Talk:Table manners/Archive 1

Archive 1

Citations?

Can we get some citation for any of this?--Vidkun 03:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Table manners aren't really anthing that one would cite, it is just sort of knowledge - if you are American, and sufficently educated, you just know American table manners. There is no research on the issue, it just sort of is... Same for other nations, although I do not know much of foreign table manners. -zappa 03:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

It's polite to say "please" and "thank you" in France, but not in the U.S.? The Afghani rules seem like some American patriot trying to smear Afghanistan and make it seem primative. In Russia, you must say "Thanks, that was tasty?" This article is kind of pointless.

Here's some citations[1][2]. Samw 21:59, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

"The Afghani rules seem like some American patriot..." You're obviously not Afghani, have never been to Afghanistan, or simply just don't know any Afghanis. These rules ARE accurate and this is how it's traditionally done in Afghani homes.

This entire article sucks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.173.38.112 (talk • contribs) 15:24, 25 July 2006

Yes, and displaying good manners probably sucks, too. Your comment reflects poorly on the student body of Dalhousie University. —Quicksilver^{T @} 05:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

But, there is a grain of truth to the previous comment quicksilver 69.132.87.99 (talk) 23:51, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

And, Could everybody please use WP:SIGN ? Its not hard, and it makes everything not seem like a big wall of text. 69.132.87.99 (talk) 23:51, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Chinese Table Manners

There is an excellent essay on Chinese table manners, titled Chinese Table Manners: You Are How You Eat by Eugene Cooper. It can be found in Applying Cultural Anthropology An Introductory Reader, 7th Edition [3] [ISBN 0073530921] - Cybergoth 20:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

this might be useful:

http://www.nychinatown.com/chinese_table_manners(1).htm

Peterwhy 12:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Please merge this text in. Chinese table manners is being deleted. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Unlike China's neighbor everybody at the table shares plates and dishes. In Asia, everybody gets one plate and they put their food on there plates. Not only do you have to say how good the food is, but if you do not like the food in which you were presented, put it aside and say thank you in a polite tone. Never should you stick your chopsticks a bowl of rice so that they stand upright, this means death to the host. When somebody in the family is to die or pass on, the family would stick a pair of chopsticks in a bowl of sand or rice. So instead of putting the chopsticks upright in the bowl, stick them in opposite directions of each other on the side of the bowl. When you go to get a drink of tea, as you go to put it down make sure that you put the stout of the pot away, so that it's not pointing in anybody direction. It is being rude to your host, as well as disrespectful. As you eat, make sure that you do not tap the side of your bowl with you chopsticks. These means that you are begging, and in resturants, people do this to jesture to the cook that he is taking to long and is doing a bad job. If you were to do this at the home, you are insulting the host, and saying he is doing a bad job.

Cuttlery

Continental fashion? zig zag fashion? Nessuno834 02:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Descriptions can be found here http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/Lifestyle/proper_table_manners.htm, I'll leave it to someone else to add them Will Bradshaw 10 Oct 19:25 (BST)

Propose merge of fork etiquette into Table manners

Most of the information in Fork etiquette seems to be duplicated here, and it is not really just limited to the fork.

I think that it should be included into table manners

Don't merge, the subject has enough information to warrant its own article. -THB 04:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC) Definitely do not merge. Fork etiquette is a fascinating stand-alone subject in its own right. --Gene_poole 23:15, 1 February 2007 (UTC) Merge or linkLizzie Harrison 14:49, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Vague Instructions

There are a few prescriptions on this page that are kind of vague. For example in the section on British table manners, it says "Cutlery is used in the Continental fashion." but there's no indication on the page as to what the "Continental fastion" is. The section on Afghanii manners seems to contradict itself within one list item:

"Traditionally food should be eaten with bare hands; However, cutlery is sometimes provided. Only use your right hand when eating with your hands. There are proper ways of picking up rice and other loose food without spilling any, which one should learn and practice. Wasting food is frowned upon. When cutlery is provided it is usually a spoon and fork since there is seldom need for the use of a knife when eating Afghani food. Even when cutlery is provided it is acceptable to eat with your hands interchangebly."

