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Talk:T-90

Latest comment: 20 days ago by GrosTaga in topic Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2024
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Large-scale deletion

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Latest comment: 10 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The following large and apparently well-sourced passage was deleted a month or so ago with an edit summary claiming it is all "pro-Ukraine propaganda", and it has not yet been reverted. Editors might want to review the deleted material to see if some or all of it should be reinstated, as I can't see a problem:

Russian forces attempted to counter these top-attack missiles by adding improvised steel grilles—sometimes referred to as "cope cages"[1] due to skepticism from military analysts over their effectiveness—to the top of the turret.[2][3][4][5][6][7] This improvised armour adds weight to the tank, increases its visual profile, and makes it more difficult for the crew to escape from the tank.[8] Analysts have speculated that they may be potentially used as a countermeasure against RPG-7s fired from above during urban combat, loitering munitions, or against drone attacks, as a response to lessons learned from the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war.[9][10] The lack of uniformity of the makeshift cages made from different meshes and iron fences suggest that they are largely improvised by the tank crews, and are not standard issue.[11]

On May 4, 2022 in Kharkiv Oblast, Ukraine, a T-90M Proryv-3 was destroyed in action, the first confirmed destroyed in the war.[12][13] The tank, which appeared near Kharkiv on April 25, was destroyed by soldiers of the 127th Territorial Defence Brigade[14][15] using a Carl Gustaf recoilless rifle. On September 18 in Kharkiv Oblast, Ukraine, a T-90M was captured - the first confirmed in the war.[16][17] As of December 4, a second T-90M had been captured by the Ukrainian Army.[18] As of the May 3 2023, at least seven T-90S export variant had been lost whilst in Russian service.[19]

The captured tank was investigated by Ukrainian tank designers who described it as "not different from T-72B", with the primary difference being fire control system largely built on parts imported in bypass of Western sanctions.[20]

