Talk:Sweetest Day/Archive 1

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Worst holiday ever. Forreals.--70.48.212.94 05:53, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

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We celebrate it in Wisconsin, too.

Error:

If the first Sweetest Day was celebrated in 1922, it didn't have anything to do with the Great Depression, which didn't occur until 7 years later. The "pieholes" comment in the first sentence could be expressed in a more credible voice, also.

The Real History of "Sweetest Day"

The Real History of Sweetest Day:

http://web.mac.com/miracleimpulse/iWeb/Site%203/Sweetest%20Day%20Slideshow.html

Note that someone is editing out all negative comments about "Sweetest Day" and "Hallmark Holidays" on this Wikipedia Site.

I wonder who would want to do that?

Go to "Edit History" and read former posts on this topic.

Disputed tag added

I've added a disputed tag to this article per the comments in this edit: [1]. Someone knowlegeable needs to check this out... --HappyCamper 22:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

What people do on sweetest day

This article forgets to mention what people do on sweetest day. S Sepp 12:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Re: What People Do On Sweetest Day

On "Sweetest Day" a large group of people (Greeting Card Companies, Florists, Candy Companies, Retailers, etc) attempt to deceive an even larger group of people (Consumers) by telling them a fake story about this holiday in order to guilt them into buying their products in an otherwise slow season. "Isn't Halloween a big enough candy-buying holiday?" you ask. Yes, but people don't generally buy flowers and send greeting cards for Halloween. Hence the fraudulent story of Mr. Kingston and his acts of kindness. The promotion of "Sweetest Day" undermines the credibility of all companies which participate in this 85-year-old scam.

INDUSTRY IS SPINNING WIKIPEDIA

It is obvious from reading the former edits on the topic of "Sweetest Day" that industry is still spinning the story of "Sweetest Day" right here on Wikipedia. For example, on the most recent edit the editor states that he "removed scare quotes." The quotes removed were:

"World War Two did not interrupt the promotion of "Sweetest Day." Neither did the events of 9/11/2001. American Greetings, Hallmark, Retail Confectioners International and every retailer who participates in this manufactured "holiday" have promoted "Sweetest Day" five times since 9/11/2001."

These statements are not "scare quotes," they are NEUTRAL FACTS.

If the NEUTRAL FACTS of the history of "Sweetest Day" are disturbing, perhaps America and these industries should reconsider this engineered "observance."

It IS disturbing that while hundreds of thousands of American Service Personnel were being killed and MILLIONS were being exterminated by ANTI-SENTIMENT during World War Two, the Candy Industry never gave up on it's MANIPULATION of American Consumers.

It IS disturbing that American Greetings and Hallmark have elected to spin a fake "holiday" for America 5 TIMES since the events of 9/11/2001 and War on Terror began. Especially given the FACT that they are blocking all patented new greeting card products from the US Greeting Card Marketplace in order to keep their OBFUSCATED MONOPOLY level.

These NEUTRAL FACTS will be re-inserted into the edit; Americans have a right to know and understand and make decisions based on ALL THE FACTS.

(Note: the above comments were added by 24.12.179.210)

Hello, 24.12,179.210. Welcome to Wikipedia, and thank you for your contributions, which I agree are valuable to present the complete background of Sweetest Day.

On another note, however, it appears that some of the changes you made to this article do not conform to Wikipedia's neutral point-of-view policy. For example, asserting that the histories posited by the candy industry are "contrived" (although I myself tend to agree that that is in fact an accurate description) most likely is an unacceptably loaded form of editorializing. Perhaps it might be more in line with Wikipedia's policies to change that section title simply to "The Candy Industry's Story," and let the readers draw their own conclusions regarding the factuality (or lack thereof) of the candy industry's putative history?

Certain other changes also tend to reflect a strong point of view on the validity of Sweetest Day, which probably should likewise be toned down to reduce possible inappropriate non-NPOV issues.