It says first that one must always eat with the right hand, then says that they can both be used. I'm not familiar with the particulars of Afghan manners, but being a primarily Muslim country I would guess they should use the right hand. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yipely (talk • contribs) 04:45, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

The various sections of this article are inconsistent with one another. Also, several of the characteristics are silly, some even ridiculous, ex: "Never ask for a doggy bag when having a formal dinner." & "Tea or coffee should never be poured into the saucer to cool..."

I think it is important to have good table manners, and various aspects of this article detract from the seriousness it should have.

201.218.110.115 06:37, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Why, specifically, do you consider those two ridiculous? You should bear in mind that people reading this may have no cultural awareness of the culture described at all. Notinasnaid 10:56, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Having lived in Iran for some time, I can safely say that it is very common to pour tea from the glass (they use miniature tooth glasses for tea) into the saucer to cool, and to drink from the saucer. It is also common to sip tea through a lump of sugar placed in the mouth. It is therefore not so "silly" to include such an interdiction in the article (although this has been long edited out). Nick Michael (talk) 23:00, 12 June 2009 (UTC).

British Table Manners

I disagree with the comments on placing of the knife and fork to indicate whether you are still eating or finished. When you put yout cutlery down but haven't finished eating it should be placed with the fork at the eight o'clock position with the prongs down, and the knife at the four o'clock position. When you have finished both knife and fork should be placed at the four o'clock position, fork prongs up. I worked for a number of years as a waiter in hotels so must have observed thousands of people eating, and these are the signals I worked from. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

While I am on the topic, the British table manners section seems a little short given how many rules of etiquette there really are out there. Given that most British people regard American eating habits as a little vulgar, shouldn't the British manners sections be longer and seem more anally retentive?!Ewan carmichael 15:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the placing of the knife and fork is represented incorrectly in this article, I have observed diners to place the fork at the eight o'clock position with the prongs down, and the knife at the four o'clock position, to indicate that they have not finished, though I did not use this as a clue when I was a waiter. My clues came either from the fork being placed prongs up with the knife rested in between the middle two prongs, or simply that the plate had been moved slightly towards the centre of the table when the diner has finished, which while it may not be technically correct, it is a common practice. Tezp 12:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Most of this bit has been copied from this page: [4] which is © Mandy Barrow. I think it'll have to be removed. Also, I agree with the four-o'clock and eight-o'clock thing to indicate you're not done at a meal. I don't know if I was bought up strictly, but I was taught a lot more manners than this... I remember getting a telling off EVERY time I put my elbow on the table until I stopped doing it. Argh. O2mcgovem 23:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I just finished editing the section. It's not copyright Mangy Barrow and I added a lot of stuff. Can anybody think of anything else? O2mcgovem 02:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

"Working class or regional British etiquette is not to converse at all, unless it is necessary." - I don't think this is up to date. 141.161.136.109 (talk) 16:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Four o'clock and eight o'clock? I have never heard of such a thing. I was taught twelve o'clock when finished (this is the same as what is described a six o'clock, although 12 seems more descriptive since both both utensils are pointing together to the the top (ot trhereabouts). Placing the knive a fork in any other postion indicates you are not finished. This should not be done slovenly, but whether it is twenty to five or four o'clock is irrelevant. I must admit it still irritates me when people do not put their knife and fork together when finishing Dainamo (talk) 00:39, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Inaccurate American Table Manners

Most of the table manners in this section is either complete BS or is just plain common sense that is not exclusive to the US.

"When a dish is presented, the food is served to one's plate and then passed on to the next person." No kidding!!! "Never leave home hungry. Leave for your destination at least half full just in case your host is late in preparing diner or the food is displeasing." WTF???? Complete BS.

