Talk:Swedes/Archive 3

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Suggestions for the last picture

Some of us want August Strindberg if we don't have Ingvar Kamprad. And some of you want Tove Jansson (who is Finnish). As is even mentioned in this article the opinion of whether or not finlandssvenskar are Swedes is a very controversial subject and something most finlandssvenskar themselves will deny. Most see themselves not as ethnic Finns but as their own ethnicity. Either way - due to the controversial nature of this subject I amongst others disagree with having a finlandssvensk in the picture box. And since the opposition does not like the suggestions of August Strindberg or Ingvar Kamprad we'll have to find an alternative. And since the opposition's main dislike is not having an ethnic Swede residing outside of Sweden in the box this is what we'll find suggestions of.

Possible candidates: Carl Sandburg (writer), Charles Lindbergh (aviator), Harry Nyquist (engineer), Robert Englund (actor)

Any more? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lilyserbia (talk • contribs) 14:18, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

I still think Tove Jansson is the best person to represent Swedes living outside of present Swedish borders. And besides that, all you suggestions are males and they also are people with Swedish ancestry. Närking (talk) 10:50, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

There is no reason to have anyone not based in Sweden in that box at all. This would otherwise be akin to claiming one needed to invade Iraq to destroy weapons of mass destruction. Show some respect: this article is about Swedes and its contents should be to their liking. And most will scratch their heads about the asinine move to put Carl Sandburg in that box - he wasn't even born in Sweden! So get a clue fast.

Agreed, with Narking. It's rather ridiculous to claim that a Swedish descent and unilingually Swedish person cannot be Swede, and worst, not to even provide a source for such controversial claim. Finland-Swedes are not "from Sweden" in the modern national-state meaning of the word, nor do they represent the political interest of the state of the Sweden (although, usually, if not always these interest are mutual), they neither hail Carl Gustav as their king, but so what? This article is not about people who express their political loyality exclusively to Swedish state, nor about people with tax records in Sweden. This is about historical and contemporary Swedish ethnicities, which can be found within the borders of Finland, Sweden & USA (and in the past in Estonia). Moreover, Finland-Swedes as population trace their language/culture/folklore directly to proto-Swedish (fornsvenska). It's not some seperate, fourth Northern-Germanic/Scandinavian nationality as some scholars assumed in the 19th century.Podomi (talk) 20:30, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Because Tove Jansson is not ethnically Swedish. It doesn't matter whether her dad is an ethnic Swede since living in finlandssvensk culture she assimilated into that ethnic group. Those men I mentioned are not Swedish nationals, were not raised in Sweden, but ARE ethnic Swedes since they retain a Swedish culture identity (which comes from being raised in a multicultural society). Tove was raised in a finlandssvenskt environment as a finlandssvensk. If you don't agree with one I'll pick one and add it later (and we can go back to the game of changing pictures constantly). The fact that you have something against there being more men than women in the box suggests you are inherently sexist. None of that in this article please. --Lilyserbia (talk) 00:06, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Your view on ethnicity is rather one sided, I know that in Finland it is very common to assume that geography is the highest form of ethnicity (a legacy of Henrik Porthan in the 18th century) but everywhere else the Finnish way of perceiving ethnicity is quite alien.

Anyway, Tove Jansson mother was Mainland-Swede, father Finland-Swede. Besides, even if the article was about affinity to state of Sweden, which it is not, nevertheless, we'd still have sound reasons to add Finland-Swedes. The above citat is by a Finland-Swedish scholar, Charlotta Hedberg (2005) who studies Finland-Swedes (So much for the "very controversial", something which the Finns are so keen to propagate everytime the question is about Finland-Swedes Sweden-contacts.

”It is concluded that Finland-Swedes are over-represented in the total migrationprocess from Finland to Sweden. As such, the process is culturally embedded in the group´s ethnic identity, which causes migration both through the practical minority situation in Finland and through ethnic affinity with Sweden” .(Hedberg, 2005 "Finland-Swedish wheel of migration")

This article, although only a journalist piece, illustrates also the issue from Finland-Swedish perspective, "Finlandssvenskar är svenskar". Finland-Swedes often ciritize the state of Sweden for the (alleged) nonchalance of Swedish state towards Finland-Swedes,http://www.svd.se/opinion/brannpunkt/finlandssvenskar-ar-svenskar_223187.svdPodomi (talk) 17:15, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

It's obviously impossible to discus this in a normal way with Lilyserbia who prefer to attack people and call them racists and sexists as long as they don't share her/his view.

Podomi has already answered but here are some more notes. I recently read a comment in Hufvudstadsbladet (a Finland-Swedish newspaper for those who don't know) from a Finland-Swede who said that he is a finländare, Finlands-svensk and svensk. Never thought of that? Just as much as I am a närking I'm also a Swede. I have relatives who are Finland-Swedes and they are as much Swedes as I am. Närking (talk) 19:56, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

You can quote as many people's opinions as you like - it won't change the fact that this is a controversial subject. I'm making the new picture now. --Lilyserbia (talk) 22:34, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I ask you to pay attention to the academic, scholar article, I introduced, by Hedberg (2005).Podomi (talk) 08:52, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I have "ethnic affinity" with Norway and could easily move there - that doesn't make me Norwegian. No one is denying finlandssvenskar are Scandinavians, just that they're not Swedes. I could give you various examples of culture clashes faced by Swedes who move to finlandsvenska areas in Finland along with different social anthropological studies claiming finlandssvenskar are not Swedes. But that's not the point. The point is that I disagree with Tove Jansson being Swedish - and therefore I will keep on removing her from the box. If anything what studies in social anthropology tells us is that there is no right answer to this question. In short a Swede is nothing more than a person who sees themselves as Swedish and who others see as Swedish. This is the definition used by SD as well. The only people who disagree are the far right who go on about racial pseudo-science. I am someone who does not see Tove as Swedish and am therefore exercising my rights in editing this article. And that's what it will always come down to.