--Ryanaxp 23:37, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Scare quotes

Oh, I forgot to add one thing. In your (24.12.179.210) comments above, you seem to be confused with regard to the meaning of scare quotes. This phrase (scare quotes) does not refer to quotes that are believed to be appeals to the reader's fears, as you appear to have construed in your comments. Rather, "scare quotes" simply refers to putting quotation marks around words (see the beginning of this sentence, for example) in order to convey the author's skepticism or contempt for whatever is within the quotation marks.

So, I trust you understand that I did not remove any actual quotations (that is, words reflecting the statements or writings of a third person) from the article. What I did, however, was remove quotation marks from around the phrase Sweetest Day throughout the article. I did not do this because I disagree that Sweetest Day is a made-up holiday, but because scare quotes are generally contrary to good style (and in this case, represent inappropriate editorializing).

--Ryanaxp 23:48, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV Issues

This article is heavily slanted towards an anti-Sweetest Day point of view. While I tend to agree that Sweetest Day is probably the most blatant Hallmark holiday out there, this article needs to describe the holiday and the critism of the holiday while not using words and phrases like: "cynical", "scheme", "contrived", "cash cow", "guilt [...] citizens into buying candy", "exploitative and engineered", "disinformation bandwagon", etc. I've tried to remove POV words from the first part of the article (though the end of "Origin of Sweetest Day" needs work). However the "Refutation of the Contrived Industry Story" section needs some major editing. It would also be good to cite sources (e.g. Plain Dealer articles). --Transfinite 22:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Now that I read this more, I have to wonder who the "critics" are, exactly. Just calling them critics is a textbook example of weasel words. Name names as far as who is opposed to this holiday. --Transfinite 00:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear Transfinite,

Editing out the facts is not the way to resolve an NPOV issue. Your edit looks more like an industry spin.

The Herbert Birch Kingston story of Sweetest Day is a fake, and there is no neutral point of view about it. Sweetest Day was planned and executed by a committee of 12 candymakers, who spared no effort to influence the buying habits of Clevelanders beginning in 1921, not 1922.

October 8th, 2006 will be the 85th anniversary of the first Sweetest Day, which was staged in Cleveland by the Candy Industry on October 8th, 1921.

Here are photos of the 12 real Founders of Sweetest Day, which were published in The Cleveland Plain Dealer on October 8th, 1922:

File:12 Founders of Sweetest Day 2.JPEG

The names of the 12 Candy Makers who founded Sweetest Day were:

C.R. CANTER, A.E. BARTON, R.T. FULLER, J.J. WILSDON, R.H. SHEEHAN, W.A. KATZENMEYER, A.A. SAROUCH, LOUIS HAHN, W.J. NICHOLS, C.C. HARTSELL (chairman of the "Sweetest Day in the Year Committee"), L. NARWOOD, and L.E. GRUBER.

Note that Herbert Birch Kingston is NOT among them. Herbert Birch Kingston disappeared from the Cleveland Census after 1920 and never reappeared.

The Herbert Birch Kingston Story of the origins of Sweetest Day is NOT verifiable. Although a Google search for Mr. Kingston turns up over 200,000 results, an image search Turns up ZERO results. Unless a photo of Mr. Kingston is published on this site and Mr. Kingston is somehow linked to the origins of Sweetest Day, your edit of this topic is a FRAUD.

Are you sure you aren't an Industry Spindoctor trying to prep this site for Sweetest Day 2006?

Miracleimpulse 18:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

1. Can you cite a secondary source with the accusations of a fraudulent beginning? If not, than this is a "new analysis or synthesis" - you are combining two sources (the newspaper articles and the company's story) and producing a new opinion, which is original research. See WP:NOR#Synthesis_of_published_material_serving_to_advance_a_position.
2. Since there are no secondary sources cited, the article is full of weasel words (for example "the holiday is criticized for being nothing more than a scheme to drive up sales of candy" - the sentence doesn't say who is doing the criticizing). See WP:WEASEL.
3. The article before I edited it was full of words that heavily favored the anti-corporate side of this issue without giving much weight to the company's side. (For example, the H.R. Kingston story was called "The Contrived Industry Story"). See WP:NPOV.
4. Capital letters are considered shouting in text format. There is no need for shouting.
5. I do not work for a candy or greeting card company, nor does the company I work for have any contracts with a candy or greeting card company. Please remember not to make personal attacks (see WP:NPA). I do think candy is delicious, however.