"Tea or coffee should never be poured into the saucer to cool but should be sipped from the cup. Alternatively, ice may be used to cool either." Pour into the saucer??? Who would EVER pour tea into the saucer?????? And I've never seen ice dropped into hot tea.

"When at an informal dinner, ask for a box when full." No, it is not a requirement to do this. And this only happens at cheap restaurants. I'd never ask for a box if I had dinner at someone's house.WACGuy 00:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

"One should not announce one's urgent necessity to defecate with spoken analogies such as "I am now going to attack the Chileans", or "I have to run go send a fax"."

Part of me just desperately wants "attacking the Chileans" to be a real Peruvian metaphor for defecation.

I'm new to Wikipedia, so please forgive any errors I may make while replying to your comment.... About the food being served to one plate and then passed on, that is actually more of an American custom. For example, many of my friends who are Chinese (not that most Chinese do this, they may, I do not know) have all the dishes laid out, then when everybody is seated people get what they like, added to their bowl of rice. About the never-leaving-home-hungry, I wouldn't go so far as to call it BS. Many people do that.

But I mostly agree with you. Some of the examples you showed ARE random.

Wikiwikiwakoo 69.141.165.175 21:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite!!

I know I am a picky person, but could it be possible to rewrite it so the article does not simply list table manners of random countries? The article now does not seem to be very encyclopedic. I am willing to contribute, if anybody agrees? Wikiwikiwakoo 69.141.165.175 21:56, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

If nobody likes this idea, that's okay, but I'd like to edit some of the stuff in this page anyhow...for example, I was browsing through Chinese table manners....not only were the rules there poorly-written and somewhat redundant, many were common sense (eg not banging chopsticks like drumsticks) Wikiwikiwakoo 69.141.165.175 21:57, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Picky or not, this should not just be a random list of things that a particular person from one country believes is appropriate table manners. The recent one on Tanzania seems sketchy, and while I am no expert at Tanzanian table manners, I am an expert at the English language, and these additions are rubbish. If references can't be given, and if it isn't edited to a minimal acceptable level of English, I think it should be deleted, as should many of the sections from other countries with seemingly random rules. Njsustain (talk) 00:15, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree it needs a proper re-write. I had to edit the Pakistan Etiquette section as - despite it being sourced from the main Wiki article on Food etiquette in Pakistan, the editor made glaring mistakes: generalising all Pakistanis as Muslims, referring to the United Kingdom etiquette as 'British style' and then going on to say the etiquette from the United Kingdom needs you to hold the fork in the right hand with the knife in the left. Anthony 38.112.44.252 (talk) 08:23, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

". . . it is generally impolite to put elbows on tables since doing so creates a risk of tipping over bowls and cups."

The epidemic of broken tableware that has resulted from the near-universal disregard of this rule is of course a complete validation of this argument. Kostaki mou (talk) 02:33, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I've been to an etiquette lession (formal) and I was told it is acceptable to put one's elbow(s) on the table as long as it's not obstructive. Kyprosサマ (talk) 11:04, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Fine with me. (I hope my sarcasm was not lost on anybody.)Kostaki mou (talk) 05:14, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

subtle vandalism

this page seems to be subject to a lot of subtle vandalism - e.g. removing / adding the word "not" to the listed rule in order to reverse their meanings etc. hopefully someone can put this right.

British table manners

"Urinating at the table"

well one would hope not..! umm is there something I don't know here or should this just be removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.77.134.1 (talk) 12:13, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Silly as this may seem, it was customary before the 19th century to keep a chamber pot in the dining room. You can see one in the bottom right corner of this picture - although the people are only drinking rather than eating. I have no idea of the etiquette of actually using the chamber pot! Nick Michael (talk) 20:55, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Why are New Zealand and Australian manners discussed in the British Section? Especially Australian since it points out it is NOT the same a British. It should be listed completely separately. Or should it be the "British Commonwealth" section????Njsustain (talk) 22:47, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Hats while dining: United States

The reference I quoted regarding hats states:

Dear Miss Manners, [Judith Martin, etquette maven]

I would like to know the circumstances of when a woman can wear a hat while indoors or while dining.

