Talk:TLC: Tables, Ladders & Chairs (2012)

Removal of match listing and images

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:Richard BB recently removed 3 matches I added to the table along with two pictures I added to the article. His reasoning for this as noted in his edit summary was, "All unsourced". The 3 matches were sourced to an article on Pro Wrestling Torch, a reliable source that has been used multiple featured articles. The images added were of Big Show and Sheamus, two confirmed participants in the TLC event. I have added back both the three entries, the 2 images, and the reliable source for the 3 matches. --Odie5533 (talk) 00:32, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Having the three matches there will no participants announced is unnecessary. Might as well add Undertaker vs TBA and Brock Lesner vs TBA to the Wrestlemania card. Its common knowlage and already mentioned in the body of the article so no need to add it there. Also when I removed it i messed up the chart if you could fix it, it would be appreciated. STATic message me! 05:14, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I have never watched wrestling before (and don't plan to) but as I was reading the PWTorch article I was surprised that Tables, Ladders and Chairs meant that there would be matches for each of them. I just figured there would be matches and everyone could use any of objects to fight each other. So I don't think it's common knowledge, and it's not mentioned in the text either. I fixed the table. The |- signifies that the table should create a new row to show the "(c) – refers to the champion heading into the match" text on its own row. --Odie5533 (talk) 05:20, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Our consensus is to only use the official WWE site to source these things. Until WWE themselves say that the match is going to happen, everything else is speculation. Sure enough, the source you cited says a match "likely" to happen. It is not confirmed, and the citation does not justify how it reached its conclusion. As Static said, there is no reason whatsoever to have matches with no participants. Please see WP:CRYSTAL. – Richard BB 07:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

The source says likely in reference to the competitors, not the happening of the match. I think that is an unreasonable to require a reliable source provide their own sources to include them. WP:CRYSTAL is usually intended for speculation on behalf of the editor, not written facts in a reliable source. If at some point in the future we find an article in a reliable source, perhaps from WWE, that gives us different information about the matches then we can always update the encyclopedia. --Odie5533 (talk) 08:10, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

The point is that the only people who can truly know if a match is going to occur is the WWE themselves. There have been plenty of sites we've had cited in the past that declare that a match is going to happen, but it's been removed as they can't possibly know for certain. In short: we only add official matches here, and it only becomes official when the WWE declare that it's going to happen. – Richard BB 08:37, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit request on 26 November 2012

CM Punk's 365 + as Champion will be fighting here in Barclays Center, it would be Ryback, Cena or anyone on backstage, Who will it be? AldrinMRAZ (talk) 10:33, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 10:53, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Removal of content and images

User:BarryTheUnicorn has recently removed content and images from the article stating, "Not needed", "Unnecessary pics that mess with the layout of the page", and "This isn't real". I have added a single picture of the two back to the article using the standard thumbnail method so it should not mess with the layout. I am not entirely sure what "This isn't real" means, but I have attempted to clarify the sentence. Finally, ["Not needed" was stated in regards to the removal of a sentence from the lead that summarized the known matches that will be occurring at the event. As the lead section is meant to summarize the main points of the topic, I thought this information relevant especially to readers that might want to quickly read through the topic without consulting peripheral tables. I have not added this last sentence back as of yet as I would like further input on it. --Odie5533 (talk) 02:27, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Mentioning the main event(s) in the lead seems proper, to me, and is common in past WWE PPV articles. The pictures were a bit much. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:37, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. I will let another editor decide if the material should be added back to the lead. --Odie5533 (talk) 19:05, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

The article is now experiencing another removal of content, this time by User:Jeffhardyred who has removed the section discussing the matches stating, "No need to list things more times than needed": [1]. I added the content back, but it was removed immediately by User:Keith Okamoto who did not state why he felt the content should be removed: [2]. The Wikipedia Manual of Style states, "In an article, significant items should normally be mentioned naturally within the text rather than merely tabulated." I would assume that details such as the main event of a PPV and the most important matches taking place there would be considered significant items and should be discussed in the prose. I would like to form a consensus as to whether or not this PPV article should discuss in prose the main event of the PPV or other matches taking place. --Odie5533 (talk) 19:05, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

What you are doing is adding info that's already covered in the background section in the matches section. We don't do that. Me and Jeff removed it because it's already stated. There is no need to have it there again. Keith Okamoto (talk) 19:32, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