--Transfinite 01:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

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One of the basic requirements of Wikipedia is verifiability. Though something is posted on several thousand websites does not make it true. The verified facts to date show that Sweetest Day was founded by a group of 12 men, all candymakers. The Chairman of the "Sweetest Day in the Year Committee" was C.C. Hartsell. Mr. Hartsell does not appear on the Cleveland census at any time, although a C.C. Hartsell does appear on the census near Kansas City, home of Whitman's Candies and Hallmark. Photos and confirmation of the activities of the "Sweetest Day in the Year Committee" with regard to to origin of Sweetest Day have been posted on this site. Whether perceived as a legend, a myth, or a "contrived industry marketing scheme," the Herbert Birch Kingston story of the origin of Sweetest Day remains unverified in any way. Please remove all references to "Herbert Birch Kingston," unless his role in the establishment of Sweetest Day can be verified historically in some way. Miracleimpulse 17:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for a secondary source on all this - a real historian who can place the newspaper articles in a proper historical context. I would say that a story that is essentially the same across several company and personal website is verified enough for me. The source you have cited against this topic is a personal website, which is not a reliable source. --Transfinite 01:35, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Good idea, Transfinite: what do the real historians have to say about Sweetest Day? Surely if the kind works of Mr. Kingston created a tradition in the city of Cleveland 85 years ago, some real historian would have reported it by now, don't you think? Before we address your secondary source issue, let's have a primary source on the Herbert Birch Kingston story. A news article, a photo, what about an encyclopedia article? Someone who isn't making money on the topic. The photos currently on my website are all from two issues of The Cleveland Plain Dealer, one dated October 8th, 1921 and the other dated October 8th, 1922. The Cleveland Plain Dealer had so much to say about Sweetest Day in 1921 and 1922...photos, news articles, editorials, and lots and lots of advertising...why didn't Herbert Birch Kingston even warrant a footnote? Miracleimpulse 07:15, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Transfinite, in your recent edit summary you typed "removed original research." This is not correct. What you removed was primary source information derived from 2 issues of The Cleveland Plain Dealer dated 10/8/1921 and 10/8/1922. This information, which demonstrates that Sweetest Day was founded by 12 Confectioners led by C.C. Hartsell (Chairman of the Sweetest Day in the Year Comittee), completely refutes the "Herbert Birch Kingston" disinformation about the origins of Sweetest Day. Information from The Cleveland Plain Dealer Newspaper dated 1921 and 1922 is hardly original research. This information is available on microfilm in hundreds if not thousands of libraries across the country, and being published before 1923, it is all most likely public domain material. Please review what constitutes original reseach Original research and revert the article to reflect the true origins of Sweetest Day. Thank you. Miracleimpulse 07:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

You might wish to review what constitutes primary source information as well: Primary_source . Miracleimpulse 08:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

From WP:NOR: "Research that draws predominantly on primary sources is generally discouraged, in favor of research based on secondary sources." Also, "[A] new analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position" is original research. Also, there are several statements in the old version that I find hard to believe were in the newspaper articles, such as the accusation that "they" gave away candy in order to "guilt" people into buying candy. --Transfinite 17:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

My family is from rural Ohio and they did and do still have a sweetest day. Mostly home made stuff and very low key. We also did it in Florida at my elementary school. Sure its a created holiday, but Kwanzaa is equally artificial. 148.63.236.141 01:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Please provide citations, by using and filling out all of the fields of {{cite news}} for these newspaper articles that you are using as sources. If you want to make an argument that will convince other editors, cite sources. Sources are the best ways to win arguments at Wikipedia. (And if the sources disagree, we simply stay neutral.) Uncle G 16:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Removed Hoax tag

