Talk:Lake Tai

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Geography

This page needs more info on the geography of Tai Lake, especially relating to the Tai Lake basin (e.g. how it was formed, distinctive features etc). Bohaskan (talk) 12:31, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

POV

Not only does the grammar and logic need to be fixed, but there are too many opinions here. Save that stuff for Wikitravel. dq 17:01, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

This page's treatment of the lake's admittedly epic pollution problem is sketchy at best and dangerously party-line at worst. See New York Times article "In China, a Lake's Champion Imperils Himself," in Asia International Oct 14 2007, by Joseph Kahn. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.12.197.249 (talk) 04:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Name of this article: Taihu Lake to Lake Tai, Tai Lake, or Taihu

I'd suggest that "Taihu Lake" is not a correct name of this article. The name Tài Hú literally means "Grand Lake" in Chinese (Tài for "Grand" and Hú for "Lake"). Naming it "Taihu Lake" will cause a redundency in the literal meaning ("Grand Lake Lake" ?).

I'd suggest that "Lake Tai", "Tai Lake", or simply "Taihu", can be appropriate names of this article.--supernorton 05:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I concur. dq 18:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I think this page should be moved back to Taihu Lake. This is the usage by the newspaper China Daily. Although, a correct literal translation into English would be "Lake Tai", Taihu lake is used more. Ocedits (talk) 09:53, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

The correct name in ENGLISH i[s] Lake Taihu, as accepted by United Nations rules and Chinese official naming conventions. This is the same as Mount Huangshan, as listed by UNESCO in the cultural heritage list. Shenhemu (talk) 05:31, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Well they would both be linguistically wrong then, quality English news sources generally use Lake Tai, as has been demonstrated in the last move request below. You should know enough Chinese to recognise the name Lake Taihu contains a redundancy. —HXL: 聊天 (T) 和 貢獻 (C) 13:06, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Of course I am aware of the redundancy! We discussed the same issue at Mount Huangshan for a long time. Now you might know enough Chinese to recognise the same redundancy there! We are not aiming at taking sides in a linguistic dispute at WP. The guidelines are clear. For foreign geonames, we should use the most commonly used name in English. Shenhemu (talk) 03:57, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Those sources are still wrong and do not fit our article, because the phrasing "Huangshan is a mountain range" ('Mountains', not 'Mountain') has stood as the first sentence of the article for so long. —Xiaoyu: 聊天 (T) 和 贡献 (C) 01:02, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Average depth

On one end, it says 20 m, and another end says 2 m. Which is it? O_o Hanfresco 07:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Requested moves

Requested move 2007: Taihu Lake to Lake Tai

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Taihu Lake → Lake Tai — as above —supernorton 13:20, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support Well, if Taihu lake means "grand lake lake" then I support the move--Pheonix15 (talk) 09:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support move per usage in English reference link. — AjaxSmack 19:54, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support - If as stated then I agree with this move. --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (tαlk) 21:30, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support - Lake Tai or Taihu_(lake) only makes sense. dq 21:37, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed from Taihu Lake to Lake Tai as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 13:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Requested move 2009: Lake Tai to Tai Lake

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no move. Consensus seems to be in favour of moving the page, but the new title is disputed. Please feel free to re-request a move if there is consensus for a new title. PeterSymonds (talk) 01:53, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

---

Lake Tai → Tai Lake — Tai Lake per adjusted WP:NC-ZH, Category:Lakes of China. --TrueColour (talk) 17:15, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose pending evidence that the proposed title is more commonly used. Knepflerle (talk) 00:13, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment, see Google "evidence" below. Tai Lake more common than Lake Tai. TrueColour (talk) 20:25, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
• Comment "tai lake" 34300 - "lake tai" 21800 - "lake taihu" 23300 - "taihu lake" 78900 - "taihu" 1700000 - "tai hu" 27700 - "lake tai hu" 292000 - "tai hu lake" 215000 — 76.66.197.2 (talk) 04:46, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose Lake Tai Hu is more common 76.66.197.2 (talk) 04:46, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment Can naming conventions override such Google tests? It does not look very senseful to take the Google count winner. This has much bias. Official Chinese sources use "X Lake", see Category:Lakes of China. TrueColour (talk) 20:25, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

The most official source I could find uses "Taihu Lake".

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) has a section on how to determine what is an "Widely accepted name". I think it doesn't mention Google Web searches, though.