I added Zlatan to the box now at someone else's request. He's very well-known and deserves to be there but I figured it would open up a can of worms. But the narrow-mindedness revealed in this thread tells me just what kind of people you are and frankly I don't care if it offends you. Even though he is of recent foreign descent he is assimilated. He considers himself 100% Swedish (as stated in interviews) and he is culturally Swedish given how he celebrates Swedish traditions. I gave you a chance to include an ethnic Swede raised outside of Sweden but now I think I'll focus more on showing someone who became an ethnic Swede through a process of assimilation - a forgotten group as well. There is more info about this in the Swedish wikipedia which I plan to translate into the English wikipedia when I have the time. --Lilyserbia (talk) 14:20, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Lilyserbia I think you are going over the line with this article. With the Finland Swedes issue as well as People with Swedish ancestry. Many of your arguments are conflicted, as exemplified by your views on the two above topics, and you weren't able to back it up with any source or reference other than your thoughts and opinions. According to Wikipedia's dispute page, it states that When you find a passage in an article that you find is biased or inaccurate, improve it if you can. If that is not easily possible, and you disagree with a point of view expressed in an article, don't just delete it. Rather, balance it with what you think is neutral. I strongly advice you from deleting all the people's hard work just because you see it as unfit. Try to present the other side of the argument in the same article. People who read this page will then make their own judgment, if the topic in question is even an issue for them at all. Nagbg (talk) 15:48, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it's all clear that a discussion with Lilyserbia is impossible. Throwing accusations about other editors being racists and sexists won't help. And frankly it just tells more about the one who is labeling others. Närking (talk) 21:14, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I'll admit that calling people racists and sexists is out of line and that's just me being annoyed at this never-ending argument. Racialists tend to be racists more often than not though. Genetic markers are more common in certain ethnic populations but ethnicity as a racial biology is a pseudo-science. When it comes to the discussion about finlandssvenskar I simply can't be bothered trying to "prove" they're not Swedes. Because that is irrelevant. The controversiality of this issue is already dealt with in the article and it's up to the readers to read on if interested. What we're discussing now is pictures in a box and who we think deserve to be there for whatever reason. I'll give you this though - the fact that finlandssvenska immigrants to Sweden have their own Immigrant Institute (Finlandssvenskarnas Riksförbund i Sverige) sends the message that this is a separate ethnic group from Swedes rather than ethnic "Swedes moving to the motherland" as it were. Finlandssvenskar who move to Sweden are not referred to as Swedes - but as Sverigefinlandssvenskar (Sweden-Finland-Swedes). They are only referred to as Swedes (sometimes) in Finland. Ethnic Finns who move to Sweden are referred to as Sverigefinnar (Sweden-Finns).

@Nagbg: What have I deleted (recently)? What about all the picture montages I've spent time making that have quickly been replaced? You want my argument as relevant to the topic at hand? I don't believe Tove Jansson has a big legacy at all. Does anyone outside of Finland even know who she is? Ingvar Kamprad and Zlatan are internationally known figures that put Swedes on the map. Carl Sandburg not as much and Charles Lindbergh would probably be a better option to have as an example of a foreign-born Swede. --Lilyserbia (talk) 22:39, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Once again you have shown it's just your own personal view you are fighting for. It's not more strange that the Finland-Swedes have their clubs in Sweden than people from Dalarna have their clubs in Stockholm or Göteborg. If you think that is proving your point you are surely mistaken yourself.

And secondly, when it comes to Tove Jansson you surely are showing your lack of knowledge. Why do you think one of the most popular Russian rock bands have chosen the name Mumiy Troll? Because of some obscure Finland-Swedish writer? Närking (talk) 06:14, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Whether Finland-Swedes are an ethnic group of their own is irrelevant. This article is about all Swedish ethnicities, not just those within the borders of current national state of Sweden. The culture/language/folklore of Finland-Swedes hails directly from proto-Swedish. How could we exclude such a group from an article about Swedish ethnicity?Podomi (talk) 07:28, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

@Narking: It's not a "club" - it's a cultural institute and like all other immigrant institutes its aim is to spread knowledge of the immigrant culture and to defend the rights of the ethnic minority within Swedish society. And also, Mumins are popular - not Tove Jansson.

@Podomi: There is no such thing as sub-ethnicities. Swedes and Norwegians are both of Germanic descent but they are separate ethnicities. A bit like how monkeys and humans share the same ancestor but are different species. Swedish and Finlandsvensk culture have a common ancestor but they have evolved separately. Or are you saying Swedes defy natural laws of cultural evolution? . --Lilyserbia (talk) 15:58, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Finlandssvenskarnas Riksförbund i Sverige is not an institute but a normal non-profit organization for the Swedes from Finland living in Sweden. Good you have found out that Mumin Trolls are known around the world. Next step for you could be to learn something about the author also. But that you again are threatening with an edit war doesn't make you a more serious editor. [1]. Närking (talk) 17:22, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

@LillySerbia, Norse and Danes speak a different language than do the Swedes, Finland-Swedes and Swedes share the same language which hails from proto-Swedish. Finland-Swedes can be considered as a seperate ethnicity or either as "Eastern Swedes". Both are ok. However, this difference of interpretation is not for us to decide. The article is about Swedish ethnicity and includes both (Mainland)-Swedish and (Finland)-Swedish ethnicties, if we want to see them as seperate, that is. Besides, Tove Janssons mother was a Mainland-Swede.Podomi (talk) 20:03, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

@Narking: In other words - an institute. And you'll see how serious I am at editing since I'll never give up on this. I gave you options but you've only been narrow-minded and considered only finlandssvenskar as appropriate for the box. You reap what you sow.

@Podomi: I can tell you've never studied linguistics or else you would know about the never-ending discussion about what makes a dialect as opposed to a language. Many people believe Norwegian, Danish, and Swedish are all dialects of the same language. In Sweden Meänkieli is an official minority language whilst in Finland it is considered a dialect of Finnish. Some people are fighting for the right to recognise Scanian as a language instead of a dialect of Swedish (and there is of course the more common discussion of whether Scanian is a dialect of Swedish or a dialect of Danish). This is some out of many examples. But apparently this is "not up for us to decide" so we may as well add some Norwegians in the box for good measure. --Lilyserbia (talk) 23:55, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Once again Finlandssvenskarnas Riksförbund i Sverige is not an institute. You can read more about them here [2]. And I guess your next claim will be that Västgötar are their own ethnic group since they also have their own "institute"[3] or why not throw in the people from Dalarna also [4]. Närking (talk) 07:21, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

It's an institute. Check the dictionary. And the latter is up for discussion. Like I've said a Swede is someone who considers themselves Swedish and who other see as Swedish. Some Scanians do not see themselves as Swedish - there is even a party who wants to make Scania an independent country. These things are not clear cut and the only people who should be allowed in the box are people who are without a doubt Swedes. --Lilyserbia (talk) 09:32, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Please show me the dictionary who says Riksförbund can be translated as institute? Don't think you can fool anyone here since I'm pretty sure most people here understand Swedish.

So according to your logic there are no Swedes at all. Just västgötar, sörmlänningar, värmlänningar etc. First the Finland-Swedes were Finns, then they were only their own ethnic group, then there are no Swedes at all! Will be interesting to see what the next step will be.

