Talk:Take a Daytrip

Requested move 2 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 06:09, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

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Take a Daytrip → Take A Daytrip – The A needs to be capital per the news coverage and the subject's social media accounts Sabih omar 23:49, 2 August 2023 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). Sabih omar 23:56, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

The A in the middle is a capital A per news coverage like Rolling Stone, Billboard.com, i-D GQ and Forbes, and the subject's social media pages -Twitter and Instagram AND music sharing sites: Apple Music, Spotify, Youtube search AND the Grammy Award site. I tried moving, but looks like there is an already existing page Take A Daytrip that redirects to this current page. The proposal is to move the page to Take A Daytrip since that is the proper name. Sabih omar 23:56, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Oppose and speedy close. Per MOS:TITLECAPS Wikipedia article titles do not capitalize definite and indefinite articles, even if sources tend to. WPscatter ^t/_c 00:37, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per MOS:TITLECAPS. See the two prior RMs at Talk:Find a Grave. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 01:10, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support per MOS:PERSONAL: "for a living subject, prefer the spelling consistently used in the subject's own publications." MOS:TITLECAPS doesn't apply to people's names. 162 etc. (talk) 01:58, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

There is no difference in spelling between the two variants – only a difference in capitalization. See also Talk:sujatha baliga#Requested move 11 April 2023. And this is not a personal name – it is the name of a duo. See also Talk:Kiss (band)/Archive 1#Requested move, Talk:Ling tosite Sigure#Requested move 19 April 2023, Talk:Pret a Manger#Requested move 3 February 2023, Talk:Ive (group)#Requested move 14 January 2023, Talk:Haim (band)#Requested move 4 December 2022, Talk:LiSA (Japanese musician, born 1987)#Requested move 11 November 2022, and Talk:NEXT (Chinese band)#Requested move 11 October 2022. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:35, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

MOS:PERSONAL is a subsection of MOS:CAPS, so yes, this applies to the capitalization in question. 162 etc. (talk) 19:11, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

But this is not a personal name. And the full quoted sentence starts with "Use the style that dominates for that person in reliable sources" and the whole paragraph is about personal names. This is about a duo, not a person. And we don't always follow self-styling for people either when their self-styling is especially unusual. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:54, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

As I mentioned below, the trouble is that we are assuming that the A is an article, but this could be the letter A, as in Take A (of Daytrip). We can never tell for sure unless the persons that named it explains it somewhere. In that case, I think it is prudent to use the name the way it appears in majority of the sources (especially primary ones). WP:CAPITALIZATION makes an exception for proper names in the very first sentence, I do not think we need to even look beyond that for proper names (not epithets). - Sabih omar 21:23, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Unless we have some clear indication otherwise, I think we should assume the phrase is what it appears to be, i.e. that the word is an article. The other interpretation seems rather obscure, and if they meant it that way, they would probably say it somewhere. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:33, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I didn't even bother responding the first time because I find the notion that the "A" is not an article patently ridiculous, but here is a video where the duo themselves pronounce their name in a manner that can only imply it's an article. WPscatter ^t/_c 23:00, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

I was giving an example of how our "assumption" can mislead us, and for that reason, altering a proper name is problematic. But anyway, consensus is King, i am just presenting my viewpoint. Sabih omar 23:31, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Comment WP:CAPITALIZATION explicitly mentions this- "Do not capitalize the second or subsequent words in an article title, unless the title is a proper name." I think this exception in MOS:TITLECAPS applies as well: "For article titles that are not the titles of works and are not in foreign languages...". MOS:TMRULES might also apply since this is the stage name of a musical group, but I am not sure. This seems different than Talk:Find a Grave, since the Find a Grave site itself does not support the claim for capitalization. For Take A Daytrip, sources overwhelmingly use capital A (I have added many examples above). Sabih omar 04:34, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

@Sabih omar, you're misunderstanding those policies. Wikipedia article titles normally have no capitalization other than the first word; without any exception, the title of this article would be "Take a daytrip". The exceptions you cite allow the titles of works and proper nouns to be in title case, as they are here. There are specific policies in MOS:TITLECAPS that address indefinite and definite articles (a, an, the) in titles, and they state that they should not be capitalized.

The exception in MOS:PERSONAL cited by @162 etc. would support this move if it applied here, but my interpretation is that the spirit of the policy is for surnames like "Van Halen" or "de Guzmán". While this article is in some ways about "a living subject", I don't think this application of the policy is appropriate. Certainly an understandable position to take, but I think keeping the "a" lowercase would be more WP:CONSISTENT overall. WPscatter ^t/_c 04:57, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

We are assuming that the "A" here is an article, but this can very well be Take A (in the sense of beginning, like Kid A) of Daytrip (the duo uses simply Daytrip to refer to themselves in production tags). That is the danger of altering a name given to an entity or group.

By the way I have found a few articles that capitalize the article: John The Blind (Songwriter), Once A Tree (Music duo), Make A Stand (horse), just to put on your radar. Sabih omar 05:43, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for finding those. How did you find them? AFAICT, none of those are the result of consensus discussions. Two of them are simply remaining at the titles chosen by the person who created the articles. The remaining one, "John The Blind", was from a recent undiscussed move, which I have reverted. IIUC, the term would ordinarily refer to John of Bohemia, and John the Blind has redirected to that article since it was created in 2008. And AFAICT, none of the independent reliable sources that are cited in the article refer to that performer as "John [T/t]he Blind" – only the Atlantic Records company promotional material does. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:27, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. We do not capitalize a/an except at the beginning of the article title (or beginning of a sentence, etc.). This is such a basic matter of English writing that we've never felt the need to have an MoS shortcut for it. MOS:PERSONAL applies to normal names, not the marketing stylization of band/duo names (MOS:TM)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:34, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

  I respect the consensus and guidelines but personally disagree that this is a basic matter of English writing. We cannot define parts of speech in a “name”. All names should be considered proper nouns and written according to its common usage, especially when supported by sources. Interestingly, hyphenated titles appear to evade the rule: Rent-A-Girlfriend, Make-A-Wish Foundation, Rent-A-Center, as if people have to remember to put the hyphen in when they name something so Wikipedia does not deface it! Sabih omar 15:09, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you for finding those. How did you find them? One of them had an RM discussion, but that was in 2009, so relatively long ago in Wikipedia terms. The other two don't seem to be the result of consensus dicsussions. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:45, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

  Re: How did you find them? - Just searched for common phrases. Sabih omar 20:30, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Small text

I suggest removing the use of {{small}} for mentioning the song accompanying artists for improved readability, per MOS:SMALLTEXT and MOS:TEXTSIZE. Is that a typical use in music articles? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:39, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

I see this in many articles, not sure if this is a rule or just became common by usage. Sabih omar 23:28, 4 August 2023 (UTC)