Talk:Sybirak

Usage

Rewrote the first paragraph, because that way it implicitly meant that any Sibiryak (=Siberian) has been in a prison. --Ъыь ^(mailbox) 20:37, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

It would apprear we need two articles then, because there is a difference between Sybirak (an exile, prisoner) and Syberianin (native inhabitant). Doesn't such a difference exist in Russian language?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:45, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

In Russian those who are exiled whereeve, are called ssylnyi, soslannyi (ссыльный, сосланный), and there is no special word for those exiled in Siberia. --Ъыь ^(mailbox) 13:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I think we should be concerned with the English usage of the word, not Polish or Russian. --Lysy^talk 22:59, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no English usage, one way or another ([1], [2]), so we are dealing with Polish and possibly Russian usages only.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, apparently there is: [3], and the English usage seems to be the same as Polish, probably a direct language calque. --Lysy^talk 23:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, with 18 hits I would tend to think they are attempts to translate - or use - the word by Poles. Which is not a problem, as we need some word for this phenomena, and Polish one is the most fitting anyway. But that raises the question should this article be about both the exiles and inhabitants, or should we split of the inhabitants under some other name?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  04:43, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd expect the inhabitants of Siberia are Siberians in English ? --Lysy^talk 07:09, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know much about the exiled Poles. If they did something special before or after being exiled, I'd make a separate article. Otherwise, I'd make a single article on the people of Siberia.

BTW, where do those who stayed live in Siberia? I guess, after in the Soviet Union there were many repressions, mixing up and forced movements of people, they may have dissolved among others. But the local Germans have quite preserved their identity, the old believers lived and still live in remote areas. --Ъыь ^(mailbox) 13:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

While this is not (yet) an area I have deeply researched, I feel pretty sure that we can have a long article about Polish exiles to Siberia. I'd suggest having two separate articles.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  14:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure as well. Many of the Sybiraks managed to return to Poland, but they still call themselves this name. As to ссыльный or сосланный this would be "zesłaniec" in Polish, this is different than "Sybirak". I think "Sybirak" is short for "Zesłaniec Syberyjski". Of course many poles were deported to other areas of Soviet Union, but they were not "Sybiraks" then. I think this name stands out because of the 19th century tradition. --Lysy^talk 17:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Can the Google search result be considered as a reliable reference? Honestly I did not manage to find word 'Sybirak' neither in any thick English dictionaries nor in online ones. The Polish-English dictionaries suppose it is the Polish word for English 'Siberian'. Personally I can not see any reason to distrust them. Perhaps it would be better just to rename this article to 'Polish prisoners in Siberia' or so? RamBow 17:44, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

While many Poles where sent to Siberia, it was not only Poles who got sent there - so using the Polish term sybiracy is not the best idea. While the neologism 'Sybiraks' is imperfect, I am not sure what would be the best descriptive name. Siberian prisoners, perhaps?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

You are right - it may be better as a section of more general article. That prominent part of History seems far from fully covered in Wikipedia. I think you can start this article and announce it on Russian history Project page. Or ask them for advice to be sure you choose right name - "Siberian Prisoners" looks good for me personally but English is not my native language so I am not able to judge. RamBow 08:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

"Siberian prisoners" is a meaningless term. They have no difference from Far Eastern prisoners or North Kazakhstan prosoners. `'Míkka 04:55, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Article content

Thinking of it, the article has gradually turned into a mess. It was started as an article about Polish meaning of the word. Indeed, it is a notable concept; AFAIK there is even an association of fomer sybiracy in Poland. There is no distinguished meaning in other cases. Siberia was not the only exile place in Russia and Soviet Union. Russian Far East, Extreme North, Arkhangelsk Oblast, Karelia, Kazakhstan... Many of them much more harsh than Siberia. It is just "Siberia" has become a cliche.

Also, I am not aware of any other cases where the term "Sibiryak" means "exiled in Siberia". The term "dweller of Siberia" (Siberian) in the meaning more than simply demographics of Siberia is yet to be covered.

Therefore I suggest to separate the Polish article and expand it: http://www.sybiracy.pl/, Sybiracy film, Związek Sybiraków, &c, &c

The rest is already present elsewhere in wikipedia, i.e., nothing new. `'Míkka 04:51, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

It should be noted that in common speech the term Sybirak refers to any person forcibly resettled to Russia or Soviet Union, regardless of the destination. Among the members of the Sybirak Union (Związek Sybiraków) there are also people who survived Kazakhstan, Kola Peninsula, camps near Tula, and so on. //Halibutt 10:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

"common speech" - you wanted to say "in Polish common speech". You didn't comment on my suggestion about spinning out the Polish usage because there is no evidence that other languages use the word "sibiriak" in any spelling to mean something that cannot be covered by redirect to Demographics of Siberia. `'Míkka 16:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Sure, that's precisely what I meant. As to splitting this article between new articles on Sybirak ("Polish" meaning of the term) and a redirect, I fully agree. //Halibutt 17:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Name

If this is to refer to a Polish term, the Polish word is sybirak, not sibirak.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 19:38, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry my bad. `'Míkka>t 22:09, 23 November 2007 (UTC)