And lastly it's not more strange that there are Swedes living in Finland than there are Russians living in Ukraine (and vice versa). Borders have changed due to wars etc but the people haven't. Närking (talk) 09:48, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Most people here may understand Swedish but you most certainly don't understand English. I was partly raised in Australia - I know what an institute is. I'm not sure you do though. An institute is an organisation with a stated purpose. Finlandssvenskarnas Riksförbund is an organisation whose goals are listed here:[5]. That they don't have "institute" in the title doesn't mean they're not an institute.

If you choose to see it that way. "It's up for discussion" is what I said. Some groups so-called "Swedishness" is more controversial than others.

Borders change, cultures evolve and ethnic groups both appear and disappear. Ålänningar are Swedes and Finland-Swedes are not. If you know any famous Ålanders you are free to add them in there. Otherwise we're going to have to agree to disagree. I've stopped adding the Zlatan picture for now but will continue to change the montage to include Carl Sandburg - unless someone else comes up with another idea that we can all agree on. --Lilyserbia (talk) 13:53, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Once again, please show me a dictionary that says Riksförbund is the same as "Immigrant Institute" as you have claimed. Maybe it's an Australian dialect?

Interesting to see that Swedes exist again and that ålänningar can be included! How about österbottningar?[6]. Närking (talk) 14:12, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

A riksförbund is not an immigrant institute - Finlandssvenskarnas Riksförbund is an immigrant institute. See the difference? A dictionary? Just check wikipedia for a start or any online dictionary you can find if you must.

Åland is a part of Sweden in every way but legally - it is a Swedish community. Ostrobothnia is up for discussion. Tove Jansson and Linus Torvalds, however, are both from Helsinki. They are in no way Swedish - they are ethnic finlandssvenskar. There was a similar discussion going on in northern Sweden about whether "Finnish"-speakers in Tornedalen were Finns or their own ethnic group. Now it is widely accepted that they are their own ethnic group (Tornedalians) and their "dialect of Finnish" has been declared an official minority language in Sweden. Read more here. --Lilyserbia (talk) 15:14, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

It surely has nothing to do with this but you still haven't showed how Finlandssvenskarnas Riksförbund is an immigrant institute. It's an organisation for the Finland-Swedish clubs that exist in Sweden just like any other riksförbund.

So now österbottningar can be Swedes! But not åbolänningar [7]? If ålänningar are Swedes, how come they are members of Finlandssvenskarnas Riksförbund? Wasn't that an "immigrant institute" for Finns? Närking (talk) 15:43, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

And that's exactly what an institute is. I don't see what the problem is here? The reason I mentioned it is because the finlandssvenska riksförbund is organised as an immigrant institute (aka, has goals) as opposed to the more general "association" riksförbund. I think what your problem is is that you're assuming all institutes revolve around research. And most institutes do - but not all. Like I said, an institute simply refers to an organisation with clear goals. Some Riksförbunds are simply associate organisations whose members meet and socialize. The so-called "immigrant institutes" refers to the riksförbunds with goals geared at defending the rights of and spreading cultural knowledge about an ethnic minority. I hope that's clarified enough for you.

Did you read their page? Den kultur vi fört med oss har också till stor del helt svenska förtecken.

Compared to: Förbundet är centralorganisationen för i Sverige verksamma finlandssvenska ideella föreningar som vill främja finlandssvensk kultur och finlandssvenskarnas intressen i Sverige och Finland.

You need to realise there is a difference between Swedes living in Finland and Finland-Swedes, just like there is a difference between Finns living in Sweden and Tornedal-Finns. --Lilyserbia (talk) 17:36, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

You surely read in too much on that website. Of course all riksförbund have goals. Sveriges Hembygdsförbund are doing the same but I doubt anyone would call it an institute.

And yes, there are differences between Swedes living in Sweden and Finland. Just like there are big differences between those living in Ystad and those living in Kiruna. But we all are Swedes anyway.

And by the way Tornedal-Finns are considered as Finns by Finns in Finland. And the few Ingrians in Russia see themselves as Finns. Närking (talk) 18:35, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

And congratulations! Your 3rd revert in one day managed to get the article locked. Närking (talk) 18:46, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

And you're reading too much into the use of the term institute. Whether it's an institute or not is at the end of the day irrelevant. Their goals, however, are relevant.

Sure, and the Scanians are considered Danes by the people of Denmark. All this who is considered what by who mumbo-jumbo really highlights the fact that this is a controversial issue - which was my whole argument in the first place against having a Finland-Swede in the box.

Can't say I can complain about the lock since it was a bother trying to change the montages back. Why are you being so stubborn? I originally wanted a Swedish-raised person in the box but since you wanted an ethnic Swede raised outside of Sweden I COMPROMISED. Yet my wishes are still ignored. :( You forget there are no "right" or "wrong" answers when it comes to this - only people's opinions of who should be featured in the box. You cannot win when it comes to this so why try? I for one am open to further suggestions. --Lilyserbia (talk) 22:28, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Your use of the term "immigrant institute" was obviously made to fool those who don't know Swedish. But it won't work.

As far as I know the Danes don't consider the Scanians as Danes. And secondly Tove Jansson was a compromise instead of Linus Torvalds. And thirdly, so far you are alone with your view. We only have another anonymous IP that might as well be you too. Närking (talk) 06:41, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

You can come up with as many conspiracy theories as you want - the admins know the truth. And yes, you switched one Finland-Swede from Helsinki for another Finland-Swede from Helsinki when my argument against Linus was that he was a Finland-Swede - not that he was a man. I also believe you changed it because Finnish people demanded it - Linus being far more recognisable to the average Finnish person than Tove. I believe what it comes down to that whilst I'm open-minded about who should be in the box you have an agenda. There is nothing personal about me not wanting a Finland-Swede in the box but I'm guessing it is for you in wanting it. And we are again at a standstill... --Lilyserbia (talk) 10:28, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

May I remind you that it wasn´t I who suggested the change to Tove Jansson. She was up for discussion way back in time but a Finland-Swedish editor suggested Linus Torvalds instead so I then went on with him. Don't try to rewrite history here as so many others try. Närking (talk) 10:53, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, (Finland)-Swedes, are an ethnicity of their own, great! Let's add them to article of Swedish ethnicity along with Mainland-Swedes. I swicth the picture back to Jansson, a Finland-Swede born to a Mainland-Swedish mother, there ain't no better representant for an All-Swedish ethnicityPodomi (talk) 14:59, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

@LillySerbia, I don't like the way you try to politize the article, that's by itself pretty against the whole concept of ethnicity. The concept of ethnicity can be seen to cover, language/culture, biology, religion and self-identification (must be reciprocatory from the behalf of the community). Religion is not part of ethnicity in Nordic countries, since pretty much everyone from Danes to Inuits are Lutheren. Let's try exclusion method.

