true, the site seems to be self-published and should therefore be removed).
• Isonzo: "the son of a Serbian Grenzer family from Croatia".

Boroević can declare himself whatever he wanted, but this is about his parents' ancestry. So far, there's at least one reliable source (Isonzo) that clearly states his parents' ancestry. Are there any sources saying his parents were ethnic Croats? Sources that simply call him "Croatian" or "Serbian" can't be used to cite his parents' background unless the source is clearly talking about his parents. Spellcast (talk)

• Not a single of counted above sources says that his parents were ethnic Croats. All sources are google searcheable. I was able to access each of the pages referenced. Therefore, conclusion that he was born to a Croatian family is false. Moreover, user Otberg found some German sources stating that Boroevic converted to the Roman Catholicism (the Serbs are Eastern Greek Orthodox), which is understandable, for the rules in Austro-Hungarian army requiring that all non-commissioned officers must be Roman Catholics. User Wustefuchs statement "If those sources say he is Croat, then logicly he is born in Croatian family" is a logical fallacy. I am an American, but I am not born to an American family.--96.231.71.176 (talk) 12:40, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Since he was born in the Croatian Military Frontier, it's understandable that sources call him Croatian. And since he was born into a Serb family in Croatia, it's also understandable that sources call him a Serb. So, a source that calls him "Croatian" or "Serbian" can't be used to cite his parents' ancestry unless it's clearly referring to his family. Therefore, I've removed those refs because many (if not all) of them aren't referring to his family (if any are, please say so). If a source calls him Croatian or Serbian, I can understand how someone can easily mistake it for meaning his family ancestry. So in the future, everyone should carefully look at the context of the sources.

Also, I've changed the lead back to "Austro-Hungarian field marshal". If the "Croatian-born" part was originally added to mean an ethnic Croat, there's obviously no source and MOS:BIO says ethnicity "should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability". But if it's referring to nationality or region, saying "Croatia" by itself is ambiguous and misleading because it's not clear if it's referring to the Kingdom of Croatia or the Croatian Military Frontier, and the frontier wasn't incorporated with the Kingdom of Croatia until 1881. If necessary, the article on Nikola Tesla (who was also born in the frontier) is a good example of how to write ancestry and birth place in the lead. Spellcast (talk) 18:37, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

• Your edit and explanation of the reasons for changes are great improvements. The only, however minor, thing remains to be fixed. Military Frontier, a province of Austria, was never called Croatian Military Frontier. From the map and pages (all from A short history of Yugoslavia: from early times to 1966 by Stephen Clissold, Henry Clifford Darby CUP Archive, 1968) is clear and visible that the Military Frontier was outside Croatia and with a part that did not ever belonged to any Croatia. It was clear from this reference that one part of Military Frontier was incorporated into Croatia (1881) and another part into Woiwodschaft Serbien or serbischen Woiwodschaft i.e. into today's Serbia. There are many other sources, Google Book searchable, proving that. The Croats and sources citing Croatian sources might say 'Croatian' Military Frontier. Once more, thank you for your great work!--96.231.71.176 (talk) 23:52, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

From what I've read, the terms "Military Frontier" and "Croatian Military Frontier" are used interchangeably, even if referring to the same section of the entire frontier. I moved Croatian Krajina to Croatian Military Frontier last year because it seemed to be the most common English term. Anyway, if you want to bring up issues regarding its official name or whatever, it should be done on that article's talk page instead of here. Spellcast (talk) 23:19, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Spellcast & to IP

Maybe you have noted in the talk page above, that I suggested to user Wustefuchs & Otberg to stop edit war, and to improve this article with suitable citations up to B class, and his Croathood / Serbhood will 'come out'. Unfortunately, the article was not improved, only reverted from Croatian to Serbian.... Although I think that Spellcast intentions are good, I think he has made an error here, especially with removing the references. I will now in several points try to explain why.

