Talk:Tarbula

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PrimalMustelid talk 17:46, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that Saint Tarbula of Persia was martyred by being cut in half by saw after being accused of witchcraft? Source: Dunbar, Agnes B.C. (1901). A Dictionary of Saintly Women. Vol. 2. London: George Bell & Sons, p. 239
  • ALT1: ... that Saint Tarbula of Persia, who was martyred by being cut in half by saw, could have been saved by sleeping with her accusers? Source: "Virgin Martyr Pherbutha (Phermoutha) of Persia, with Her Sister, and Servant". Orthodox Church of America.
  • Reviewed: 1. Template:Did you know nominations/Kirby: King of Comics; 2. Template:Did you know nominations/John Morin Scott (mayor)

Created by Figureskatingfan (talk).

Number of QPQs required: 2. DYK is currently in unreviewed backlog mode and nominator has 50 past nominations.

Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.

Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC).

• Date, size, refs, copyvio, GTG. Needs second QPQ review. Also approving only ALT0, not ALT1, which I find not substantiated by the text, where it is stated she was asked for it, but there is no evidence this happened. A different hook related to this, based on what the text says, might indeed be good in attracting views - ping me if it is proposed and I'll take a look. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 23:37, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Finally gotten around to second QPQ. I'm good with going with ALT0. @Piotrus: pinging as requested. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:16, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Then. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 22:49, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Unreliable sources

I have tagged this article for having unreliable sourcing. For example:

• Dunbar 1901, cited four times, is problematic per WP:OLDSOURCES, WP:PARTISAN and some of WP:SCHOLARSHIP; the author claims no scholarly authority for herself, as noted in the preface, and notes that she has essentially compiled primary sources and Catholic writers. In the case of Tarbula, this is Sozomen (also cited in the article) and a history from the priest John Mason Neale, who in turn also primarily cites Sozomen.
• Sozomen, being a writer from around fifty years after Tarbula's reported death, is clearly a primary source, and a WP:PARTISAN one at that, being heavily prejudiced towards Christianity and against the Persians.
• At least we have a recent source, Jensen 1996. None of her critical analysis on what Tarbula's story says about her society actually makes it into this article, though. Instead, we have uncritical description of the source that describes her: a certain Sozomen.
• And as for this source, it doesn't say what their sources are, or who the author is, or anything that could help us call it reliable.

~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:50, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Many if not most ancient sources can said to be biased and life of lesser known martyrs all carry with them an idealized image as well as a scarcity of sources. Sozomen is the only source we can draw from that is near -contemporary wich makes it the most reliable. Though the source can be approached with a more objective eye and be more clearly reflected in the text. Sfar13 (talk) 08:55, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

@Sfar13, that's a good point. For the past four years and under the auspices of WikiProject Women in Religion, I've become committed to improving the quality of bios of obscure female Christian saints, in order to fill both the gender gap and an important topic gap. One of the things I've learned is this undertaking can be challenging, especially regarding finding sources. (Actually, that's a challenge with most of the articles under the project's auspices.) The solution is to do as Sfar13 suggests and reflect these concerns in the text. Easily done, and something I promise to take care of, at least with Sozomen. Pinging @AirshipJungleman29 to ensure that they see these responses. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:50, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Christine (Figureskatingfan)

I got interested in the topic and thought to flesh out the article and contribute to the wiki. The wiki is free for anyone to contribute and make changes to the articles.

Female Christian saints definitely need more exposure. Sfar13 (talk) 21:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

@Sfar13, great; we always need editors who are committed to working on obscure topics and bios. You should think about joining WikiProject Women in Religion. We have monthly editathons and planning sessions, and we're conducting a few projects that might interest you. All is welcome! Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The ritual execution section

Sfar13 recently added this section; there are some problems with it, as described below.

1st paragraph: Ref10 discusses the so-called ritual, but it doesn't mention St. Tarbula. In other words, the sources makes no connection between Tarbula and the ritual. I suggest that as a result, you remove the sentence.

2nd paragraph: Ref11 does make a connection; however, the footnote on p. 258 states that it's a weak one, that "there is something difficult in accounting for this sentence upon Tarbula and her companions." The source goes on to state that, in the author's opinion, it's "supposedly an allusion" to the ritual of making covenants. There's nothing in the source that states that it was a Jewish ritual, so your statement, IMO, borders on the use of anti-Jewish tropes; please be careful about that. If you find a source that states that it was a Jewish ritual, that's when you can add the assertion. You need to make all this clear in the bio; for example, by wording it this way: "John Sundins Stamp, in his 1849 martyrology, states that the queen's action might have been an allusion to the ancient ritual of making covenants."

You might get the same kind of pushback I've gotten with some of the sources I've used; namely, that's it old. You need to, then, be able to support your use of it. Personally, I think that it's a weak source. Not only is it old, it's a google translation from the Swedish and it's taken from Foxe, which could mean that it plagiarizes Foxe. Some of its claims, like connecting a covenant with Matthew 24:51, are odd. I suggest that if you use it, that you supplement the claims you make from it with other more reliable sources, or that you don't use it all because Stamp's description of Tarbula's martyrdom can be found in better sources. If you use it, you need to cite it better; for example, use the same citation method throughout the bio and state that it's a translation.

3rd paragraph: Ref13 is problematic because the link directs you to an excerpt from the preview, which is incomplete. I avoid using them, unless I have access to the book. It also states the obvious, that martyrdom is a huge deal, which goes without saying, as they say. I suggest that you remove the statement, along with the next one, which isn't even a full sentence and isn't cited.

Sfar13, hopes this helps. I'm not trying to be harsh, but this is the kind of assessment you'd get from other editors, most of whom just want to help you in creating high-quality content on Wikipedia. This is especially important with bios about obscure female saints, since there are so many barriers to doing that. Let me know how I can assist you. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:48, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I see your point. You have been very helpful.

This was not meant to come across as anti-Jewish but rather put it in a context and tying it into a cultural understanding. I have removed it. Sfar13 (talk) 23:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

@Sfar13, No, I understand. We just need to be careful how we present historically antisemitic content here. Thanks for the removal. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:06, 31 May 2024 (UTC)