Talk:Szmul Zygielbojm

self-immolation

I am virtually certain that Zygielbojm self-immolated himself, and added this pertinent information to the article. Please do not remove this information without an explanation. Dr. Dan 15:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I've never heard about Zygielbojm's self-immolation and, to be honest, it seems anachronistic. (Was self-immolation known in the West in 1943?) Every source I've consulted says that he turned on the gas in his flat. For example, from the third external link in the article:

On 12 May 1943, he committed suicide in London by turning on the gas in his apartment.

Or his obituary, on this site. (Granted, it doesn't mention gas, but I would imagine that (a) one who self-immolates wouldn't be found "almost unconscious" and rushed to the hospital and (b) such an unusual method of suicide would have been considered news-worthy.) Do any sources indicate that Zygielbojm's suicide was by self-immolation? Malik Shabazz 19:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe there's some confusion; immolation is usually used for sacrivice by burning, but can be used for sacrifice in general. http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/immolation Gzuckier 19:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, but the Wiki article to which Dr. Dan linked seems very specific about killing oneself by fire. In any event, unless it can be shown that Zygielbojm's suicide was by fire, why confuse the matter? Malik Shabazz 23:54, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the reference to self-immolation until Dr. Dan or somebody else can find something that indicates Zygielbojm's suicide was by other means that gassing himself. Malik Shabazz 01:24, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I will go to a library this weekend and see what the sources Timothy Snyder cites say about Zygielbojm's method of suicide. However the inquest carried out after his death found that it "was caused by a self-administered dose of a sedative"[1] and the contemporary NYT article on his death refers to him being "found dead in his Paddington flat"[2] so I can't really see how Snyder could be correct. Norman Naimark kind of alludes to this in his review of the book.[3]Pwrm (talk) 04:46, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Incidentally Snyder's sources for this statement are:

• Gutman, "Resistance: The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising". p 247.
• Friedlander, "The Years of Extermination". p 598.
• Marrus. "Jewish Resistance to the Holocaust". p 98.

Pwrm (talk) 04:49, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

His suicide

Here it is said: "The well-known Bundist activist Shmuel Mordechai Zigelboim committed suicide on May 1, 1943, on the threshold of the British Parliament building in London." [4]

Austerlitz -- 88.72.3.203 19:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

It is probably a misunderstanding. There is no question that Zygielbojm died in his London apartment. Here's a copy of his obituary.

The source is a "Yizkor book", a volume published by survivors of the Holocaust, based on their memories. Typically such a book was published by landsmanshaftn, a group of people who lived in a particular town, in this case by the "Association of Former Residents of Rokitno and its Vicinity in Israel".

They may have heard or read of the message from Leon Feiner in the Warsaw Ghetto to Zygielbojm and other Jewish leaders: "Tell them to go to all the important English and American offices and agencies. Tell them not to leave until they obtain guarantees that a way has been decided upon to save the Jews. Let them accept no food or drink, let them die a slow death while the world is looking on. Let them die. This may shake the conscience of the world." Perhaps somebody interpreted Zygielbojm's suicide as a literal fulfillment of Feiner's request, thinking that he died at one of "the important English and American offices and agencies".

I wish my Ivrit were better so I could understand the rest of the BBS page. :-( — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 19:15, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Read comment bewlow ths article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2928325/Szmul-Zygielbojm-exposed-holocaust-world-killed-wife-son-murdered-Warsaw-Ghetto-uprising.html

mamaz, withheld, United States, 3 years ago

Zygielbojm's great granddaughter here. On behalf of our family, thank you for running this article today. One correction to headline and article however, Szmul Zygielbojm did not kill himself after wife and son were killed in the uprising. Szmul had one son, my grandpa Joseph, who was in his early 20s at this time. It was Joseph's wife and toddler son who were murdered. Joseph then fled to the woods to lead a partisan militia battling Nazis. Joseph met my grandmother, a camp survivor, after the war. Szmul did have one other child, my grandpa Joe's pre-teenaged sister Rivka. Rivka was taken to the camps where she perished. Details about Szmul's , my great grandmother are unknown, it is assumed she perished in the camps. My great grandfather Szmul killed himself because he felt he had failed his people. In any case, very very sad story. Heavy heart today. But uplifted by your running of the story. Thanks again! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:B40:2258:C9F8:6CCB:FD97:DAB3 (talk) 17:03, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately, due to Wikipedia policy, we cannot accept online comments as a source. Catrìona (talk) 17:45, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Late comment, but the origin of this is probably that before his death he had called on British Jews to commit mass suicide on the steps of number 10 Downing Street to draw attention to what was happening. In the end he died in his apartment, but it was an idea he'd clearly considered. I haven't seen the original publication, but it was referred to in newspapers of the time. Example: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/261395462?searchTerm=warsaw 2407:7000:899A:CD00:AD34:4129:EE21:E82B (talk) 09:33, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Religion