I'm not sure I agree the hoax tag. There is a difference between "hoax" and "popular mythology". The popular mythology of the day is that Kingston created it as day to honor orphans and shut-ins... and that version of events has been widely reported. This should be in the article (see WP:V verifiability not truth). If there is an alternate version of events that can be sourced (i.e. the Cleveland Plain Dealer Newspaper article, this could be included as well as an alternate, sourced, version of events. The article space is big enough for both versions without making any judgements as to which is true. Besides, the hoax tag is for articles that are primary hoaxes created in Wikipedia without external sourcing. Well known hoaxes that are documented here are just described as such in the article... not tagged.--Isotope23 16:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The Herbert Birch Kingston story of the origins of Sweetest Day is not "popular mythology." It is industry spin/disinformation. Industry is using Wikipedia to further spin this hoax as popular mytholoy. Miracleimpulse 16:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I disagree... Herbert Birch Kingston is the reported version of events and this easily constitutes a "popular mythology of the day. Whether there it is industry spin/disinformation is irrelevant to the fact that every single independently reported version of how this day started repeats the Herbert Birch Kingston version of events, making this version verifiable, if not true. I find no mention of the newspaper article you've referenced several times anywhere. I'd be sort of interested to see the actual text of the newspaper article (I can't read it in the image). If it WP:V states that this day was started by these 12 men as a way to sell confections, this would be an interesting addition to the article... it just has to be sourced. Regardless, the {{accuracy}} tag that is on the article right now is the correct one in this situation.--Isotope23 17:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The following article appeared on page 7 of the Cleveland Plain Dealer on Oct. 8th, 1921:

10,000 CHEERED BY CANDY GIFTS

Old Folks and Poor Remembered by "Sweetest Day in the Year" Committee

A little rain and a few black clouds failed to affect the spirit of Clevelanders who have come under the spell of the "Sweetest Day in the Year" committee.

The committee distributed 10,000 boxes of candy to Cleveland's orphanages and charitable institutions yesterday. This morning an additional 5,000 boxes of candy will be distributed by Ann Pennington, star of George White's "Scandals" at the Ohio theater this week, and Theda Bara peerless vampire of the screen, and Cleveland's first Sweetest day in the Year will be inaugurated.

Twenty-five hundred newsboys are expected to storm the Cleveland Advertising Club at the Hotel Statler this morning to receive candy from Ann Pennington.

At the same time Theda Bara will give away 2,000 boxes of candy in front of Loew's State Park and Liberty theaters. The candy will be given to every person who presents a card, mailed this week to families from lists compiled by charitable organizations.

C.C. Hartsell, chairman of the "Sweet Day in the Year" committee, and E.G. Winger supervised the distribution.

"Everywhere we went," Hartsell said, "we were greeted with cheers. At the Elisa Jennings Home one old lady told us with tears in her eyes that no one ever thought of giving them candy."

The purpose of the Sweetest Day in the Year is to bring happiness to everyone, Hartsell explained. The committee arranged to distribute the candy to those who would be unable to buy it. A movement to establish a national Sweetest day in the Year will be inaugrated next year, he said.