1. The only thing that is clear here is that Boroević was originally an Orthodox from Croatian Military Frontier. At that time not all Orthodox were Serbs, nor all Catholic were Croats. In the later process, Serbian Orthodox Church declared all Orthodox to be Serbs. Most of them accepted, but not all of them. Boroević did not accepted this. So Spellcast, as you wrote above "If the "Croatian-born" part was originally added to mean an ethnic Croat, there's obviously no source and MOS:BIO says ethnicity "should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability". But if it's referring to nationality or region, saying "Croatia" by itself is ambiguous and misleading...", the same thing can be applied here "If the "Orthodox-born" part was originally added to mean an ethnic Serb,...it is ambiguous and misleading." What I want to say, you removed references which state that he was Croatian, because the writters wrote that because he was from Croatia. The same goes for references which state that he was Serbian, because the writters wrote that because he was an Orthodox??? Can we do this on Wiki?
2. You have mentioned Nikola Tesla. Look here. That is his passport, and the same one Boroević had, because after the Croatian Military Frontier was abolish, it was incorporated in the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia or Triune Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia, and Dalmatia.
3. He was the Commander of the Royal Croatian Home Guard.
4. He declared himself as a Croat, the source above claims he was from a Croat family, he was born in Croatian Military Frontier (today's Croatia), lived as a citizen in Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia (today's Croatia), about 30 realible sources by non-Croatian autors claim that he was a Croat. Can we ignore all this? Kebeta (talk) 15:17, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Spellcast, please revert youself and let the article be improved, instead of cuting either Croatian or Serbian for now. Regards, Kebeta (talk) 15:17, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I removed the sources that weren't supporting the claim that he was born into a "Croatian" or "Serbian" family. Again, you can't take a source that calls him either of those and use that to identify his parents' ethnicity unless the source is clearly talking about his family. If he declared himself Croat, feel free to add that to the article. But his parents' ethnicity is a separate issue from his allegiance, who he commanded, and what he identified himself as. (Tito had a Croatian father and Slovenian mother, but he would've identified as a Yugoslav. Starcevic had a Croatian father and Serbian mother, but he would've identified as a Croatian). You say he was an Orthodox, but what about the reliable sources that say his parents were Serbs from Croatia? Of those 30 sources that call him a Croat, are any referring to the ethnicity of his parents and not nationality? (And you're right, I should've said the military frontier was merged with the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia in 1881, not the previous Kingdom of Croatia). Spellcast (talk) 18:47, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

In the article there was nothing about his ethnicity, only that he was Croatian-born Austro-Hungarian Field Marshal (which I am restoring, since there are lots of realible sources from non-Croatian autors), and that he was born in Croatian or Serbian family (which I will leave Serbian, since there are none realible sources from non-Croatian autors). Regards, Kebeta (talk) 15:55, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

As shown in the article on Tesla, who was also born in the frontier, it's arguably more informative and precise to say he was born in the Croatian Military Frontier rather than the ambiguous "Croatian" by itself. Although there are sources calling both of them "Croatian-born Serbs", it's obviously more informative to say something like "Born in the village of Umetić, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire (present-day Croatia)". The fact that he was born in the frontier in the territory of present-day Croatia is already referenced. There's simply no need for an extra six refs to verify this simple fact. Spellcast (talk) 22:56, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