Was Tove Jansson unlingually Swedish:yes

Was Tove Jansson biologically Swedish:yes

How did Tove Jansson and others perceived her ethnicity: (finlands)svensk

So, all in all we are left with citizenship, do not say it's an issue while determining ethnicity of an individual. An article about Swedish ethnicity must cover a Swedish-speaking group whose folklore and culture hails directlty from fornsvenska, irrespective of whether we today seem them as seperate ethnicity or not. To exclude members from the article just because of~the existance of Finlandssvenskarnas Riksförbund in Sverige would be pure arbitrary.Podomi (talk) 20:22, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

And I'm back. Like I've said countless times before - Finland-Swedes are not a subgroup of Swedes. There are no sub-branches when it comes to ethnicity. Only when it comes to racial biology (do you study it?) or linguistics. Swedes and Finland-Swedes are different ethnic groups with a common ancestor. A bit like how humans having a common ancestor with apes doesn't make us apes. All ethnic groups in the world derive from somewhere else. Cultural evolution is a fact and it has existed forever. Self-identification has EVERYTHING to do with ethnicity. And sure, we can go into the philosophical argument of "What's in a name?" What's the difference really between Turks and Azeri Turks? Does it matter when both identify as different ethnicities? The politically correct term for Azeri Turks today is Azerbaijanis whilst the politically correct term for Finland-Swedes is Swedish-speaking Finns. For a very good reason - so people like you don't get confused.

Still no suggestions for pictures? This discussion really is going nowhere. --Lilyserbia (talk) 20:58, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

I still support Tove Jansson as the best compromise solution. But so the trolls won't freighten you I suggest Johan Ludvig Runeberg. Soon all Swedes (both in Finland and Sweden) will sing "Sköna maj, välkommen till vår bygd igen!..." Närking (talk) 08:28, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Linus Torvalds

I noticed that Linus Torvalds is pictured and listed as a Swede. Torvalds, however, is not Swedish but Finnish and should thus not be listed. 91.156.149.187 (talk) 12:56, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Yep, I changed it. People can argue all they want that Linus is Swedish but I don't buy it. Some disagree of course but I don't think it's right naming him as one of the "famous Swedes" because of the fact that it's such a controversial subject. --Lilyserbia (talk) 12:27, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

An easy way to avoid all tussles regarding citizenship is to have a seperate plate about Finland-Swedes, who are also part of Swedish nation, in the ethno-linguistic sense, and thus should be somehow recognized in the article, also visual wise. The plate could have for example Tove Jansson, Linus Torvalds, and perhaps the reknown voyager Adolf Nordenskiöld who later even switched his Russian citizenship to Swedish.Podomi (talk) 11:19, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think Finland-Swedes should be visible here also. For example Johan Ludvig Runeberg and Tove Jansson are surely both important contributors to the Swedish culture. Who isn't longing for "Sköna maj, välkommen" right now!

By the way, today someone suddenly has added pictures of several Finland-Swedes to the article about Finns. Närking (talk) 18:00, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Agreed with Narking. Indeed, Stockholm has even a street named after Runeberg whose epic-work ,Kung Fjalar, is regarded as one of the most important pieces of Swedish/Scandinavian literature. In addition to Tove Jansson there's the whole gang of Finland-Swedish decadent modernists (Södergran, Diktonius, Björling, Enckell etc), who had very crucial role in shaping Swedish literature.

It appears that all of the articles which have a (Finland)-Swedish connotation are subjected to very unconventional practises. For example, the article about "Swedish-speaking Finns" is already by its name very controversial. I tried to change it earlier back to the original "Finland-Swedes", which is direct translation from "finlandssvenskar", but these attempts were succesfully opposed by Finnish posters who generally seem to oppose the connection the Swedish connection. According to Canadian bi-lingual scholar, Kenneth McRae (1999) the Finnish intellectual have not accepted the multiculturalist creed, unlike states like Canada and Switzerland, and have been historically opposed the fact that Finland-Swedes refer themselves as "finlandssvenskar". According to the Finnish logic, all residents of Finland are "Finns". I find this as somewhat archaich, nationalistic view and even somewhat scary. Ironically we do not have this problem with the Sami's and Gypsies, who are referred as "Sami's" and "Gypsies" respectively without the "speaking"-wording in the end of the word indicating ethnicity.

The title of the "Swedish-speaking Finns", article should be put in its neutral form "Swedish-speaking population of Finland". In fact this version is also used in Finnish constitution (Svenskspråkig befolkning). I accept support for the change of title with great enthusiasm.

And I think that we should have Tove Jansson, instead of Linus, to highlight the Swedish cultural extension outside the state of Sweden. Tove is the third most transalated Swedish-writing author and was born to Mainland-Swedish mother (a father was finlandssvensk) thus it's lot more easier to defend the legitimacy of her presence in the visual gallery.Podomi (talk) 16:49, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Tove Jansson was on the original list I had but was voted out here on the talkpage because we already had Astrid Lindgren. But I don't mind changing to Tove instead of Linus. That would also mean more women in the picture.

And yes, the situation in Finland with the denial of a common history with Sweden is strange. And sadly it's also very visible in historical articles here. It's almost a joke that in the article about Turku it's not even mentioned that the city was known as Åbo for several hundred of years and that it was one of the most important cities in Sweden. Närking (talk) 18:31, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately Finland is still plagued very much by Ultra-nationalism, the collective inferiority complex of the Finnish-speaking nation adds its extra tinge to the whole movement.

It's common for Finnish-speakers to interprete the Finnish constitution, in regards to its language acts, that Swedish and Finnish are both languages of the state, instead of the languages of the respective nationalities, nationalitet (not to be confused with the concept of citizenship). That's why Finland-Swedes are referred as "Finns".

I am not sure whether the article of Helsinki/Helsingfors even bother to mention that the town established by Gustav Vasa, at the heart of Svenskfinland, was 99% Swedish-speaking in 1808 when the first population census was carried. The town coat of arms still has its viking ship after its initial settlers from Hälsingland.Podomi (talk) 19:43, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I've changed the picture to Tove Jansson now. And hopefully it will stay there for a while now. Närking (talk) 18:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I think it is fine to have Tove or Linus in the picture box. I don't understand why it keeps changing back and forth. Even though it has not been a part of Sweden for 200 years now but Swedish-Finns are closely related to Sweden historically, physically and culturally. Isn't that what ethnicity is all about? Simply identifying them as a part of the Swedish ethnicity does not mean that Sweden "claims" them as their own. This page is getting silly. It seems to me that we can only identity one's "Ethnic Swedishness" by the Tax Agency's records. Why are people making this such a difficult subject? The Swedish page is already one of the least informative pages from the ethnicity category, and the recent debates are not helping either.