Google books yields 736 hits for "Lake Tai", of which however around 453, i.e. more than 50%, actually seem to be for "Lake Tai Hu" or "Lake Tai-hu". "Lake Taihu" gets 673 hits, "Tai lake" 656, "Taihu lake" 737. google scholar, on the other hand, is very much more for "Taihu Lake": 657 "Lake Tai", 1990 for "Lake Taihu", 1250 for "Tai Lake", 5320 for "Taihu Lake". Yaan (talk) 15:21, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose: Most common name seems to be "Taihu Lake". Yaan (talk) 15:24, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment: Taihu Lake, like Tai Lake would fall in the X Lake, see for this scheme WP:NC-ZH, Category:Lakes of China. Both are at least better than "Lake Tai". TrueColour (talk) 16:13, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't see the difference between "Lake Tai" and "Tai Lake". I would support a move to "Taihu Lake", though. Yaan (talk) 16:29, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

• Support "Tai Lake" , OR if this gets no majority, support move to "Taihu Lake" TrueColour (talk) 16:13, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2009: Lake Tai to Taihu Lake

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was page moved.  Skomorokh  09:04, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Lake Tai → Taihu Lake — Per adjusted WP:NC-ZH, Category:Lakes of China, supported by Google Scholar. --TrueColour (talk) 21:26, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Google Scholar (compiled by Yaan, see above) 657 "Lake Tai", 1990 for "Lake Taihu", 1250 for "Tai Lake", 5320 for "Taihu Lake".

• Support the proposed move. GoodDay (talk) 00:16, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
• Support per statement in last move discussion. Yaan (talk) 13:14, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2011: Taihu Lake to Lake Tai

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: To move the page to Lake Tai, despite the disruptive editing the nominator participated in to gain this. It should be noted that although you disagree with someone's comment, it should not be scored out or blanked from the page. Also, assuming someone is immediately a sockpuppet because they agree with someone else that you don't, is not the best way to assume good faith. KiloT 19:35, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

---

Taihu Lake → Lake Tai – 1) As has been belaboured upon previously, the "hu" in "Taihu Lake" literally means "lake". This is possibly the only feature in China that I know of that has this redundancy.

2) TrueColour would be false now...The feature name guideline at WP:NC-ZH does not endorse the usage of "hu Lake" or "shan Mountain", which are both redundant.

3) I would prefer Tai Lake as this syntax more closely reflects that of Chinese, but as has been shown above with the evidence, "Lake Tai" is a more common name than "Tai Lake"

4) TrueColour is ultimately a sock of the banned Tobias Conradi, so the last RM in mid-December 2009 was procedurally void. –HXL's Roundtable and Record 14:05, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

• Support for the same reasons as in a previous request that was later overturned without much evidence. I know the redundant current title gets some press but "Lake Tai" is more common in quality English sources (e.g., Economist, Guardian, New York Times, Washington Post) and is consistent with Wikipedia's style manual. I think people might not like "Lake Tai" because it looks so short. —  AjaxSmack  16:06, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose It doesn't mean lake in English. It is unknown to mean lake in English. It doesn't matter if it does mean lake, since it's not English. The form used in English is the form to be used, even if some bilingual person will find it idiosyncratic. Seems like what was pointed out in the last discussion is that Lake Taihu or Taihu Lake or variant thereof (Lake Tai Hu, Tai Hu Lake, ...) is most common. There are many instances were language X has word River, and the English name becomes River River, because one is not English, and is attached to the English word, same with Lake. See how many times "al-Qaeda base" is used in English. Did you know that "al-Qaeda" means "the base", so that term is "the base base", which is stupid if you translate al-Qaeda, but you don't, since al-Qaeda is not known to mean base in English, it makes sense in English, since al-Qaeda is not English. 184.144.163.181 (talk) 04:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Vote struck out because double votes in any move discussion are not allowed; it is clear from the "Hu isn't English so it doesn't mean lake in English" argument that this IP is the same as 65.95.13.213. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 12:23, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I unstruck it. The closing admin can note your objection. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:21, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Re-strike-out one of the comments please. It is clear from the arguments expressed that this IP has voted twice; see Shelfskewed's comments on my talk. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 17:26, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

This is not clear to me. Neither ip address appears to be blocked. Please assume good faith. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 18:51, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

That's because IPs both can rotate and cannot serve as sockpuppeteers. I abide by "guilty until proven innocent", yet I don't shove it down others' throats, like you do. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 19:37, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

• I did not say "hu means 'lake' in English". I said it "literally means lake". As AjaxSmack pointed out, quality English sources use "Lake Tai". Anyway, this post is one of the most ridiculous that I have seen, comparable to the only IP's post in this discussion. Reviewing administrators, please disregard this IP's post. It shows zero knowledge of translation guidelines as applied in Wikipedia. –HXL's Roundtable and Record 04:26, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose the commonname from the last disucssion is the current name. "Hu" isn't an English word anyways, so there is no redundancy in English. 65.95.13.213 (talk) 05:04, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