No, the references are not saying that he was born in Croatian Military Frontier, but explicitly that he was Croatian or Croatian-born. You can't presume what the authors wanted to say, that sound like a 'Original research'. Which I thought you understood from the begining of this discussion. The difference between Tesla and Boroević is that Tesla have said that he is proud on his homeland Croatia and his Serbian origin. Boroević refered to himself, only as a Croat. Maybe that's what the authors wanted to day, maybe not. We can't make that decision, like you have made a decision that they refer to his birth place. Now, we will have to find some other way to resolve this issue, because it will become an edit-war soon (maybe a mediation?). And there would not be a need for six references if there was no dispute. Regards, Kebeta (talk) 13:34, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Being born in the frontier isn't original research, it's sourced under "Early life". "Croatian-born" is an anachronism. If you look at the context of the refs, it's obvious "Croatian-born" means he was born in the territory of what is now modern-day Croatia. You can find many sources saying Nikola Tesla was "Croatian-born" or Christopher Columbus was "Italian-born" (both of which refer to the modern-day places), but those articles don't say that. Instead, they use the historical name of the place they were born in and then clarify the modern-day location, which is obviously better from an editorial common sense view. This really isn't a controversial issue, it's simply a matter of being precise. If you honestly think otherwise, I guess a third opinion would be the next step. In that case, a resolution would stop this article from the WP:PLAGUE by preventing nationalist POV-pushers from edit-warring. (I'm not saying we're edit-warring, I'm just saying a resolution would prevent potential POV-pushers from jumping straight into the article without seeking consensus). Spellcast (talk) 00:32, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure that "Croatian-born" means he was born in the territory of what is now modern-day Croatia. In "The European powers in the First World War", Spencer Tucker clearly makes a difference between Croats and Serbs while describing the creation of Yugoslavia, and describes Svetozar as Croatian. In the "Who's who in military history: from 1453 to the present day", Andrew Wheatcroft while describing Svetozar as Croatian, clearly states his Croat ethnicity, not the land he is coming from. So, some kind of third opinion to prevent POV-pushers would be needed. For finding the final solution, I will agree on any way that you think is the best one. Regards, Kebeta (talk) 18:40, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

• User Kebeta uses actually a blog to prove existence of the Orthodoxs which shall not be the Serbs!? As to the Tesla's passport, the Triune Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia, and Dalmatia seen in the passport never existed. Dalmatians opted to keep their representatives in the Vienna's Landsrat and their seats in the Croatian Diet (Sabor) were empty till the Austria-Hungary dissolution (See Taylor's The Habsburg Monarchy, 1809-1918). The last failed attempt to make that Triune Kingdom failed in 1905. So, using nationalistic sources to prove what some users want to prove shall be prevented. I support Spellcast in his removal of nationalism from this article. Another correction is about the Military Frontier: only one part of it was merged with the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia. The other part became a part of Woiwodschaft Serbien.--96.231.71.176 (talk) 22:45, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Dear IP, I am not here to prove what Orthodoxs in Croatia was or is (and please sign in). You took that 'Out of Context'. BTW, in those days people in Croatia (kingdom or frontier) were labeled as Greek Orthodox, not as Serb Orthodox (you can see that on Nikola Tesla passpoer as well). Now, don't get confused again - I am not saying they were or were't Serbs. Second, the Triune Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia, and Dalmatia was another name for Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia (which I also wrote above). Third, Croatian Military Frontier (restored to Croatia after the Turkish threat was over) was a part of Military Frontier, and Svetozar was born there, not in the Woiwodschaft Serbien. Kebeta (talk) 15:55, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

• My friend, in those days people in Croatia (kingdom or frontier) were NOT labeled as Greek Orthodox, rather as Greek Orthodox by the Kingdom bureaucracy which was common name for Little Russians, Romanians, and Serbs i.e. the common name for the people of Greek Orthodox rite i.e. the common denominator for Russian, Romanian, and Serbian Orthodox Churches. (I hope that you won't start claiming that Boroevic was actually a Little Russian) Triune Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia, and Dalmatia is not a name, it is just never fulfilled wish of some people in Croatia Proper. Croatian Military Frontier never existed, except in Wikipedia and in some heads inside Croatia Proper. History recorded only Military Frontier established and ruled by Viennese Court for centuries. What you have to show us is the front cover of the Tesla's passport. There was no place for Croatia Whatever. Spellcast keep up with good work!--96.231.71.176 (talk) 01:42, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The linked article "Vojskovođa Svetozar Boroević" is not a "blog", it's a text authorized by a person who sports a PhD and happens to lead a Croatian state institution (the State Archives), and written by their head of military history department, so it cannot be just dismissed out of hand. It doesn't look anyone's listed a more specific document with significant coverage of the matter, this document seems internally well referenced, and no factual reason has been provided to distrust it, so I've included it in the article. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 14:32, 24 May 2011 (UTC)