Er... it has everything to be with claiming. If finlandssvenskar are Swedish then Swedes may as well be Danes. An ethnic group is a group of people who IDENTIFY WITH EACH OTHER - who are you to judge how similar or unsimilar people are to each other? Go by tradition and language and azeris and turks might as well be the same people. But they're not because they don't IDENTIFY as being one group. Swedes DO NOT identify with Finland-Swedes. Finland-Swedes are their OWN ethnic group. I am very much against Tove Jansson being listed as a Swede since she is an important part of Finnish literature history. I'm not the only one who sees this way as we just had someone from Finland try to change it back as well.

The bottomline is that whether or not I'm right or you're right is irrelevant. The topic is too CONTROVERSIAL for us to have a picture of a Finland-Swede in the most famous Swedish people section. And you WILL get people changing it again and again because they disagree with you. Why not just let Finland-Swedes have their own section in the article and let people decide from there how they want to categorise them? --Lilyserbia (talk) 15:37, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Once again this is not an article about Swedish citizens. And your replacement with a half-German who has has lived half his life in Switzerland can be discussed as much. And about Tove Jansson you perhaps can start to read from page 227 in "Den svenska litteraturen VI" from 1990. Närking (talk) 09:02, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

According to Finland-Swedish professor Tore Modeen, who also functioned as a eager minority right and identity scholar, the Swedish nation is comprised of Mainland-Swedes, Finland-Swedes and Åland islanders, (Europa Ethnica, "The cultural rights of the Swedish ethnic group in Finland", 1999). Comparison of between Danes and Swedes is flawed in this context. Unlike with Finland-Swedish coastal population, the language of Danes does not hail from proto-Swedish, (neither does the dialect of Scanians). Besides, even without having to have engage in ethnic identity debate over (Finland-)Swedishness, we can argue from sheer objective and neutral standpoint that Tove Jansson's mother was a Mainland-Swede. Jansson has had a big impact to the Swedish literature, at the both sides of the gulf. It would be bizarre if we could not add uni-lingually Swedish-speaking person, born to a Mainland-Swedish mother, to a gallery of famous Swedes. What is stopping us, Finnish(-speaking) national self-esteem?

Even if we tended to see Finland-Swedes as a seperate ethnicity or nation from the Mainland-Swedes, it's all irrelevant, since after all this article is about Swedish ethnicity and thus it ought to cater all forms of Swedish ethnicities existing, without giving a monopoly for Mainland-Swedes, something which is highlighted in the beginning of the article.

It's very important that we Tove Jansson in the gallery, it highlights that Swedish culture is not restricted to borders of contemporary national-state, Sweden, a construct of the 19th centuryPodomi (talk) 19:33, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I'll leave it as it is now since I can't be bothered to change it. But I am still offended by the fact that out of all famous Swedes there are that you could have chosen to represent us you choose what most Swedes would regard as a foreigner. --Lilyserbia (talk) 12:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

This article is not about your personal feelings. Believe it or not, but ethnicity is not limited to the borders of a country. --83.219.194.201 (talk) 17:35, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Ethnicity is all about personal feelings. It's a sociological term based on identification within a group and is not something that can be counted in statistics. And it's a given that those born and raised in Sweden are more Swedish than those who have never lived in Sweden. And it is insulting to claim a foreigner is more famous than all other famous Swedes. --Lilyserbia (talk) 10:02, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Why not replace her with August Strindberg? A rather uncontroversial solution, and we can't deny the fact that Strindberg should be in the infobox. Nymf _hideliho! 12:50, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Excellent suggestion! I'll make an image with him when I have the time. --Lilyserbia (talk) 10:11, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with Strindberg, but that would be one more male and there is also a point in showing a Finland-Swede among the pictured Swedes since it will correspond better with the rest of the article. Närking (talk) 14:43, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, the point is to spread forth your right-wing semi-racist agenda. That's the fact of the matter, plain and simple. The only person who would insist on putting a finlandssvensk in the Swedish section is someone who racially classifies people into different groups - a pseudo-science not supported by the mainstream. Someone who cared about true claims of ETHNIC IDENTITY would know a finlandssvensk does not belong in that box. --Lilyserbia (talk) 10:11, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Now it's clear that you have no idea what you are talking about. And your personal attacks won't help you. What you just wrote is way over WP:CIVIL and would render a block. The same goes with your "how many different IP addresses we have access to". Närking (talk) 15:10, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I find it very sad that we have people here who do not qualify uni-lingual Swedish-speaker, born to a Mainland-Swedish mother, in a category of famous Swedes. I find this infatuation with citizenship little outdated in modern Europe? However, as already stated this article does not render a monopoly over Mainland-Swedes, it covers all forms of Swedish ethnicities, at both sides of the gulfPodomi (talk) 17:36, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Why were the Finland Swedes which speak Swedish and have Swedish ancestry moved to form their own section? I thought the article on Swedish citizens was a different one. Is the reason that we have one Swede who personally does not identify with them? That Finland Swedes and Swedes don't root for the same team in ice-hockey does not mean that they don't share historical herritage and central aspects of their culture (language, snapsvisor, Lucia, midsommarstång etc.). 123.16.242.95 (talk) 16:19, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Tove Jansson

She was born in Finland, Helsinki. She is not Swedish, she was Swedish-speaking Finn. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.194.175.207 (talk) 16:41, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

This article is not about Swedish citizens but about Swedes. Tove Jansson was a well-known Finland-Swede. Närking (talk) 17:17, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Then it should mention that she was a Finnish-Swede. She was Finnish-Swede, but this article is about Swedes, so she doesn't belong in this article. Just same issue was with Linus Torvalds. Please, change that. It is same, if I say that Folke Bernadotte is Finnish, because her mother's father was Finnish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.106.238.232 (talk) 20:02, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

She was a Finland-Swede that are mentioned in the article. Not that it has anything to do with this, but Folke Bernadotte's mother was Swedish, born in Jönköping, in a Swedish family. Närking (talk) 20:46, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

