Talk:Symeon the New Theologian/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Ealdgyth - Talk 14:24, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I'll be reveiwing this article shortly. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:24, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   just a few rough spots in the prose

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   The images need better sourcing to show that they are public domain.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Specific concerns:

• File:SYMEON-icon.jpg. The source link given does not indicate that the image is over 100 years old. For the claim of Public Domain, we need a source that states that the image was produced and published prior to 1923.
• Likewise for File:Symeon the New Theologian2.jpg.
• Likewise for File:Simeon Novi Bogoslov.jpg - it's source is a geocities site that no longer exists.
• And likewise for File:Symeon New Theologian.jpg.
  • I'll start looking for valid images and/or sourcing, since none of these seem to be sourced sufficiently - it would be a shame to have an article like this without images.
    • ? A fairly extensive online search hasn't turned up any public domain images, unfortunately.
      • Perhaps File:One of the exterior facades of the St. John Stoudios (Imrahor) Monastery.jpg would work? Or do we have images of any medieval manuscripts of his work? Or that mention him? I've used all three approaches ... place where the subject was, manuscript of the subject's works, manuscript about the subject... to good effect on other medieval people articles. (See Wilfrid, Gilbert Foliot, and John Peckham for examples). Ealdgyth - Talk 14:40, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
        • I've added the facade image, along with File:Studion.jpg to the article. The latter would be a nice image for the infobox, if only it had more of a direct connection to the subject of the article, in my opinion. I also had the idea earlier of looking for old manuscript photos, and the only one I could find was a 1905 Russian Philokalia: File:Philokalia in russian 1905.jpg, which wasn't quite close enough in my opinion. If you think otherwise, I would be fine with that image going in the article. St. Mamas monastery was probably gone long ago, based on what happened to the Monastery of Stoudios—now mostly a ruin, with the former church becoming Imrahor Mosque.[1] Otherwise I'm stumped. I think that Symeon is not one of the more well-known saints from that time, except among people with a more mystical bent. There only seems to be one monastery in all of Christendom dedicated to him, with all of twelve monks.[2] First Light (talk) 02:16, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
• The see also section repeats links that are given in the article text. Per WP:SEEALSO, links in the body should generally not be in the see also section too.
  • Y Fixed.
• Lead: Surely we have an article on Symeon the Studite!
  • Y There wasn't, but there is now at Symeon the Studite.
• Weren't there more than one monastery in Constantinople? If so… ""a renowned monk of the monastery of Constantinople" sounds very odd. I note that in the body of the article, you give the monastery, so it might be best to say "a renowned monk from one of the monasteries of Constantinople"
  • Y Odd indeed, and somehow overlooked. It names the monastery now and reads "...the Monastery of Stoudios in Constantinople".
• No article on the monastery he was abbot of?
  • ? There seems to be very little information available about St. Mamas. It doesn't appear to exist any more - there is a monastery by the same name on the island of Cyprus, but not much about this St. Mamas monastery.
• Do we have an article on "grace of God" that would be good to link to in the lead?
  • Y I've linked to divine grace.
• Likewise an article on "hesychast teachings"?
  • Y Now linked to hesychasm.
• Abbot: This sentence "Symeon continued to write throughout his remaining time as abbot, including his Hymns of Divine Love (completed in his exile), his Discourses, and many letters and works which have been lost." seems out of place in the section its in. We haven't mentioned any writings before this, and suddenly it's "continued to write" which doesn't fit here. Perhaps move this sentence to the section on his writings? Or add some about when he started writing and what about?
  • Y Indeed, that was poorly written. I've changed it to "During his time as abbot, Symeon wrote Hymns of Divine Love (completed during his exile), the Discourses, and many letters and polemical works which have been lost. He also wrote articles relating to his disputes with the church theologians—these survived as his theological and ethical treatises."
• Opposition: Do we have something to link to for "scholastic theological learning"? Otherwise most readers are going to be totally lost. I myself am not sure what is intended here, as "scholastic" has a different implication in western theology.
  • ? I've edited that to read "... with a reputation for a thorough theoretical understanding of theology, but one which was removed from actual experience of the spiritual life." The source describes Stephen's as a "learned scholastic theology removed from the spiritual life." I hope that makes it more clear.
• Exile: Do we have some article to link to to explain "spiritual children" for readers who aren't well versed in ecclesiastical history?
  • ? That's a bit tricky. I've linked "spiritual children" to starets, which describes the role of the Spiritual Father, since "spiritual children" is only in the context of that relationship to their Spiritual Father. I think that will do fine. Oddly, Spiritual Father redirects to starets, while Spiritual father redirects to Confessor, so I've used pipes to make sure the link stays correct over time.
• Looks pretty good to me, just a few spots as mentioned above and the pretty serious issue with the images that need fixing.
• I've put the article on hold for seven days to allow folks to address the issues I've brought up. Feel free to contact me on my talk page, or here with any concerns, and let me know one of those places when the issues have been addressed. If I may suggest that you strike out, check mark, or otherwise mark the items I've detailed, that will make it possible for me to see what's been addressed, and you can keep track of what's been done and what still needs to be worked on. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:30, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Everything else looks good. Just awaiting your decision on the picture suggestion above. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)