I understand that men — not exclusively — do not wear any headgear except: law enforcement, emergency responders, catering personnel, and ritual heads, and perhaps other exceptional cases. I also know that men customarily do not wear hats while dining at home, in a restaurant, or outdoors.

My wife is European and she claims that women have the exclusivity to wear a hat while dining. What's the true social etiquette for this topic?

Gentle Reader,

It is a lot more complicated since the proliferation of the baseball cap. Miss Manners is constantly importuned by young ladies who invoke the gender defense when she invokes the rule about removing hats indoors.

It doesn't move her a bit. Your wife is right that what is clearly a lady's hat — something with flowers, veils or other such frivolity — may be worn inside, as well as outdoors (although never at home or after dark). [my emphasis] Unisex hats must be removed.

I fail to see why anyone would consider this an irrelevent reference for the text in the article. Please refrain from deleting the text again. If you have a different opinion, please respons here or your IP address will be reported as a vandal. Njsustain (talk) 08:59, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Asparagus

I haven't been able to find much information about eating asparagus, other than that it must be eaten with fingers. However, this obviously cannot apply if it is smothered in Hollandaise sauce. From what I have been able to surmise from some internet sources (which are certainly not as reliable as etiquette books), they are traditionally served plain, or only with butter, and can then be handled with fingers, dipped in sauce, and eaten in that way. (I can just picture little elegant silver cups of Hollandaise sauce on a plate or on the side). If already covered with some other sauce, or already cut up, the asparagus must then be eaten with a fork (and knife if necessary). I have actually sent a letter to Miss Manners (Judith Martin) requesting clarification, so I will hold off on further edits in the unlikely case she actually responds. I assure you that I am a neutral party in this debate as I avoid asparagus in my diet. Even tiny amounts produce noticeable levels of the malodorous methyl-mercaptan in many people's bodies, which is unfortunate for such a tasty and nutritional vegetable which is fun to grow, cook, and eat. Njsustain (talk) 14:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

As you say, in England anyway, asparagus should be eaten in the fingers. If sauce is served, it is separate and the spears are not (or shouldn't be) smothered in sauce. I've never encountered cut-up asparagus in a dish, at least not by themselves - in an asparagus risotto for example, where obviously fingers are out, but that's not an English dish. Of course, you do what you like anyway: my mother, of a previous generation (now 91) doesn't like eating with her fingers and will unashamedly attack asparagus with knife and fork. But only at home. If she were at a dinner-party, she'd certainly toe the line - we are of bourgeois stock and like to 'do the right thing' in case anyone thinks we are naff! Nick Michael (talk) 20:55, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Chinese table manners translation

I'm not sure if this is appropriate for English wikipedia (how to turn down a cigarette offered by the host at the table), especially the Mandarin characters. I have absolutely no objection to Chinese table manners in the article, but actual non-English text is beyond the scope of the English Wikipedia project. Should we have a translation of everything to say in every language? Aren't there more important things one should know how to say other than how to turn down a cigarette at a meal? And someone who can read Mandarin would hardly be looking here for advice, in my opinion. I will remove the non-Roman characters it if no one has a compelling arument to the contrary. Njsustain (talk) 16:08, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Chinese table manners utensils

Eating utensil etiquette shouldn't be mentioned here, move the article info on this to Eating utensil etiquette