And it is even mentioned in the article that the topic is controversial. Which is why there should be no Swedish-speaking Finns in the picture box. Only those that the vast majority identify as Swedes should be allowed in there. --Lilyserbia (talk) 13:51, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Interesting to see your view is constantly changing. First you claimed that Finland-Swedes were ethnic Finns and when you noticed that the Finnish editors didn't think so you changed to say they were their own ethnic group. What's next? They are aliens? Just not Swedes. Seems like you have something against Swedes overall.[8] Närking (talk) 16:45, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Finland Swedes ARE Finns which is why I refer to them as Swedish-speaking Finns. Finns and Finland-Swedes have more in common than Swedes and Finland-Swedes. Only a racialist would deny it but I know you guys work along racial lines. When it comes to ethnicity I lean to them being classified as their own ethnic group because of the linguistic difference. Malin Åkerman is Canadian by nationality. This isn't a anthropology forum - this is a factual site. She was raised in Canada and she is a dual citizen. Check wikipedia's rules. Since she hasn't represented Sweden internationally she should be referred to as Canadian. I changed it to Swedish-Canadian to clarify. --Lilyserbia (talk) 22:52, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

This doesn't belong directltly to the article, but anyway. This Finnish bunch have been a active in wikipedia for quite a long time, and I think it's fair to say that the bunch is after for spreading their Fenno-chauvinism. They already managed to change the title of the article about Finland-Swedes as "Swedish-speaking Finns". I think we have to be more alert with this kind of acts in the future. Folke Bernadotte's mother's father was a Finland-Swedish noble by the name of Munck af Fulkila, a Swede born with a Russian citizenship.Podomi (talk) 21:05, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Lilyserbia once again I find your views very contradicting, on the matter of Finland-Swedes and ethnic Swedes outside of Sweden. At one point you are using Swedish born population in the info box, yet here you are say Malin Åkerman, who is born in Sweden no less, should be considered as Swedish-Canadian and Canadian only. How do you know she doesn't identify herself as a Swedes as well as a Canadian? Canada, like US and Australia, is an immigrant country.A lot of people identify themselves as Canadian as well as their ancestry. Yes, there is a term for that, Swedish Canadians in this case, but it is hardly mutual exclusive. In your theory you are saying that Malin can only identify herself as Swedish Canadian. But the fact is she is Canadian, Swedish Canadian and a Swede. Putting that aside I am curious as to how does an actor or a musician "represent" a country internationally? It's not sports. And besides there is no denying that we in Sweden still embrace her as a Swede, just like our many relatives in North America and abroad. Have you seen her ads and magazine covers here in Sweden lately?Nagbg (talk) 23:38, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

And there are many more similarities between the Finland-Swedes and Swedes than just the language. By including them here in this article does not mean that the Swedish government is claiming them as their citizens.Nagbg (talk) 23:38, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Last picture, again

I'm still alive and frankly annoyed that the picture was changed yet again even after we reached a compromise. I do not see Carl Sandburg as Swedish. Simple as that, really. But since he was raised in a Swedish family in non-assimilationist USA he in all likelyhood did. And that's why I made a compromise to include him. Too bad certain people chose not to respect that.

So we're back to square one. Tove Jansson and Linus Torvalds cannot be included because you cannot prove they identified as ethnic Swedes. And unlike Americans of Swedish ancestry the evidence is against you. According to this text the majority of Swedish speakers in Finland see themselves as a subgroup of Finns, not of Swedes:

In a 2005 survey, 82% of the Swedish-speaking respondents felt the following best described their identity among the different choices provided: "Both belonging to a separate culture and being a Finn like others." (Swedish: Både att höra till en egen kultur, men också att vara en finländare bland alla andra. Finnish: Kuulumista omaan kulttuuriin, mutta myös suomalaisena olemista muiden joukossa.) See (Swedish)(Finnish)"Folktingets undersökning om finlandssvenskarnas identitet – Identitet och framtid", Folktinget, 2005.

I'm keeping their numbers in there simply because this is a controversial issue but for this same reason a Swedish-speaking Finn should not be allowed in the box. So you are free to start naming alternatives (again) if Carl Sandburg isn't to your satisfaction. You can pick a Swedish speaker from Finland if you wish as long as you can prove they belong to what would be the minority who identifies as Swedes.

I would be able to compromise with Anders Chydenius since he was undoubtably seen as Swedish at the time he was alive. Will he be a suitable alternative for all you Finland-fanatics? --Lilyserbia (talk) 23:46, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Interesting to see that you suggest Anders Chydenius as a compromise. He of course could fit there together with the others but that you have doubts he really wouldn't fit as a Swede shows the lack of knowledge in history. Chydenius was born in, lived in and died in Sweden. But as for now I think there are enough men in the picture. Närking (talk) 19:03, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

So according to you Finns never existed until 1809? Interesting. Given geographic isolation it's not unlikely people in what is today coastal Finland identified primarily with one another. And what is ethnicity if not mutual identification? Like I said - if you want someone from Finland pick Chydenius (who by the way is far more of an icon than Tove Jansson is). If you want a woman you're going to have to find someone else for aforementioned reasons. Personally I would like to see Birgit Nilsson on there if you want a woman. Both because no singers are listed and because she's a Scanian. Give it a thought. --Lilyserbia (talk) 01:23, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Of course there were ethnic Finns before 1809. You just didn't mention one. Närking (talk) 10:44, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Page protection

I've protected the article to stop the edit war that's rolling along. If you can't agree on which version to put in, why not just use a 9 person version? Anyway, resume the debates you've started above, and reach consensus. GedUK  17:09, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Ethnnicity

I am a bit astonished to see all this jingoistic fervour about finlandssvenskar. For me, it is completely clear that ancestry or language do not make anyone Swedish. It is a matter of self-identification, and nothing else. The notion of "biologically Swedish" individuals is nothing but sickening Neo-nazi jargon and total garbage. Podomi's ideological views emerge quite clearly from his racist comments regarding Finns. I suggest that you find out a remarkable finlandssvensk person who clearly identified him/herself as an ethnic Swede in the modern sense. His or her picture is fine in the gallery. Such individuals must exist. Axel Freudenthal was a seminal case. Tove Jansson or Linus Torvalds just will not do until you present clear evidence that they actually consider(ed) themselves as ethnic Swedes. If that kind of evidence exists, then OK! That should be self-evidently clear for anyone with a slightest idea of history or social sciences. Do you guys read anything else than nationalist pamphlets?

