Talk:TIM San Marino

Requested move 10 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Participants agreed that both names were in use, but were unable to come to an agreement about which title was the WP:COMMONNAME. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:26, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

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TIM San Marino → Telecom Italia San Marino – The company is still called Telecom Italia San Marino, while TIM San Marino is only the name of the brand under which it operates/is known. Epicamused (talk) 09:21, 10 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 19:40, 17 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 20:29, 24 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 18:32, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject European Microstates has been notified of this discussion. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 20:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Telecommunications has been notified of this discussion. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 20:29, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

support per WP:REF. 158.148.153.87 (talk) 07:43, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. "TIM San Marino is only the name of the brand under which it operates/is known" sounds to me like a pretty clear argument that the current title is the WP:COMMONNAME. Article titles are not generally meant to be whatever is the WP:OFFICIALNAME. SilverLocust (talk) 04:01, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

@SilverLocust: However, the page was previously moved without WP:CONS, which left no room for discussion regarding the title. The title of the page must in any case be consistent with that of the company (since the page speaks of the company and not of the brand). Take for example other companies in the sector such as Wind Tre, the title of the page is in fact the name of the company, otherwise it should be WINDTRE (brand with which it operates). But going back to Telecom Italia San Marino/TIM San Marino problem, on the Web there are more pages that mention it by its official name (by which it is best known, given that it is the most important San Marino telephone company) rather than those they mention it with the name of the brand. Epicamused (talk) 07:35, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

@Epicamused: WINDTRE versus Wind Tre seems to just be a stylization, not really a different name. Is there any portion of Telecom Italia San Marino that doesn't use the brand name TIM San Marino? (I believe that's the main reason we would go with the official name of a company rather than whatever is most common.) Because TIM Group (Gruppo TIM) is also not the official name of the parent company, but rather what it is branded/commonly called. That being said, if Telecom Italia San Marino really is more common, then that would be fine. SilverLocust (talk) 07:05, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

@SilverLocust: The question of the TIM Group is different, because the company operates under the TIM brand through the Telecom Italia Mobile branch.

If, on the other hand, we put it on the level that the title of the item should be the best known, then Meta Platforms should also be called just Meta, or Iliad Italia should only be named Iliad, or perhaps Iliad (Italian telecommunications company) since there already exists a company with the same name, i.e. the parent company Iliad.

Furthermore, the reason why it should be moved to Telecom Italia San Marino is because over time the company, in parallel with the parent company, also operated under the Alice brand (now discontinued) before adopting the single TIM brand (as also happened in Italy). Another reason why it should be called Telecom Italia San Marino is that which concerns its history: it is the most important San Marino telecommunications company, which has been involved, since its origins as Intelcom, in the cabling of the fiber network and the mobile. Epicamused (talk) 15:18, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

@Epicamused:

• TIM Group isn't relevantly different. If we were going by the official name rather than the common branding, it would be Telecom Italia (or Telecom Italia S.p.A.) [Edit: TIM S.p.A (06:50, 6 July 2023 (UTC))].
• Meta Platforms has that title to disambiguate the prefix Meta and other uses of Meta (disambiguation).
• Iliad Italia has that name to distinguish it from the international parent Iliad SA (which was previously Iliad (company)) and the primary topic Iliad (the epic).
• Unless the company doesn't use the TIM brand for the fiber business as well, that shouldn't make a difference to the common name (even though the M stands for mobile).
• Also, I have noticed that the company really does use the name "TIM San Marino S.p.A." as a company name according the the bottom of the telecomitalia.sm website. Not sure how I missed that earlier looking at the website. The name is registered as a trade name. (Edit: This undermines the argument that the page speaks of the company and not of the brand.)

Having said that, I am therefore firmly opposed based on the limited evidence presented and the discussion above. SilverLocust (talk) 23:10, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

@SilverLocust I think you need some updates on Telecom Italia. The company is no longer called Telecom Italia S.p.A. (Telecom Italia Group), but TIM S.p.A. (TIM Group), and since 2016 TIM has been used as a single brand for both mobile and landline telephony, after discontinuing the Telecom and Alice brands.