  1. ^ "What to know about the role Javelin antitank missiles could play in Ukraine's fight against Russia". Washington Post. March 12, 2022. Archived from the original on March 12, 2022. Retrieved March 12, 2022. Social media has been littered with photos of destroyed Russian tanks with cages. The images have acquired a symbolic resonance so quickly that Internet users have coined the term "cope cage", earning a page on the Internet's primary meme directory.
  2. ^ Roblin, Sebastien (2021-11-29). "Russian Tanks Massing Near Ukraine Sport Mods Against Drones, Javelin Missiles". Forbes. Archived from the original on 2022-03-11.
  3. ^ Newdick, Thomas (2021-11-24). "Russian T-80 Tank With Improvised Anti-Drone Armor Reportedly Appears In Crimea". The Drive. Archived from the original on 24 February 2022.
  4. ^ "Russian tanks in Ukraine are sprouting cages". The Economist. March 14, 2022. Archived from the original on March 16, 2022. They have indeed been mockingly dubbed by Western analysts as "emotional support armour" or "cope cages". Superficially, they are an example of what is known in military circles as field-expedient armour—in other words, stuff that has been added to vehicles after they have entered service.
  5. ^ "Igazi tankszörnyet zsákmányoltak az ukránok". Portfolio.hu (in Hungarian). March 2, 2022. Archived from the original on March 15, 2022. Retrieved March 8, 2022. (From Hungarian) the improvised armour on the tower, referred to as ... "cope cage" ... to protect the combat vehicles from drone missiles or armor-piercing rockets coming from above.
  6. ^ James Dwyer (March 10, 2022). "How do anti-tank missiles work, and how helpful might they be for Ukraine's soldiers?". Australian Broadcasting Corporation. Archived from the original on March 15, 2022. These are colloquially termed "cope cages" by various communities on the internet. Of course, they will do little to minimise the impact from a missile, but they do demonstrate that Russian soldiers are fearful of the threat the missiles present.
  7. ^ "Speech by Defence Secretary on Russia's invasion of Ukraine". gov.uk. 9 May 2022. Archived from the original on May 9, 2022. Retrieved 2022-05-09. Russian soldiers' futile use of pine logs as makeshift protection on logistical trucks and attaching overhead 'cope cages' to their tanks, it's nothing short of tragic. But their commanders' failures to adapt before entering them into such a conflict is criminal.
  8. ^ Alia Shoaib (March 26, 2022). "Russian soldiers appear to be fixing makeshift cages to the turrets of their tanks in a crude effort to protect themselves against Ukraine's anti-tank missiles". Business Insider. Archived from the original on March 26, 2022. Retrieved March 27, 2022. "The advantage Russian tanks have is that they're super small and very low, making them easy to hide. When you start doubling the height, you're getting rid of some of the advantages of the vehicle", Crump said. The cages also make it harder for the crew to get in and out of the vehicles, according to Crump.
  9. ^ "Russian tanks in Ukraine are sprouting cages". The Economist. March 14, 2022. Archived from the original on March 16, 2022. Another idea is that the cages are a response to the conflict in 2020 between Armenia and Azerbaijan, over Nagorno-Karabakh, in which large numbers of Russian-made Armenian tanks were destroyed from above by MAM-Ls ... A third possibility is that the cages are meant as protection against RPGs ... which are being fired at tanks from above. This ... is a preferred tactic in urban warfare, where buildings offer shooters the necessary elevation.
  10. ^ "Les "cope cages", protections bricolées et moquées des chars russes impuissants". Slate.fr (in French). March 23, 2022. Archived from the original on March 23, 2022. Retrieved March 27, 2022. Ces structures approximatives sont ce qu'il est devenu coutumier d'appeler des cope cages en anglais ... Elles sont le résultat des observations par l'armée russe du conflit opposant Azerbaïdjan et Arménie dans le Haut-Karabakh. [It has become customary to call these makeshift structures "cope cages" in English... They are the result of observations made by the Russian army towards the conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia in Nagorno-Karabakh.]
  11. ^ Alia Shoaib (March 26, 2022). "Russian soldiers appear to be fixing makeshift cages to the turrets of their tanks in a crude effort to protect themselves against Ukraine's anti-tank missiles". Business Insider. Archived from the original on March 26, 2022. Retrieved March 27, 2022. The lack of uniformity of the cages, and the fact that they are only seen on some tanks, shows that Russian units are largely improvising them
  12. ^ Rogoway, Joseph Trevithick, Oliver Parken, Tyler (2022-05-04). "Russia Just Lost Its Most Advanced Operational Tank In Ukraine". The Drive. Retrieved 2022-05-05.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  13. ^ Cole, Brendan (2022-05-05). "Russia's best tank destroyed just days after rolling into Ukraine—report". Newsweek. Retrieved 2022-05-05.
  14. ^ "З'явилося відео знищення найсучаснішого танка ЗС РФ Т-90М "Прорив"". Focus (in Ukrainian). 2022-05-10. Retrieved 2022-05-12.
  15. ^ "Tank Deathmatch: Russia's T-90M Vs. Carl Gustav Rocket Launcher (Who Wins?)". 12 May 2022.
  16. ^ "Ukraine's Armed Forces captured the latest Russian Т-90М "Proryv" tank in Kharkiv Region".
  17. ^ "Russian T-90A Are Already Used by the Ukrainian Armed Forces". en.defence-ua.com.
  18. ^ "The Ukrainian military captured the Russian T-90M 'Proryv' tank".
  19. ^ Roscoe, Matthew (2023-01-05). "WATCH: Russian T-90S export tank destroyed in Ukraine". euroweeklynews.com. Retrieved 2023-01-07.
  20. ^ "Рік роботи Центру досліджень трофейного та перспективного ОВТ: ринок ОПК росії збіднів на мільярди доларів". armyinform.com.ua (in Ukrainian). Retrieved 2023-05-15.

BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:10, 25 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Why hasn't this been actioned? ForWikiCont (talk) 13:33, 16 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Edits reverts

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Latest comment: 10 months ago6 comments4 people in discussion

I just wrote what is contained in the sources. I just updated the page's content (which is relied on a source from 2022 while the situation has obviously changed) using only reliable Western sources. XANTHO GENOS 5.5.2024 (talk) 12:02, 25 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