The identity discourse of finlandssvenskar is a complicated issue and includes a lot of varying view-points. This is unavoidable when you are dealing with subject matter which is highly subjective and always politicized in a way or another. Wikipedia cannot simplify or hide the basic facts just because some Swedish or Swedish-speaking nationalists happen to insist so.--130.234.68.223 (talk) 10:34, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

It's amusing to see that you call every editor except yourself a nationalist. That's humour. Närking (talk) 18:58, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

@130.234.68.223, your view of ethnicity is rather one-folded, the concept is obviously multi-faceted, and obviously includes also biological ancestry, although it's far from being the only factor of ethnicity.

"Finland has a Swedish-speaking minority that meets the four major criteria of ethnicity, i.e. self-identification of ethnicity, language, social structure and ancestry" (Allardt and Starck, 1981)

It would be ridiculous to assert that self-identification alone would make up the ethnicity, it must always be reciprocatory from the behalf of the community. Anyway, your view of Finland-Swedes is obviously very, very bizarre, but it doesn't matter. Finland-Swedes are a Swedish ethnic group. That's why they re called svenskar, finlandssvenskar in other words, and that's why they are to be included in the article. As so many times concluded, this article does not render a monopoly for Mainland-Swedes, but ought to cover Swedes where-ever they are. It would be ridiculous to not add a very famous uni-lingually Swedish person, born to Mainland-Swedish mother in a culture which hails directly from fornsvenska in the gallery of Swedes just because couple complexed fenno-nationalist thinks that the issue is controversial. It's not. And even if this article was more Sweden oriented, we'd still have very sound reasons to add a Finland-Swede along, after all, the Swedish ethnic minority in Finland also shows ethnic affinity with the state of Sweden, not really a rocket science, "that should be self-evidently clear for anyone with a slightest idea of history or social sciences".

”It is concluded that Finland-Swedes are over-represented in the total migrationprocess from Finland to Sweden. As such, the process is culturally embedded in the group´s ethnic identity, which causes migration both through the practical minority situation in Finland and through ethnic affinity with Sweden” .(Hedberg, 2005 "Finland-Swedish wheel of migration")Podomi (talk) 20:56, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Well said anon! And Podomi - we've already discussed this. I have "ethnic affinity" for all Nordics - this doesn't mean we are all one ethnicity. And the first source, apart from being an opinion, is also ooold. The only "Finland-Swedes" I would accept having in the box are those who have lived in Sweden for a while and have assimilated into the Swedish culture. Such as Mark Levengood for example, although I really don't think he deserves to be there. But just as an example.

Swedish speaking Finns already have their own article at wikipedia. Let's keep this page for the Swedes, thankyou. --Lilyserbia (talk) 21:10, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Fun to see you have friends among Finnish nationalists. Must feel good. Närking (talk) 21:46, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, we've indeed discussed about this. You've made your point of (Finland)-Swedes being a seperate ethnic group. Ok! The Scanians might just be an ethnic group of their own as well, not to forget Bornholm Danes. Actually the Scanians might even be a better candidate for a seperate ethnic group, after all, their dialect hails from proto-Danish, as opposed to dialect of Finland-Swedes which is nothing but a derivative of arhaich proto-Swedish. The point is that in the article of Swedes, we naturally cover svenskar, both riksvenskar and finlandssvenskar, without giving a monopoly to certain group. That is, all forms of Swedish ethnicity should be covered. We could ofcourse put up a seperate picture gallery for the Swedish ethnic group in Finland.Podomi (talk) 15:08, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Total Population Statistics

It seems that this figure, 9.4 million is based on the number 9,354,462 provided in the Sweden article. If that is the case then the number supplied for the ethnic group of Swedes are considered to be composed of the whole population of Swedish citizens. Even taking the number of ethnic Swedes in Sweden, here stated to be 7,700,000, and adding it to "Swedish citizens/Swedish speakers", it still does not come together as 9.4 million. Adding those two groups together with "Swedish-speaking Finns/Finland-Swedes", still only constitutes about 8.3 million if put together.

So is the figure really composed of the number of people currently registered to be living in Sweden, or are there shadow numbers not written in the section of "Regions with significant populations"? Wigert (talk) 20:26, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

As problem as been amended, discussion has reached its conclusion on the subject. Wigert (talk) 17:10, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

finlandssvenskar

I find it very bizarre that an article about "ethnic"-Swedes (not the residents of the national state of Sweden) does not have a word about the Ethnic-Swedes expansion across the gulf to the present day Finland. What should we do?Podomi (talk) 10:59, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that there are ethnic Swedes living in Finland is not more strange than there are ethnic Hungarians living in Romania, Slovakia and Serbia for example. Most ethnic Swedes that lived in Estonia live in Sweden now though. Feel free to add more about this in the article. Närking (talk) 15:25, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I have to work on it. There must be some kind of an illustration of the Swedish-speaking ethnic groups across the Baltics.Podomi (talk) 05:51, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Number of Swedes in Sweden

As the Swedish government does not keep any statistics on ethnicity, there are no exact numbers on the total number of people of immigrant background in Sweden. Stating that the number of Swedes in Sweden is equal to the number of citizens in Sweden with Swedish nationality is false and misleading since there are many Swedish citizens who are of immigrant background.

The introductory paragraph of this article states that the article is about the Swedish ethnic group, the definition of ethnic group is ambiguous but it usually is up to the individual to identify with an ethnic group. Also the Swedish government doesn't define ethnic Swede and it doesn't say that ethnic Swede means the same as Swedish citizen. No one has asked every citizen of Sweden which ethnic group they identify with. So the figures can't be correct. I will therefore state that the numbers of Swedes in Sweden is Unknown as well as the total number of Swedes.

If this article is about the Swedish nationality and not the ethnic group, anyone reading this is welcome to amend the introductory paragraph to state this and make it clear that the article is about Swedes regardless of ancestry.--Grondolf (talk) 13:41, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this is an estimation, which is the case with many other articles about peoples. Although it's a rather good one since there are indeed statistics telling how many are born abroad and how many have parents born abroad. A sourced estimation is far better than just writing unknown. Närking (talk) 18:58, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

From the source "excluding 1,661,003 persons, or 17.9% of the population, living in Sweden with immigrant background". Where does it say that they are excluding the nationalized citizens living in Sweden with immigrant background, which by the way are quite a lot? The figure is for citizens with nationality, how is that a good estimate considering Sweden's naturalization laws?--Grondolf (talk) 20:47, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually Statistics Sweden gives the figure 1.733.913 for people with foreign bakground in 2009 which is about 18,56% of the population (which includes citizens and non-citizens of Sweden). And I don't see what Swedish legislation has to do with this. Närking (talk) 22:42, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Germanic