Removing food from mouth

"If food must be removed from the mouth for some reason, it should be done using the same method which was used to bring the food to the mouth, i.e. by hand, by fork, etc." This kind of grosses me out. If I'm eating with someone, and they want to remove a chunk of fat from their mouth, I don't ever want to see the chunk of fat. Not pried out with a fork. Not dripping from their hand. What happened to using a napkin? - Rare Pickle (talk) 01:29, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more Pickle. I immediately went to amputate the offending sentence, but found it protected by a reference from the very depths of vulgarity, I mean the unspeakably ghastly Miss Manners. Dare we remove the thing notwithstanding? Obviously by the very same method with which it was used to add to Wikipedia in the first place... Nick Michael (talk) 08:46, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to add a different referenced point of view if you feel the subject needs rounding out. Also, would you mind justifying your completely unexplained personal attack which is improper, even in the talk section? Njsustain (talk) 10:52, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Only just saw your above request Njsustain. What nonsense! There is no "personal attack" - do you really consider "Miss Manners" a person? It is a newspaper column FGS. The fact that there may be a person writing the column in no way makes my comments an attack on that person. Go ahead and report me - if you don't mind publically displaying a total lack of humour. Nick Michael (talk) 08:33, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not interested in "reporting" you, only in pointing out that your comments have no point. We're here to edit an article, not to make jokes, however weak, that are totally unconstructive. In the end, you have presented no information whatsoever which helps the article, only showed an unbased unexplained childish contempt for a certain person's writing. Who is humorless? Njsustain (talk) 12:37, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Lame external reference

Recently someone created a WP account solely for the purpose of promoting their own website by adding a link to this page. The moment I went to it I saw a sophomoric mistake, went to another page and saw another, then went to another page and saw a major omission of content. The bottom line is that the website does not seem to be of any authority... it is simply someone or some people writing about table manners just like we are doing here... just because they registered for a website doesn't mean they have any authority or expertise, and there is no reason to advertise them here. Why other people (one anonymous editor, and one that make terrible jokes) are coming to their "rescue" is beyond me. Bottom line... website is of questionable validity and there is no reason to list them (especially for them to list themselves) as a reference on manners. Njsustain (talk) 18:22, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Unreferenced material

This article is essentially unsalvageable in its present format. In future, I will be removing wholesale any parts of it not backed up by reliable secondary sources. It is not practical to expect future editors to take content which is nothing more than personal advice (or hearsay: absolutely no way of knowing from the article) and find references for it, because in the process they would have to completely rewrite the sections in question. Pruning the article is far more likely to result in fresh, productive work being carried out on it. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 09:10, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

I want to delete most of it. There is no way of knowing if these "tips" are common practice, such that not following them will cause deep offence, or if they only apply in the most formal of occasions. I suspect a mixture. Some of it could even be made up. This makes the content totally useless. --Pontificalibus (talk) 22:08, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Go on then: delete and see what happens. Cunningham (above) was all words... I tend to agree with you, BUT - (a) it's not always easy to find sources/citations (Wikipedia has become the major source of citations in itself, which leads us to a circular argument), and (b) a lot of these "manners" are rather interesting, even if they're not formally supported. I for one won't complain if you "delete most of it", but I'd be miffed to see the English section deleted, since it's pretty accurate - but unsupported. Same for the Swiss. Good luck. Nick Michael (talk) 20:55, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree the English section is interesting, but it belongs in a book which we can then cite. If none of this has been published in a reliable source, we run the risk of perpetuating fallacies. Living in England, I've never seen anyone tip their soup bowl away from themselves while using a soup spoon, so I'd guess this only applies in the most formal of settings. Now, what about the Afghanistan section, when I first read it I assumed those things were common practice, but they could all be the equivalent of English soup-tipping for all I know.--Pontificalibus (talk) 21:48, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

What? You tip your soup bowl towards you? Shame on you Pontificalibus! I was always taught to tip it away from me, but then I am from a middle-aspiring-upper-middle background, where it was frightfully important to do the "right thing". I can cite: http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/behaviourfood.html where you will see lots of sources for English table manners, including soup-tipping (but reliable I don't know?). Today, I hardly ever tip my bowl away from me, unless, as you say, in very formal cases. Anyway, with my upper-class aspirations, I tend to ignore all the "rules" and slurp my soup like any lorry-driver. Still I find these "rules" quite fascinating and it would be a shame to scrap them all from the article. Nick Michael (talk) 22:57, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