The part that was actually about the T-90 has been restored to include what the source says about it. TylerBurden (talk) 20:09, 25 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
When I saw this video I regretted it instantly. The only thing I could think about was people being killed. If this was intentional destruction by the operator please correct the caption. If it is not, please remove this video as I consider this graphic content. 2601:155:8403:EDD0:AC09:ADED:C5F8:4446 (talk) 10:27, 8 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
See WP:NOTCENSORED. TylerBurden (talk) 20:20, 8 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
I have many videos of US personnel getting killed by IED, RPG and snipers in Iraq.
Is that also allowed to be posted in the articles for Courag (MRAP), RPG-7 and SVD Dragunov? 37.162.243.147 (talk) 19:47, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
I have no idea why you are bringing that up here, since it has nothing to do with this article. TylerBurden (talk) 20:54, 22 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Renamed T-72

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Latest comment: 20 days ago3 comments3 people in discussion

The article doesnt really explain T-90 was the T-72BU re-labelled, to remove this latest variant from the taint of the T-72s poor survivability in combat. It was originally to be renamed the T-88 (contraction of the internal design program); the designation T-90 was eventually adotped to imply it was the first 'new' tank design of the nineties. source: Zaloga: "T-90 Standard Tank" LoatesyJnr (talk) 13:02, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

T-72BU is actually another parallel development of the T-72 which used a completely different gun. 37.162.243.147 (talk) 19:45, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
The T-72BU doesn’t exist, it’s a made-up name based on the english translation of « Усовершенствованный танк Т-72Б » Upgraded T-72B.
The name T-90 is a reference to the manual of the Object 188TO-1, made in 1990. GrosTaga (talk) 17:11, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Seeking sources for variant article

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Latest comment: 5 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Draft:Turtle Tank Destroyer (T-72/T-90 Variant) 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:4122:2B26:8AD8:6B73 (talk) 16:03, 13 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Spinning Turret Syndrome

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Latest comment: 5 months ago3 comments3 people in discussion

This should be in the article somewhere: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2024/05/24/spinning-turret-syndrome-the-disastrous-bug-in-russias-most-modern-tank/?sh=4f4b9ee21ec0 Victor Grigas (talk) 11:44, 25 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

The suggestion to turn T-90s into turtle tanks to stop the turret from spinning seems deeply unserious. Schierbecker (talk) 20:03, 25 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
The article is under a "Senior Contributor", so that article's generally unreliable according to the reliable source list BarakHussan (talk) 16:01, 29 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2024

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Latest comment: 20 days ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Change of paragraph:

The T-90M features the 'Kaktus K-6' bolted explosive reactive armour (ERA) package on its frontal hull and turret-top (the T-90S has 'Kontakt-5' ERA), is fitted with an enhanced environmental control system supplied by Israel's Kinetics Ltd for providing cooled air to the fighting compartment, has additional internal volume for housing the cryogenic cooling systems for new-generation thermal imagers like the THALES-built Catherine-FC thermal imager (operating in the 8–12 micrometre bandwidth). In all, India plans to have 2,080 T-90 tanks in service by 2020.[citation needed]

In the sense of the first sentence. "Kaktus K-6" is a fictitious protection system, with the T-90M using 4S23 Relikt instead of the 4S24 Kaktus explosive reactive armor. The only relevance to Kaktus is its soft-protection, also known as "bags" or "boxes" that are additional armor upgrades for the sides of the hull and turret, and that is only in the fact that it applies 4S24U.

No vehicle uses Kaktus. It was originally a prototype called Karkas-1 (4S24) in the 1990s, where it was found to be largely ineffective compared to the competitor in the market, being Relikt (4S23). It was only then applied to more lightly armored applications, as well as lightweight packages. This includes Karkas-2 (4S24U used on BMP-3M, T-90M, T-72B3, T-72BM2, and T-80BVM[-1]) in its soft form, typically called Relikt due to its design. The only change between 4S23 and 4S24U Relikt packages is its explosive insert, in which Kaktus would technically be the correct plastic explosive.

IN SHORT The T-90M features the 'Kaktus K-6' bolted explosive reactive armour (ERA) package on its frontal hull and turret-top -> The T-90M features the 'Relikt' explosive reactive armour (ERA) package on its frontal hull and turret-top TheArcticFoxxo (talk) 23:34, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. TylerBurden (talk) 09:17, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
It’s « Relikt » not « Kaktus » GrosTaga (talk) 17:15, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
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