I am removing Alphasinus unsourced changes introducing the notion that Swedes are a "Germanic ethnic group". This classification is is unsourced and arbitrary, Germanic is a linguistic category not an ethnic one and we could equally well write "indo-European ethnic group", but that also contributes no relevant information. Swedes are an ethno-national group that speak a germanic language. ·Maunus·ƛ· 02:53, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

I also think it's strange that Germans are considered a "related ethnic group" while Finns are not! Don't Swedes and Finns have a lot in common? Aaker (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Do you have a source yourself that states otherwise ? no, you do not so i suggest you to stop your disruptive editing before you get blocked for vandalism , and why does then Germans are a germanic group (not sourced) russians are east slavic (not sourced) or turkmen are turkic (neither sourced) you seem to stalk many people and revert improvements, am not the olny one who has problems with youre editsKids4Fun/TALK 13:00, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

You are gettiung the burden of evidence backwards - inclusion requires sources - exclusion doesn't. You should read our policies such as WP:V which states that any uncited information can be removed without discussion and cannot be reinserted without a reliable source. I also sucggest you look at WP:VANDAL since you seem to be confused about what vandalism is - a confusion which in fcat puts you in danger of being blocked yourself unless you stop making unfounded accusations of vandalism. Also please quite the other personal attacks or you will be reported to the relevant notice board.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:19, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

oh if it is about the culture then good please contribute to swedish culture related articles and avoid reverting edits on this article, and you dont have to be a nazi just to know that one of the main things about ethnicity is actually about ancestry ,and yes ethnicity is also about culture but that doesent change peoples ethnicity , so you mean you could choose to be russian one year just because you do russian traditions and speaking russian and the next year say "oh am a german i can speak german celebrate german traditions" and so on, so your arguemtens doesent actually work here eitherFREESAVELIY^talk 17:44, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Ethnicity is a cultural category. Perhaps you should stop contributing to topics you know nothing about yourself. Also please read our policies on sources before trying to supoport baseless claims with more useless sources.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:11, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Monarchs

I just noticed that there are no Swedish monarchs in the article's portrays in the upper right corner. To me this seems odd as there are several monarchs in Sweden's history that have had a profound effect on Europe and the world as we know it today (Gustav Adolf II for example). --94.255.146.95 (talk) 17:20, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

How many of them were/are ethnic Swedes? What about Silvia Sommerlath or Jean Baptiste Jules Bernadotte? Aaker (talk) 14:05, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

All of them were at least half-Swedish, except maybe the first kings of the Bernadotte line, but those are of lesser importance. After some quick research I know that Gustav II Adolf, grandson of Gustav Vasa, was fully Swedish. --94.255.146.95 (talk) 08:57, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Finns as a related ethnic group

I've added Finnish people to the list of related ethnic groups. I have brought up this issue before and I think it's about time to do it again. "Sweden and Finland have a 700 years common history, there has always been significant migration between these two countries, and as a consequence Swedish and Finnish culture are very similar (and also the genealogy if it should be considered). Swedish is an official language in Finland and Finnish is the largest minority language in Sweden (hence it's even hard to define who is a Swede and who is Finn). Both countries/peoples also share a strong Nordic identity." Also, if you read the article about Finns, Swedish is listed as one of their languages. Aaker (talk) 14:23, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

It matters very little that they have a 700 year common history. That's only because they share a border. Fact is genetically, the Finns are unrelated as an ethnic group to the Swedes. The Swedes are a Germanic peoples, while the Finns are not. They have no genetic relation. That is fact. The Finns are a Uralic peoples, while the Swedes are a Germanic peoples. Totally unrelated ethnically. Now, Swedish-Finns are ethnically related to the Swedes - those are Swedes who have lived in Finland, but the Finns as an ethnic group are unrelated to them. One is Uralic, the other is Germanic. Swedes are related to the Norwegians, Danes, Germans/Austrians, Dutch, Icelanders, and other Germanic peoples. Finns are not Germanic. TheGoodSon 17:50, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Being swedish is not a matter of genes it is a matter of ethnicity, nationality and identity - cultural concepts. Ethnic groups can be related in many ways - having populations belonging to the same genetic groups or speaking related languages are not the most important ways. Finnish should be included.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:05, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes Maunus, but the Swedes are Germanic peoples and share closer ties to other Germanic peoples (Danes, Norwegians, Germans, etc) culturally, linguistically, and genetically. Just because Sweden and Finland share a border it does not make them ethnically related. Yes, they share a long history (usually an antagonistic history between them with many wars fought between the 2 countries) and many Finns live in Sweden and many Swedes live in Finland - but how does that make them ethnically related? It just means they share a long history together and have political ties. So what? France and Germany have political ties, share a border, and a long history of Germans living in France and vice-versa, but does that make them ethnically related? No it does not. It's the same thing with Austria and Croatia, for example. Totally ethnically unrelated, but they have a long history. Croatian is even an official language in some parts of Austria. That doesn't mean they are ethnically related. TheGoodSon 18:40, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

You are not doing a good job at showing that you understand what "ethnic" means - you are basically just making unfounded statements about bwhich groups you consider to be related and which not. Of course the Fench and Germans are ethnically related, they both speak indo-european languages, the French are historically Germanic Franks who started speaking a romance language. The main problem is that the infobox even has that field - since there is no good definition of what it means for to ethnic groups to be related. Meanwhile, enforcing a criteria of genetics as the exclusive criterion of relatedness is not a good idea.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:51, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

But we would not consider the French and the Germans as "ethnically related" today. Look, all of Europe share a history together and all are related to each other in one way or another (all Europeans are Caucasians, or "white people"). But, there are still differences aswell. Most of Europeans speak Indo-European languages, besides the Finns, Hungarians, Estonians, Russians, and other Eastern and Southern Europeans (ie. Greeks). The Germanic peoples (ie. Swedes, Germans, Norwegians, Danes, Dutch, Icelandic, etc) have cultural, linguistic, and genetic ties to each other that make them ethnically closer to each other than to other Europeans. Spaniards, Portuguese, Italians, and the French also share similar linguistic, cultural, and genetic ties to each other. Romanians share linguistic ties to the French, Italians, Spaniards, etc but they aren't genetically related to them. The Finns are a Uralic peoples that have their own Finno-Uralic language, culture, and genetics. TheGoodSon 19:41, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Scandinavian ?!

what does that have to do with the modern swedish nation and ethnic group other than a "historical cultural-linguistic region" as you quoted it yourself , i neither understand why it was included in the first place , there are no sources and if we use "scandinavian" doesen't that mean that we should call them indo european like this : the swedes are a indo-european scandinavian nation and ethnic group and that neither makes any sense Ricekrosalkl (talk) 18:59, 29 December 2011 (UTC)