There must be sources out there somewhere. I remember the "Morgan's Modern Manners" column that used to appear in the Times each week. That covered all this sort of stuff, but probably isn't available online.--Pontificalibus (talk) 23:03, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Ha! Put the first ref. in - found in my library (although I wouldn't like it to become generally known that I have such books). Trouble is though, many of these "manners" are class-related, and certainly change with time. So the upper-middle class will tip their soup plates away from them whilst the rest have no problem tipping them towards them. I was always told to use a spoon and fork to eat my pudding, never a spoon alone, "yes, even if it's ice-cream, dear". I doubt anyone does that today. This article is predestined for trouble and strife, and if such things as table manners are to be made clear, a complete book would be necessary. Nick Michael (talk) 09:03, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I've deleted all the unreferenced statements. I expect to be reverted, but at least now we have something to base a comparison on. —Soap— 23:38, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, I'm pleasantly surprised. Two days have gone by and nobody's restored any of the content yet. Of course if someone can find reliable references it would be great, but I'm not sure it's possible since by nature it's all opinions. Do the sources we have in there today pass WP:RS criteria? —Soap— 02:39, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Okay, you've made your point. If you want to improve the article you have a lot of leeway, but if you really don't think it is salvagable, it should either be turned into a very short entry about what table manners are, with a couple of examples only, or should be deleted entirely. BTW, *everything* is all opinions... but there are plenty of reliable authorities that describing proper table manners, for example... the ones already referenced in the article. Njsustain (talk) 08:58, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I dont know what makes you think I wasnt serious, because I was. The way I see it, if this article had been short all along, and someone came and added as much unreferenced content as you did here, it would be reverted instantly and I would expect no one to argue for its inclusion. The only difference here is the content has been on the page for years, so we know it can't be referenced easily or else someone would have done it long before now. —Soap— 02:23, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

I didn't say you weren't serious. I said you were making a point. Well, the article was much better before, even though what is in it at the moment has references. That is my point. Congratulations on your victory and good luck.Njsustain (talk) 07:59, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Food should be tasted first before salt and pepper are added. Applying garnishes before the food is tasted is viewed as an insult to the cook, as it shows a lack of faith in their ability to prepare a meal.

I am happy to report that this all-too-often-repeated piece of nonsense is not supported by the reference given, which makes no mention of it. (Would you not put ketchup or onions on a hamburger until you've tasted it?) The fact of the matter is, it is extremely rude of a host to supply guests with condiments and take offense when they use them! It is like laying a trap for them. Kostaki mou (talk) 05:51, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Issue with format and tone of article

This article suffers from a major issue in that it's present a list of rules for "good table manners" for the U.K. and the U.S. as if they where universally accepted here in reality that few who consider themselves as having good table manners follows the rules presented in the article to fullest. These lists may be what is considered traditional table manners in the U.K. and the U.S. but many people have relaxed their view on some aspects of them such how to use a soup spoon, whether the host must take the first bite, when salt and pepper and other garnishes may be added to your food, whether elbows on the table is OK, etc. Thus we need to be clear in the article that their is some differing views what is considered good tables manners these days compare to the traditional views. Just as the definition of good manners can very from culture to culture it can very within a culture. There are some basic set of table manners that most people agree upon these days such as using utensils to eat with, not eating with your mouth open, not talking with your mouth full, etc. --Cab88 (talk) 08:41, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Your opinions as to whether the established etiquette of table manners are or should be followed are irrelevent. If you have a verifiable source which supports your statements, you may add them to the article. Otherwise, the article has no place for the statements that "relaxed" rules are acceptable table manners. Njsustain (talk) 12:24, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Archive 1