An image of this article will be uploaded soon. Being published before 1922, it is my understanding that this article is public domain. Where is Herbert Birch Kingston? Miracleimpulse 17:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment, OK... but that doesn't really prove anything either way, other than there was a committee who "distributed 10,000 boxes of candy to Cleveland's orphanages and charitable institutions yesterday." The fact that Kingston isn't mentioned doesn't logically prove he didn't invent the concept of "Sweetest Day" because it is not explicitly stated that this committee of 12 people invented the day. It would be an inference (and original research) to suggest from that text that these 12 people "invented" the day rather than Kingston, because this is never explicitly stated. The absence of information does not make necessarily make it false.--Isotope23 17:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't prove anything? It shows that 19,500 boxes of candy were distributed by the Sweetest Day in the Year Committee chaired by C.C. Hartsell, not Herbert Birch Kingston. Hallmark, by their own admission began marketing Sweetest Day cards in the 1960s. I believe Herbert Birch Kingston was still alive during that time period...and Hallmark didn't even take a photo of the guy they are attributing this holiday to? Please provide one item of primary source information (around the time the first Sweetest Day occurred) linking Herbert Birch Kingston to the origins of Sweetest Day. Miracleimpulse 17:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment, Who says that the "creator" of something necessarily has to be the "chairman" of the committee who carries it out? The fact that nobody took a photo of Kingston also proves just one thing: Nobody took a photo of him. It is an inference to say that has any greater significance. There is no reason or requirement to produce a primary source linking Kingston to the day. The fact is that there is an enormous number of secondary sources that link him to the day. I again point you to WP:V, specifically the text that reads verifiability, not truth. While this newspaper article you've cited is interesting, it in no way logically disproves the popular mythology of Sweetest Day. You need to find a better source for your claims.--Isotope23 18:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Who provided the 19,500 boxes of candy which were distributed by the Sweetest Day in the Year Committee on the first Sweetest Day? A candy store employee? What was the name of the candy store where Herbert Birch Kingston was employed? The largest candy ad in The Cleveland Plain Dealer on the first Sweetest Day (1921) was placed by Whitman's Candies. Did Whitman's provide the 19,500 boxes of candy? Why doesn't Whitman's even mention Sweetest Day on their website? http://www.russellstover.com/jump.jsp?itemID=206&itemType=CATEGORY&path=1%2C3%2C186%2C206 And again, industry disinformation, no matter how many websites promote it, is not popular mythology. Miracleimpulse 18:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment undoubtedly the candy manufacturing business in Cleveland profited greatly from this "holiday" both when it was conceived and in the ensuing years (and probably moreso today than they did at the inception), but for any of this information to be included in an article at Wikipedia, it needs to be verified, reliably sourced, and be free of original research and conjecture. Right now, none of the things you are claiming meet that burden of proof.

On another note... "industry disinformation" or marketing can quite easily become "popular mythology" if enough people buy into it. Ever hear of Santa Claus or Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer?--Isotope23 18:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I notice Herbert Birch Kingston disappeared from the article. I added him back in since it is sourced (for example at [2] and [3]) Also, Uncle G has some sources on the AfD page I'll check into (if my local library carries them). The are: Maud Lavin, ed. (2004-10-04). The Business of Holidays. Monacelli. ISBN 1580931502. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |date= (help), Scott C. Martin (1997). "Consumer Rites: The Buying and Selling of American Holidays". Journal of Social History. 31., and Bennett Madison and James Dignan (2002-12-28). I Hate Valentine's Day. Simon Spotlight Entertainment. ISBN 0689873727. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |date= (help). --Transfinite 22:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Herbert Birch Kingston

Transfinite, no one has expressed any doubt as to Herbert Birch Kingston's existence. He is clearly listed on the Cleveland census as a confectioner. There is zero evidence however that he formed the Sweetest Day in the Year Committee. It is more likely that the committee was appointed by the National Confectioner's Association or the Mayor of Candyland, not a candy company employee. Herbert Birch Kingston disappears from the Cleveland Census after 1920 and never returns. Until someone can demonstrate that Herbert Birch Kingston was involved in any way in the origins of Sweetest Day, all references to him should be deleted from this article. What relevance do secondary sources have when there is not a single primary source to back them up? Miracleimpulse 22:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I fixed the article to reflect your comments, Miracleimpulse. However, since so many sources agree that H.B. Kingston founded the holiday, it makes it verifiable and notable, so it should stay. --Transfinite 22:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The websites which maintain the Herbert Birch Kingston story are all profiting from Sweetest Day. Maybe we should leave these websites (like American Greetings and Hallmark) out of this editing process. Miracleimpulse 22:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It's very simple transfinite: provide one primary source reference which states that Herbert Birch Kingston put the Sweetest Day in the Year Committee together. The Herbert Birch Kingston story is the hoax on which Sweetest Day is currently founded. Miracleimpulse 23:03, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