Currently the infobox states he confessed Judaism. However, he was as leftist as a Bundist can be, which makes me ask if there's any proof he was indeed Jewish by faith. //Halibutt 21:26, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

When I edited the infobox, I tried to avoid the question by saying Zygielbojm's religion was Jewish instead of Judaism.

This is a tough issue. There is no question that Zygielbojm was Jewish and that the Jewish people were his highest concern. He seems to have come from a religious background, but his religious instruction (kheder) ended when he was 10. I haven't read anything that suggests he observed Jewish law.

I think most secular Jews (a category that presumably includes Zygielbojm) consider being Jewish an ethnicity. But the choices in the infobox are "nationality" or "religion".

I think I'll ask the editors at Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism for their thoughts. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 23:04, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

That's precisely my concern. Back then roughly 75% of Jewish children in Poland started their education in Jewish schools, usually ran by religious communities. However, it does not mean that all of them were religious people. Anyway, for the time being I removed the {{dubious}} tag and changed "religion=" parameter to "nationality=". Let's see what the guys at WP:Judaism say. //Halibutt 12:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Comrades

"A few dozen copies of a report on the Chelmno murders were circulated throughout the ghetto. This report was also sent abroad, together with a demand to take retaliatory measures against the German civilian population. But public opinion abroad did not believe the story either. Our appeal found no response. Comrade Zygielbojm, our representative in the Polish National Council in London, broadcast the literal text of our message in a radio speech to the whole world. The following morning his appeal was circulated in the ghetto both in a special edition of our publication Der Weker and in the papers of all other political groups."

Marek Edelman ,who died yesterday, and Szmul Zygelbojm belonged to the same organisation, they knew each other. See *Marek Edelman, Resisting the Holocaust: Fighting Back in the Warsaw Ghetto, Ocean Press, 2004, ISBN 1-876175-52-4., (Excerpt online)

--88.75.222.56 (talk) 10:40, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

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What is Szmul Mordekhai Zygielbojm," Aktion Reinhard Camps.?

Xx236 (talk) 11:17, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Booklet Excerpt

Surely you can find an excerpt from this booklet that better follows the narrative thrust of the previous paragraphs, and focuses on the murder of the Jews prompting Zygielboim's activism, than a paragraph that mainly revolves around the deeds of Polish gentiles? Its placement here comes off as promotional. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ereb0r (talk • contribs) 22:36, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Additions- name variations and reference

Another variation of his name is Samuel (or Shmul) Mordechai Arthur Zigelbaum which could be added to the title as when searched for he can be difficult to find information about. He is also referenced by the Soviet war correspondent Vasily Grossman who refers to him as 'Comrade Arthur' in his writing about the Warsaw Uprising. Si noah (talk) 09:54, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 August 2022

Szmul Zygielbojm died by suicide. (He did not "commit" suicide as it is not a crime. Please refrain from using these stigmatising language.) Thank you 105.229.81.83 (talk) 17:00, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

• 🛠☑️ - Thank you - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:42, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  I don't think this change was the right decision. Consuming a lethal dose of sodium amytal was an action intentionally undertaken by Zygielbojm to send a message of protest at the inaction of the West, and the passive language "died by suicide" doesn't appropriately convey the intentionality of this choice. While I understand why "died by suicide" would generally be preferred, in this particular case where the suicide was an act of protest, I think more direct language is better. Granted, "committed suicide" is not the only direct way to say this; I think perhaps "consumed a lethal dose of sodium amytal" or "killed himself" would both be fine.

  Also, suicide was a crime in the United Kingdom in 1943 (it was a crime under the English common law and wasn't decriminalized until 1961) (see Suicide Act 1961). DylPickle666 (talk) 08:17, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

  @DylPickle666 - I reverted my change. Awaiting additional input. - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:55, 12 August 2022 (UTC)