It does not seem possible to discuss the events of a PPV in the Event section of a PPV article without mentioning what the events are. --Odie5533 (talk) 20:54, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, most info of the matches are covered in the background section. It's enough to show the feuds in the matches that will happen. Keith Okamoto (talk) 21:00, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

In the featured article Turning Point (2008), the Event section has information about the events. One line reads, "The fifth match was Booker T's defense of the TNA Legends Championship against Christian Cage, with the added stipulation that if Cage lost, he would be forced to join The Main Event Mafia." One of the lines which you removed read, "The main event will be the tables, ladders, and chairs match between the WWE Championship title-holder CM Punk and challenger Ryback." It seems quite confusing that you would want an Event section to not discuss the events. --Odie5533 (talk) 21:35, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

But on here, there is no Events section on here. The info you're putting in was in the Matches section. Keith Okamoto (talk) 21:41, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

User Jeffhardyred renamed the section and then emptied the contents of it. Should the contents of the Event section be restored? And if not, why not? --Odie5533 (talk) 21:48, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

No because the event hasn't happen yet. Keith Okamoto (talk) 21:55, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I am simply going to have to disagree with you then, but thank you for discussing it. --Odie5533 (talk) 22:04, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Odie, I applaud your enthusiasm for this page, but I'm sorry that I will have to disagree with you. I'm not sure whether you call it tradition, but before a PPV occurs, we typically list the matches in table form, not text. I myself think that a table form is clearer, and to include both table and text is redundant. About the renaming of the section, yeah, it should be called Matches, not Event, before the PPV has happened. After the PPV has occurred, the Matches section will be automatically renamed to Results. The event section which chronicles what happened during the PPV is added once the PPV has happened. You might want to take a look at Extreme Rules (2012), which I supported to GA status. Starship.paint (talk) 01:29, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

My understanding of Wikipedia's Manual of Style guideline at MOS:TABLES is that significant items should be mentioned in the text even if they are tabulated as well, and I consider the main event of a PPV to be a significant item. Not every article needs to follow tradition. --Odie5533 (talk) 06:48, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Unverified information

Recently some unverified information has been added to the article. I have removed it and added it here. If it can be verified, please add the content back along with a reliable source:

On the December 7th edition of Smackdown, Booker T added a no-contact clause into this match that neither Sheamus or Big Show are allowed to make any physical contact until the PPV. If Sheamus breaks the clause, the match will be canceled. If Big Show does the same, he would be stripped of the World Heavyweight Championship. Later in the night, after Sheamus defeated Alberto Del Rio in a singles match, Show would dare Sheamus to hit him, but Sheamus would throw Ricardo Rodriguez at him.

The match would be cancelled on December 4 due to Punk's knee injury after Ryback attacked him on the December 3rd edition of Raw.

Since October 2012, John Cena was accused having an inappropriate romantic relationship with A. J. Lee during the latter's time as Raw general manager, which newly appointed Raw managing supervisor Vickie Guerrero and Dolph Ziggler were trying to prove, beginning a feud between Cena and Ziggler. During the December 3rd episode of Raw, Guerrero (after being coaxed by WWE Chairman Vince McMahon) made a ladder match between Cena and Ziggler for Ziggler's Money in the Bank World Heavyweight Championship contract at the TLC PPV. It marks the second time Ziggler would defend his contract in a match (the first time being in match against Chris Jericho on the August 20th edition of RAW in a contract vs. contract match where if Ziggler lost, he would surrender his Money in the Bank contract to Jericho. If Jericho lost, his WWE contract would be terminated).

On the October 29th edition of Raw, R-Truth would begin to feud with Antonio Cesaro after saving his former tag team partner Kofi Kingston from a post-match assault from Cesaro and Wade Barrett. The week after, he (with Sin Cara, and Rey Mysterio) would defeat Cesaro and The Primetime Players in a 6-man tag team match. At Survivor Series, Cesaro would retain the U.S. Championship, defeating Truth, but on the following SmackDown, Truth would defeat Cesaro in a non-title match, earning another title opportunity. After Truth and Kingston defeated Cesaro and Barrett in a tag team match on the December 5th episode of Main Event, it was announced that Truth was granted another match for the United States Title at TLC.

--Odie5533 (talk) 00:40, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Divas Championship

On WWE.com, they annouced that Naomi gets her title shot against Eve tonight? Proof - http://www.wwe.com/shows/wwetlc/2012/santas-helper-divas-battle-royal-26075450 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rebecca Maria Herrington (talk • contribs) 01:35, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:WWE TLC: Tables, Ladders, and Chairs which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:00, 14 April 2016 (UTC)