And your contention that the Herbert Kingston version of events is a hoax is unverified original research. I've tagged the Criticism section because the latest additions are unsourced original research as well. They need to be sourced or removed.--Isotope23 01:06, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I've read Schmidt, and it makes for interesting reading. According to Schmidt, this holiday was invented in the 1910s, not in the 1920s. Miracleimpulse, please stop citing blurred and illegible purported photographs of newspaper articles as sources, and cite the actual newspaper articles, as I asked earlier in this talk page. Also, please maintain the article's neutral point of view. We have two sets of sources, with two disparate and conflicting accounts of the origin of this holiday. Please do not entirely erase one set in an attempt to promote the other as The Truth™. Uncle G 12:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Individual Images

What is the purpose of having the images of the individual committe members here when they can all be viewed via the external link? It just clutters up the page in my opinion without adding much to it.--Isotope23 15:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The 12 Sweetest Day in the Year Committeemen are notable because they "Arranged the Details of the Sweetest Day in the Year and Planned It's Success" according to The Cleveland Plain Dealer. Actually, the 12 Sweetest Day in the Year Committeemen worked for several years arranging the details of Sweetest Day, laying the groundwork for what has become this 85-year-old hoax. Now Isotope, there is still zero primary source info linking Herbert Birch Kingston to the origins of Sweetest Day. Why do you keep editing him back in? The fact that so many secondary sources link Kingston to Sweetest Day without a single primary source to back them up says one thing: hoax, which is exactly what the Herbert Birch Kingston story is. Miracleimpulse 16:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Becuase there doesn't have to be a primary source... in fact, basing something strictly off a primary source is highly discouraged. there are numerous secondary sources for this and thus it stays in the article. Look, I understand you believe Kingston is a hoax... but you have absolutely no proof of that. The fact that there is no primary source doesn't say hoax... that is an inference. All it says is "nobody has found a primary source for this and one may not exist".

Back to the pictures... I still don't see what purpose they serve. Having them in the article in no way "proves" your hypothesis and as they are readily viewable in the link to your own website, I'm not sure I see much value in having individual photos of people in the article... how does it add to this article or in any way make it better?--Isotope23 16:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

My website may not be permanent. The 12 photos stay. Miracleimpulse 16:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Furthermore, people have a right to make their own decisions about the character of these 12 Committeemen who founded Sweetest Day. As you look at their individual photos, do you get the feeling they were really trying to help orphans and old folks and people who had fallen on hard times? Or do they look more like they were interested in making big bucks from the sale of candy? Miracleimpulse 16:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• Comment, I don't get any feeling other than these are 12 grainy images from 1921 of 12 people who sat on the committee for the first Sweetest Day... and it adds nothing to the article. There is no image of Julius Sterling Morton on the Arbor Day article, nor is there any image of the organizers of the first Labor Day parade. Harry F. Klemfuss's photo is notably missing from Administrative Professionals' Day as well. It's not in line with other "holiday" articles to post an image gallery of those involved in early festivities... even if you believe they did create the day. For the record, if someone somehow found an image of Kingston I would say that would not be appropriate here either... it would only be appropriate in an article on him.--Isotope23 17:54, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• For that matter, why are any of the pictures of the 1921 Plain Dealer on the page? Besides being too fuzzy to read, they don't really add anything to the article. Citing the article should be enough, and the pictures are on MiracleImpulse's website. The pictures should be more in line with articles like Valentine's Day, or have no pictures at all, like Administrative Professionals' Day. --Transfinite 18:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• I agree... I'm trying to strike a happy medium here but I don't really see what value these images add to the article when the text can't be read. Citation of the newspaper article is in this article and that should be sufficient.--Isotope23 18:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• I don't see the harm in keeping the photos of the 12 men in the article. So the other articles don't have images of their founders, maybe they should! Just because something has been done one way doesn't necessarily mean it should stay that way. I don't see any harm in it and it adds color to the text. Also, Wikipedia isn't paper. So why not add the gallery back but maybe make the images a bit smaller? Dismas|^(talk) 19:54, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • OK, but what value does a gallery of 12 blurry photos of the "First Sweetest Day Committee" add to the article? I'm not deadset against this, I just don't see what it adds to the article. If it is added back, you are right it should be resized smaller just for page asthetics...--Isotope23 00:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

