Talk:Sylvia Young Theatre School
Latest comment: 13 years ago by GFHandel in topic Claire Clare Burt
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Criticism
editThe school has come under some harsh criticism for churning out all-singing all-dancing wannabees with no discernable talent or charisma who then clog up drama schedules on British Television for decades [citation needed] : See graduates below:
I moved the above section here, because it looks to me like someone using weasely passive voice to sound off their own opinions. They might be right but it's not very encyclopaedic.
Gypsum Fantastic 15:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Lists of names
editLists of names in this article should be sourced in accordance with WP:BLP. As there is no way of constantly maintaining linked articles, this applies to names which have a Wikipedia article as well as those that do not. Any name listed with no verifiable citations should be removed. Refer to WP:NLIST for guidance. Fæ (talk) 13:04, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
- This is an unrealistic standard that you know as well as I do will not be met. I would suggest placing a little more trust in human nature. Removing names not currently cited will reduce the quality of the article. Leaving the tag there permanently is pointless, ugly, and disruptive. But you have policy on your side, so I know there is no point in fighting you. Wikipedia's policies are often so dumb, and they make me wonder why I bother to try to help this dysfunctional mess. I am going to stop. Congratulations on using policy against me to drive away a user who has made several thousand useful edits in good faith. You might like to note that the head of Wikimedia recently noted the continuing fall in the rate of editor retention as wikipedia's key problem. But you have policy on your side, so why should you care about that? Wimstead (talk) 13:29, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
- It is hardly unrealistic, there are plenty of good examples where reliable sources have been applied to alumni lists. Plucking one at random that I have never looked at before, try a comparison with List of United States Naval Academy alumni as a featured list that has citations against every entry. The consensus exists for good reason, articles linked to change over time, including citations being removed, and there is no record of anyone checking each addition to this long list of names to confirm if claims that they are alumni are backed with reliable sources in every case. I'm afraid that threatening to retire is not a convincing rationale to ignore basic verifiability policy but I am happy to continue discussing alternatives for this article should you or anyone else wish to propose any. Fæ (talk) 14:47, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
- I've only a passing interest in this article (having tidied the Laura Evans page—which led here), but I'd have to agree. I'm an inclusionist by nature, but those tendencies don't extend to inferring information about people (especially living people). I found some sort of reference that supported the attendance of Laura Evans at the school, but as far as I can tell, she's the only one now sustainable in the list. Would someone please tell us what the reference <ref name="PTS">From part-time schools.</ref> means? I'll also add that an open list like this one attracts people who can in no way support their name in the list (see the recent article history). GFHandel ♬ 03:27, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
- I am inclined to agree with GFH and Fae here. However there is no hurry to trim the list and I am sure they can mostly be verified. I will see what I can do. --John (talk) 05:00, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry John, I didn't request that you should take on the task of trying to verify so many names. Could I suggest that we create a new section (under "Alumni") called something like "Alumni (unverified)"? We can then move every name that doesn't have a valid reference there (and I believe that at the moment that means that only one name would remain in the "Alumni" section). It would then be up to whoever feels motivated enough to save the names in the "Alumni (unverified)" section from inevitable removal. I realise that the proposed section is not so "encyclopaedic", but perhaps that's the only (temporary) way to both warn the readers and motivate the local editors? GFHandel ♬ 05:09, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- That's sort of what the {{Alumni}} notice does. If it needs a long time to chisel away at citations, I recommend the unsourced entries are moved to this talk page for discussion (though even if deleted, we can always simply point to the relevant diff to help find them all again). This discussion has run for several months already without any tangible improvement, I suggest a deadline for trimming the list of September 2011 (6 months after flagging the issue) at which point, if nobody else has sorted it out, I'll move the uncited to this page. Fæ (talk) 05:17, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- At this page (on the school's own web site) 43 ex-students (from "full time school") and 7 ex-students (from "part-time schools") are mentioned, however that still means that a lot of names will be removed from the WP article in September. To the local editors, now is the time to start finding references for the rest. GFHandel ♬ 05:53, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- That's sort of what the {{Alumni}} notice does. If it needs a long time to chisel away at citations, I recommend the unsourced entries are moved to this talk page for discussion (though even if deleted, we can always simply point to the relevant diff to help find them all again). This discussion has run for several months already without any tangible improvement, I suggest a deadline for trimming the list of September 2011 (6 months after flagging the issue) at which point, if nobody else has sorted it out, I'll move the uncited to this page. Fæ (talk) 05:17, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry John, I didn't request that you should take on the task of trying to verify so many names. Could I suggest that we create a new section (under "Alumni") called something like "Alumni (unverified)"? We can then move every name that doesn't have a valid reference there (and I believe that at the moment that means that only one name would remain in the "Alumni" section). It would then be up to whoever feels motivated enough to save the names in the "Alumni (unverified)" section from inevitable removal. I realise that the proposed section is not so "encyclopaedic", but perhaps that's the only (temporary) way to both warn the readers and motivate the local editors? GFHandel ♬ 05:09, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- I am inclined to agree with GFH and Fae here. However there is no hurry to trim the list and I am sure they can mostly be verified. I will see what I can do. --John (talk) 05:00, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Edit request from Angieberners, 16 August 2011