In any case, if you look in the legal notes of the site (and in the documents of the general contract conditions), it says Telecom Italia San Marino S.p.A., probably the wording at the bottom of the page TIM San Marino S.p.A. it is not updated or perhaps it is just an abbreviation (otherwise it is not explained why the other name is indicated in the legal notes and in the contract conditions). Also on Google Play and on the App Store it says Telecom Italia San Marino S.p.A., and the same site domain has been kept www.telecomitalia.sm rather than transferring it to www.tim.sm (domain also registered by TISM S.p.A. and which it sends back to www.telecomitalia.sm). Epicamused (talk) 06:16, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

@Epicamused: Sorry, I should have said that "TIM Group" ("Gruppo TIM") is also the branding rather than the official company name TIM S.p.A. That was careless mistake by me. As to "TIM San Marino S.p.A.", it has been on the website since the summer of 2017 rebranding (Archive.org). And as I indicated, both company names are listed on the corporate records as shown online. {{replyto|SilverLocust}} (talk) 06:46, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

@SilverLocust: Yes, but the website has recently been renewed, so why did they include Telecom Italia San Marino S.p.A.? As you can see, the PDF of the legal notices is updated to 2022, so the most recent and updated information is assumed to be more reliable. It would make no sense to insert the old company name, for which it is still in use, and TIM San Marino is evidently only the brand under which it (currently) operates. Epicamused (talk) 07:25, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

@Epicamused: As I already said, both names of the company are in use. {{replyto|SilverLocust}} (talk) 07:32, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but the most correct and most used company name is Telecom Italia San Marino S.p.A. Epicamused (talk) 07:34, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: WP:IAR. A discussion seems to have started, let's see if that discussion forms consensus. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 18:32, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Support. 2.198.87.9 (talk) 07:47, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 11 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Speedy not moved. Per the clear opposition to this request, following a recently closed RM with the same target. (non-admin closure) - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 15:15, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

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TIM San Marino → Telecom Italia San Marino – Restarting discussion: as I explained here, Telecom Italia San Marino is the name of the company (and with which it is best known, given that for years it was the monopolist of the sector in the Republic, and which still dominates the San Marino telephony market), while TIM San Marino is the name of the brand under which it currently operates (in the past it also operated under the Alice brand). Also, the page had previously been moved without WP:CONS. Epicamused (talk) 15:01, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose and speedy close. An identical RM by the same OP was just closed today. See WP:THREEOUTCOMES, or perhaps WP:MR. 162 etc. (talk) 16:26, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

  It was closed because no consensus was reached (only 4 users contributed, even though the majority were in favor of the move). Epicamused (talk) 17:22, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

  WP:THREEOUTCOMES suggests waiting at least three months before re-requesting an RM which was closed "no consensus." I believe that advice should be followed here. 162 etc. (talk) 19:18, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose for the reasons I stated in the previous move request. The company has two listed names for the same entity, "Telecom Italia San Marino S.p.A." and "TIM San Marino S.p.A.". The former is used in some sources, especially from before the 2017 rebranding. The company website mostly uses the newer company name "TIM San Marino S.p.A." (including at the bottom of most pages), with the notable exception of the legal notices (note legali) cited above (these three refs are the same thing). And because the company operates under the branding "TIM San Marino" and is a subsidiary of TIM Group (TIM S.p.A.), I tend to think that the common name is more likely TIM San Marino. For example, the news site Libertas.sm cited above and in the article now calls it "Tim San Marino". The current title was indeed boldly moved in 2017, though it has been here for six years. {{replyto|SilverLocust}} (talk) 01:12, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

  There is no evidence that the most common name is TIM San Marino, in fact there are 14 sources that I cited vs 1 of yours that use Telecom Italia San Marino instead of TIM San Marino. Indeed, the legal notices are the most up-to-date (2022) compared to the lower part of the site (which was probably recycled from the old version of the site, which was recently redone). Epicamused (talk) 10:51, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

  These are not 14 sources. As I noted above, three of them are the same legal notice from the company website. Two of them are pre-2016 articles from Libertas, which as I noted above, has switched to using the new name. Another is a legal document from 2012 of unknown relevance. Most of the rest are apparently autogenerated webpages, such as #14 (which happens to include "TIM San Marino S.p.A." yet is among the bunch of links pasted without explanation). {{replyto|SilverLocust}} (talk) 09:03, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

  The fact remains that the legal notes of the site updated to 2022 report Telecom Italia San Marino S.p.A. Epicamused (talk) 10:32, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References