All I can offer is an opinion here. If irrefutable proof that Herbert Birch Kingston through his actions in 1922 inspired the Hallmark holiday that is now observed as "Sweetest Day" cannot be located, then any reference to him should be either removed from Wikipedia altogether, or tagged as unverifiable. Miracleimpulse's research is both thorough and sound, and should not be disputed without verifiable facts contradicting his or her research. Eyetomhas 02:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I think Mr. Kingston should get at least a mention, since both American Greetings and Hallmark claim he was the founder of Sweetest Day, as well as a several independent web sites. The only proof that he wasn't the founder is that he is not in Miracleimpulse's newspaper articles. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. --Transfinite 02:36, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Unanswered Sweetest Day Questions

As an American Greetings Shareholder for nearly a decade, I am extremely concerned about the apparent anti-competitive relationship which exists between American Greetings and Hallmark. It is my personal belief that American Greetings and Hallmark act as a perfect monopoly in the Greeting Card Industry, and that over the past 50 years or more this relationship has been extremely harmful to America and the world as a whole. Sweetest Day is only one example of how American Greetings and Hallmark are working together to deceive America.

Two years ago, I brought up the issue of Sweetest Day on the Yahoo Finance American Greetings Messageboard, and nearly a year ago I challenged anyone to post a photo or any information on Sweetest Day and Herbert Birch Kingston. You can read the entire message thread here: 1 261 messages and a lot of insults later, zero information, except for a wacky article published last year in The Cleveland Plain Dealer has been posted. No photos of Herbert Birch Kingston, no date of birth-death, no information about why he left Cleveland after 1920 or where he went. To my knowledge, no information about Herbert Birch Kingston (except the numerous websites which say exactly the same thing almost word-for-word about "Herbert Birch Kingston and his group of friends") exists anywhere. With that in mind, let's answer the following questions about Sweetest Day and Herbert Birch Kingston before we include Mr. Kingston in the edit (except as a hoax): 1) What was Herbert Birch Kingston's date of birth? 2) What was Herbert Birch Kingston's date of death? 3) What was the name of the candy company where Herbert Birch Kingston worked in Cleveland? 4) Did Mr. Kingston have a wife? What was her name? 5) Did Mr. Kingston have any children? What were their names? 6) Are any of Mr. Kingston's descendants still living? 7) Why hasn't the City of Cleveland ever recognized Sweetest Day as a holiday? 8) Why hasn't the City of Cleveland ever recognized Herbert Birch Kingston as a citizen? 9) Why did Mr. Kingston disappear from the Cleveland Census after 1920? Where did he go? 10) Was Mr. Kingston still alive when Hallmark started selling Sweetest Day cards in the 1960's? 11) Has Hallmark ever had any contact with Herbert Birch Kingston? What about American Greetings? (Especially American Greetings, after all, American Greetings has been located in Cleveland for over 100 years now.) 12) What do the Whitman's Candies archives say about Sweetest Day and Herbert Birch Kingston? (Whitman's Candies, located in Kansas City home of Hallmark, placed the largest ad in The Cleveland Plain Dealer on the first Sweetest Day.) 13) Was Herbert Birch Kingston actually personal friends with Theda Bara and Ann Pennington, two of the biggest film stars of the day? 14) Why haven't Hallmark and American Greetings come forward with any biographical or historical information about Herbert Birch Kingston? 15) What is the primary source of the Herbert Birch Kingston story? 16) Who appointed the 12 confectioners to be Sweetest Day in the Year Committeemen? 17) What was the role of the National Confectioner's Association (established 1917) in the founding of Sweetest Day? 18) Will Hallmark, American Greetings, and The National Confectioner's Association release all archived primary source information in their possession concerning Herbert Birch Kingston and the origins of Sweetest Day? (this list may be expanded)

Oh, and one last question: How much money do you think Hallmark, American Greetings and the Candy industry as a whole have made off of Sweetest Day since October 8th, 1921?