edit | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Angieberners (talk) 15:26, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- You need to make a specific request when using this template. If you have one, change "answered=yes" to "answered=no" in the template to reopen the request. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 17:05, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
Claire Clare Burt
edit
This person is listed at http://www.sylviayoungtheatreschool.co.uk/page_viewer.asp?page=Ex-Students+&pid=102 but why this list is constructed at the school website or how names are chosen is not explained. There is no indication that names listed as people who have attended the school might be notable, only that they went to the school. As Claire Burt has no other source given or any clear means of disambiguation if there is another Claire Burt, then I propose this name is removed, again. Fæ (talk) 00:21, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
- First, let me say that this is no biggie, but I do feel there are other issues that need to be considered. Clare Burt (not "Claire") is listed as an ex-student of the school, and I think we can only assume that the school has taken the trouble to list the most note-worthy students on their ex-students page. Clare Burt also has an IMDB page. I don't believe it is right to omit one name from the school's site, so I propose that we make a red-link for Clare Burt on this page and wait awhile to see if that prompts other editors to create a WP page. If nothing is forthcoming, I'm sure I could construct a stub to get the ball rolling. Sound reasonable? GFHandel ♬ 00:58, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
- Please do construct a stub, though I am puzzled as to how you know that the Clare Burt on IMDB is the Clare Burt listed on the school website as there is no context given apart from the name. I would argue against linking to a purpose built stub unless you can find some evidence that the IMDB Clare Burt went to SYT. Fæ (talk) 08:28, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, you are right. I will do my best to confirm it with references. Thanks. GFHandel ♬ 08:37, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
- As it is coming up to a month, I propose this "Clare Burt" is removed due a lack of evidence one way or the other. Fæ (talk) 15:06, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Clare Burt is now referenced on the school's ex-student's web site. I'll create the page in the next day or so. GFHandel ♬ 06:53, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
- It has been unsourced for over a month. There seems little damage in removing the name until sources are found to demonstrate notability. For the time being not a single source has been put forward that has any detail and in particular a source that can distinguish the person that went to this school from any other Clare Burt. --Fæ (talk) 08:08, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
- Do you mean all those other English actresses named Clare Burt (who are married to Larry Lamb
and have a daughter named Vanessa Clare Lamb)? Anyhow, I've created an article for Clare Burt, so slap on the "notability" and "citation required" templates and we'll see what transpires. I've done my best for today. GFHandel ♬ 08:23, 29 September 2011 (UTC)- (Although, based on the date-of-birth of Vanessa, it looks like "Clare" is one big coincidence—so struck above text.) GFHandel ♬ 08:39, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
- Do you mean all those other English actresses named Clare Burt (who are married to Larry Lamb
- It has been unsourced for over a month. There seems little damage in removing the name until sources are found to demonstrate notability. For the time being not a single source has been put forward that has any detail and in particular a source that can distinguish the person that went to this school from any other Clare Burt. --Fæ (talk) 08:08, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
- Clare Burt is now referenced on the school's ex-student's web site. I'll create the page in the next day or so. GFHandel ♬ 06:53, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
- As it is coming up to a month, I propose this "Clare Burt" is removed due a lack of evidence one way or the other. Fæ (talk) 15:06, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, you are right. I will do my best to confirm it with references. Thanks. GFHandel ♬ 08:37, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
- Please do construct a stub, though I am puzzled as to how you know that the Clare Burt on IMDB is the Clare Burt listed on the school website as there is no context given apart from the name. I would argue against linking to a purpose built stub unless you can find some evidence that the IMDB Clare Burt went to SYT. Fæ (talk) 08:28, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Ex-students removed from article
editIn September 2011 the following students were removed from the article due to a lack of a supporting reference:
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If you can find a supporting reference, or if any of the above are added to the school's ex-student's web site, then feel free to add them to the article.
GFHandel ♬ 20:36, 21 September 2011 (UTC)