• Anon, you can persist in making that '"hu" is not English' argument, or perhaps you could keep your hillbilly/"Speak A-muh-rican" attitudes to yourself; otherwise I will have no choice but to silence you. We don't have article titles at "Tianshan Mountains", "Huangshan Mountains", "Changbaishan Mountains", or any of that hogwash either, because "shan" is Mandarin pinyin for Sino-Japanese "山", or mountain, and we translate the "shan" anyway. This is the exception, and this is the most that I am willing to shove this point onto your screen. And what is determined to be the common name by someone who could do nothing better but to break geographic naming conventions (TrueColour, aka the banned Tobias Conradi) is COMPLETELY VOID. In fact, if I were as angry when I initially posted this move request as I am with you now, I would have moved it myself. On another note, from the nonsensical '"hu" is not English' argument alone it seems that the IP you are using (65.95.13.213) is identical to another IP (184.144.163.181). That can be considered voting twice, which is expressly forbidden. –HXL's Roundtable and Record 05:24, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

  HXL, this IP editor has a reasonable argument. In fact, it appeals to Wikipedia's community-consensus–derived guidelines, unlike most of yours. Do not worry, 65.95.13.213, despite the bluster here HXL49 has no power to "silence" you. HXL49, please do not resort to threats, threats have no place whatsoever here, and only serve to make you look like you have nothing useful to say. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:21, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

  Opinions such as "this is not English" carry no weight, as seen here. As such, this IP editor makes a point to spew his nonsense (in fact, bullshit) out. And, equally, saying that an argument as stupid as his "appeals to Wikipedia's community-consensus-derived guidelines" when the argument itself supports a violation of Chinese naming conventions and when you don't name such "community-consensus-derived" guidelines does not reflect well on you at all. You do not have specifics and as a participant in this RM discussion, are certainly not closing this debate. My god, if IP editors will be so stupid in RM's and XFD's, they might as well be disallowed from entering votes; let's see how much support this proposal will garner at the village pump. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 17:26, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

  Your link to the Suifenhe RM does not support your claim that the opinion doesn't carry any weight; I'm not sure what your point was in linking to that. Of course, it doesn't carry any weight, just like your argument that "Taihu Lake" is redundant does not carry any weight. Both arguments are completely irrelevant when determining article titles at Wikipedia, as far as I can tell. Both make some sense and are interesting, but both are ultimately not relevant to this discussion. The guideline I was referring to is WP:COMMONNAME - the ip editor said above "The form used in English is the form to be used, even if some bilingual person will find it idiosyncratic." That is the only issue I can find on this page that has anything to do with whether this page should be moved. How does the ip's argument support a violation of WP:NC-ZH? Your idea to ban IP editors from move discussions is a non-starter, don't bother. And the evidence on this page will certainly not support your case! ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 18:51, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

  I said that the "is not English" argument alone does not carry any weight; the closing admin at Suifenhe had this in mind.

  How about you read WP:NC-ZH#Topograhical before appearing to be so ignorant? None of these idiosyncracies are endorsed by what the convention gives. The convention is based on the meaning of the terms in Chinese and pinyin rules. Of course you don't find my argument carries any weight because you don't know (for now) what I am talking about, fabricating arguments along the way because you don't have any.

  I said, "How does the ip's argument support a violation of WP:NC-ZH?" Does the question make sense to you? Suffixing "hu" is not endorsed, obviously, but it is not proscribed, either, is it? I don't think anyone is trying to use something other than Pinyin here, are they? (I don't know pinyin, so I can't tell.) Your response here is curious; I still don't know what you're talking about :) ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 20:02, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

  In terms of WP:COMMONNAME, quality English sources matter more; you know that much rubbish on the Internet will follow WP's name. As AjaxSmack noted, the Washington Post, New York Times, Economist, Guardian, and many more invariably use "Lake Tai", not this stupid form. The IP, and anyone, for that matter, can say anything; he clearly does not notice or care that TrueColour is a puppet of the banned Tobias Conradi and that the move discussion from Lake Tai to the current title is thus null and void. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 19:37, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

  I never said the IP editors would or should carry the day, did I? Did you think I said that? If so, why? The fact that a banned editor initiated a previous RM is also uninteresting here; other editors supported the merits of the argument, and in any case this RM can stand on its own. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 20:02, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

• Support Google search for Lake Tai yielded 38 million results. Another search for Taihu Lake yielded only 263,000 results. Frankly, if it is redundant in any language, then it is redundant on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is global. Ryan Vesey (talk) 16:24, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Oppose I checked this link, http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%AA%E6%B9%96, to the Chinese version of Wikipedia. Using Google translator it shows the page title as being Taihu Lake. I don't understand Chinese so, if anyone who can read Chinese can prove to me that this doesn't mean Taihu Lake, I will immediately switch back to support. Ryan Vesey (talk) 16:30, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