Ok Sweetest Day history enthusiasts! Get to work!

Miracleimpulse 06:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

...by the way, here is what The Cleveland Plain Dealer had to say about Sweetest Day in 2005:

Idea behind Sweetest Day was to push candy, not love Saturday, October 15, 2005 Bill Lubinger Plain Dealer Reporter

Today will be sprinkled with cards and flowers, dinner dates and sex toys.

Except Sweetest Day wasn't supposed to be a day for lovers, but a day for lovers of sweets.

Dozens of Cleveland's top candy makers concocted the promotion 84 years ago and it stuck, although it never became as widely accepted as hoped.

"Sweetest Day is extremely regional," said Van Billington, spokesman for Retail Confectioners International. "It basically follows a path from Detroit to Buffalo."

The candy men of Cleveland proclaimed an annual "Sweetest Day of the Year" as a touching way to spread happiness -- not just for family and friends, but orphans and newsboys, too.

What better way to give 'em some sugar than with -- big shock -- candy, "because it has an appeal for everybody, rich and poor, old or young."

Chocolatiers delivered thousands of candy boxes to the needy. To the rest, they sold their product with outlandish claims.

In a special four-page Sweetest Day spread in The Cleveland Plain Dealer on Oct. 8, 1921, they pitched the benefits of confectionery delights.

They promoted everything from almond creams to fruit-centered milk chocolates, as if touting seaweed extract and fish oil.

"Scientists Say Man Can Walk Mile on Power Furnished by One Ordinary Caramel," reads one of the headlines. And did you know, the manufacturers fudged, that animals love candy, too. "Furthermore, most authorities agree that it is good for them."

Horses and dogs are especially keen on chocolate-covered varieties, they insisted. (No mention that chocolate can be toxic to a dog - even chocolate Labs.)

Candy makers wisely used the event to dispel popular myths that apparently hurt sales: Glucose doesn't contain glue, they informed readers, and the product isn't made from horses' hooves or coal tar.

Maybe they got one fact right, though.

"We are known as the greatest nation of candy eaters," the masters of marzipan bellowed proudly in print. "It has been said that all the rest of the world combined eats less candy than we do."

How sweet.

News Research Director Patti Graziano and and Deputy News Research Director Mary Ann Cofta contributed to this story.

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:

blubinger@plaind.com, 216-999-5531

Editor's note: Virtually none of this information (except for the 10,000 Cheered By Candy Gifts article) was contained in the October 8th, 1921 issue of The Cleveland Plain Dealer. There was no 4-page Sweetest Day Section in The Cleveland Plain Dealer on October 8th, 1921. Note also that there is zero reference to Herbert Birch Kingston.

Miracleimpulse 06:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

New info on Herbert Birch Kingston this morning: Herbert Birch Kingston was born in Ohio in February of 1882. His father's name was William Kingston (born 1848 in New York). His mother's name was Jenny (born 1851 in Ohio). In 1900 Herbert Birch Kingston lived in St. Paul, Minnesota and attended school. In 1907 he married Bessie M. Nutting (born 1880 in Ohio). In 1910 and 1920, Herbert Birch Kingston's profession is listed as advertising. In 1910, 1920, and 1930 Herbert Birch Kingston lived in Cuyahoga County, Ohio. Herbert and Bessie Kingston had 3 children: Muriel L. Kingston (born 1908 in Minnesota), Lawrence Kingston (born 1918 in Ohio), and Janet Kingston (born 1924 in Ohio). Miracleimpulse 16:09, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• Note to Transfinite: Why did you delete my reference to the first Sweetest Day (10/8/1921) on the 1921 event page? Miracleimpulse 19:46, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• I disliked the POV wording, and this isn't a very significant anniversary. Also note no one has added it back in. You might want to post your concerns on Talk:1921. By the way, what are your sources on Herbert Kingston? --Transfinite 02:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)