Talk:Taupo Totara Timber Railway/Archives/2024/July

Requested move 26 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Rough consensus to move to Taupo Totara Timber Railway. Discussions of splits etc can be discussed separately (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 18:43, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

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Mokai Tramway → Taupo Totara Timber Company Railway – The proposed title makes this article easier to find. Many readers will have heard of the "TTT", the tourist town of Taupo, or Lake Taupo. Few people will be familiar with the sawmilling village of Mokai, which today has only a few houses and a marae. The name also distinguishes the main Putaruru to Mokai line from the bush tramways radiating from Mokai. Many of these tramways were accessible only to selected TTT Railway rolling stock. In contrast, all TTT locomotives including the Mallet and the four-wheeled locos were able to run through to Mokai, where the company had its main mechanical workshop. The proposed new title also distinguishes the TTT Railway from the Kinleith Branch, which covered only part of the route and was built on formation that was largely new. (The original TTT formation north of Tokoroa is still visible in some places). I have a large collection of source material on the railway and the company and I hope to add more info and true primary citations as time permits. I will also propose that a separate page be set up covering the TTT company itself Kbwc56 (talk) 00:09, 26 May 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 00:45, 2 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 10:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 21:21, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - it seems the more sensible option would be to split the information on TTT into its own article, much like the Wellington & Manawatu Railway Company and Wellington - Manawatu Line were --LJ Holden 03:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Support: I will create a separate page for the TTT company. Mokai Tramway is not an appropriate title for the railway page. Everyone I interviewed in the South Waikato described it as the "TTT Railway" or "TTT Tramway". The same terminology is used in primary references. Two of the any hundreds of sources. The proposed title, "Taupo Totara Timber Company Railway" meets Wikipedia's guidelines for Recognizability and Naturalness.

"Mokai Tramway" does not. Very few people know that Mokai is even a place. However, plenty of people are interested in the "Taupo Totara Timber Company Railway".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_titles

Some online examples of typical useage:

Waikato Indepedent, 1911 https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/WAIKIN19110822.2.22

NZ Herald, 1922: https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19220908.2.34 Kbwc56 (talk) 03:58, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I have struck the above support to avoid double-counting: closers of RM discussions presume nominators to support their own proposals. I myself support some kind of move. As of this comment, I am still browsing the sources, but a DuckDuckGo query for -wikipedia tramway Taupo Totara Timber yields several NZ encyclopedias and no "Mokai Tramway" in any of them, which seems to rule that out as WP:COMMONNAME and article title. However, I have not seen "Taupo Totara Timber Company Railway", whether upper- or lowercase "r". for example, the sources nom linked above respectively use the projected [as of 1911] Taupo Timber Company's railway line to Taupo and (in the headline only) Taupo Totara Railway. Some descriptive title instead may be needed; am still thinking on this as I review the sources. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 03:25, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Note: ealand Wikipedians' notice board has been notified of this discussion. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 00:45, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I wasn't sure what to do about that. No evidence has been provided supporting "Mokai Tramway". I did some formal analysis as a separate talk topic (TTT Railway Title: Recognizability, below) which I hope will add some value to the article. Kbwc56 (talk) 03:55, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Final relist, to allow additional discussion between the proposed title and Taupo Totara Railway BilledMammal (talk) 21:21, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I would support Taupo Totara Timber Railway, but I oppose "Taupo Totara Railway", and I strongly oppose "Mokai Tramway".

The title must have three "T words".

This makes it clear that this article is about the Taupo Totara Timber Company's Railway. Locals abbreviated that to "TTT Railway". Almost all of the freight cars, and most of locomotives, were sign-written "T.T.T. Co". The Two people who were born and raised in Mokai told local mythology held that "TTT" stood for "Terrible Twisting Tramway" (a reference to the concept of a "contour railway"). Newspaper compositors omitted one of the "T"s to fit stories into their column layouts. So you find stories headed "Taupo Totara Railway, for example. My search analysis on Papers Past showed that "TTT Rsilway" was preferred within the South Waikato district. However, "TTT" seldom appears in newspapers outside of the Waikato, and the company seems to have strictly avoided abbreviating its name in advertisements. Also, I think it's important to note that this railway never ran to the Taupo township. I can provide screeds of evidence supporting a title containing, "Taupo Totara Timber". Kbwc56 (talk) 22:46, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.