But Google Translate, like many translating machines, is not very reliable. The name of this lake in Chinese is "太湖", romanised, without spacing, to "Taihu". The second character (湖 hu) means "lake". The current title (Taihu Lake) as it stands is a pleonasm; it essentially is "Tai Lake Lake". this is similar for the mountain ranges. Huangshan (黄山), not Huangshan Mountains, as that is again a pleonasm; the second character here (山 shan) means "mountain". So don't listen to the IP above. And also, keep in mind that a mainline Google search alone is inadvisable (see WP:GOOGLE), though, as you stated, this ratio is overwhelming. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 19:02, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

• Support Despite the repulsive behavior and vapid arguments put forward by the proposer, "Lake Tai" does appear to be a more common name. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 20:02, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
• comment Regarding vandalism in this discussion: the closing admin should carefully examine the history of this talk page, the nominator has removed at least one dissenting opinion, see this diff and this one. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 21:23, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

  Since this is the only account I operate, my behaviour is irrelevant to the outcome of this discussion, as shown with your vote above "despite...'Lake Tai' does appear to be a more common name". That you can resort to calling it vandalism is a dirty, lowly action; also this brings you to the level of IPs and new users, who falsely deem edits vandalism far more than established editors. Remove this "comment" and I will follow by removing my response. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 21:42, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

  I suspect it will ultimately prove to be irrelevant to the outcome, but it seemed worth pointing out that this sort of thing is going on. The closing admin might want to read all comments about the proposal, and I'm just pointing out that to be sure the closer should examine the history, not just the page as it stands when closed, since this discussion has been vandalized repeatedly. I'm not sure what you mean by "the level of IPs and new users"; I'm fine with that. I call it what it is though. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 21:57, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

  "level of IPs and new users"...as in those who falsely deride edits they strongly disagree with as vandalism. And why waste your time to make this post in the hopes of allowing the closing admin to read all of the comments about the proposal when I had long stopped removing the IP's posts and after that, I had, at most, struck one of them out? —HXL's Roundtable and Record 22:03, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

ferris wheel?

The section on the ferris wheel seems unsubstantiated and talks about some 'city center' view but never divulges about any specific location around the lake. If this is the ferris wheel in Huzhou, then unfortunately, it gives no view of the actual lake. (i know, i went on it yesterday, i live in Huzhou)Megatonman (talk) 15:54, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I've found it's in Wuxi, the north side of the lake not Huzhou on the south side. Updated the article as such. [Mega]

Ferris wheel section

Might need to be removed anyway (as above) but whoever is putting the anchorlink directly in the section title: stop it. There is never a good reason to do that. Leave it in the line afterwards or above as you like, but don't ruin the section title formatting and make real incoming links that much harder to provide. — LlywelynII 03:57, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Name: Lake Tai to Lake Taihu

As much as it pains me to mention this, the last decade of this ngram is pretty damning. Lake Tai's been on top for the last two centuries but, in the last decade, people seem to be using "Taihu" much, much more. I think it's a ridiculous name, but we shouldn't really be judging people because of that.

Scholar more or less backs up the ngram:

~23.2k for Taihu Lake

~9.8k for Lake Taihu

~5.8k for Tai Lake

~3k for Taihu

~1.6k for Lake Tai

~840 for Tai Hu or Tai-hu

and much less for Tai-hu Lake or Tai Hu Lake, Lake T'ai, Lake Tai-hu or Lake Tai Hu, T'ai-hu or T'ai Hu, T'aihu, Lake T'ai-hu or Lake T'ai Hu, T'aihu Lake, T'ai Lake, Lake T'aihu, or T'ai-hu Lake or T'ai Hu Lake. Great Lake is obviously harder to search for but limiters like China or Shanghai put it at less than a thousand and always qualified by Tai or Taihu or some variation. Same thing with Grand Lake, which is about 1/5 as common.

Books:

357 for Lake Tai

307 for Lake Taihu

271 for Taihu Lake

and freaks out re: Tai Lake (It refuses to go to the end of the searchs and continues to give the BS estimate)

I'm fine with ignoring all that and keeping the page where it is (maybe all the scholars are observing some PRC diktat that doesn't reflect usage in other countries?) but what do y'all think? — LlywelynII 07:41, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

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Remove "multiple issues" tag?

I'd like to delete this tag. The reason seems vague & the tag pointless to me. Other opinions? Pashley (talk) 01:49, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

voy:Lake Tai may have material that could be used to improve this article. Pashley (talk) 01:54, 27 April 2020 (UTC)