Talk:Tax resistance

VAT / Sales tax avoidance

In Legal resistance section, should be mentioned how techniques used to avoid paying VAT / Sales tax, import tariffs ? This is might be original research but: Norwegians shopping in Sweden (avoid tariffs on food imports). Lithuanians shopping for food and petrol in Poland. Food VAT are 21% in Lithuania and 5% for basic items in Poland. Swiss, Denmark residents shopping in Germany. Ordering children's clothing in GB located internet store (0VAT%) vs 21% in LV, LT , 20% in EE. I suspect that similar approach is used USA, by people living close to state boundaries with different sales/excise taxes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlV (talk • contribs) 21:03, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like it could be a worthwhile section, but it would be important, in order to match the topic of the page, to find examples that were motivated by tax resistance and not just avoidance. —Moorlock (talk) 19:11, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Reasons for Reversion of Karmafist's Edit of Dec 28 2005

1. User user:Karmafist deleted "Arab" qualifer from "Palestinian town of [[Beit Sahour]..." The qualifier is necessary to distinguish between Jewish Palestinians, and Arab Palestinians.

2. User user:Karmafist deleted "More recently, some foes of abortion and/or capital punishment have become tax resisters, refusing to pay taxes that are going to support those practices." Clearly, people who resist paying taxes that go towards abortion services are tax resisters. To delete this reference is puzzling and odd.

MSTCrow 23:11, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I would defend those edits on these grounds: 1) "Arab" seems to be an ethnic qualifier and I haven't seen evidence that the tax resistance in Beit Sahour was done only by Arab residents. 2) While people who resist taxes that pay for abortion certainly qualify as tax resisters, there was no citation on this description and I'm not sure any such tax resisters exist except in conjecture. -Moorlock 00:02, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

First, Beit Sahour is an Aran Palestinean town, it's not a pan-Palestinean town. Secondly, while I can't think of any citations per se, it seems to be a well-known occurrence. As such, I'd like to see anyone who can cite that it doesn't take place.

MSTCrow 01:10, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that there are tax resisters who resist because they don't want to pay for abortion or for capital-punishment, but I haven't actually seen evidence of any. Google searches for things like "pro-life tax resist[er][ers][ance]" and "anti-abortion tax resist[er][ers][ance]" turn up nothing. There are some religious tax resisters who mention warfare, capital-punishment and abortion as examples of things that they abhor because of their faith or their pacificism, but I haven't found anyone who has become a tax resister specifically because of government support for abortion or capital punishment. It seems likely that such people exist, but until we have more than this conjecture, maybe we should hold off on wikipediaing it. -Moorlock 01:42, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

As there are no reasonable standing arugments against qualifying the Palestineans in question as of Arab origin, but the existence of pro-life tax protesters has not yet been verified, the article will add that the Palestineans in question are of Arab origin, but refrain from mentioning pro-life tax protesters until which time their existence can be substantiated.

MSTCrow 07:55, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

No arguments for tax resistance

This article is clearly biased. There are no arguments for tax resistance. --Dissipate 05:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• I kind of think the invocation of Jesus and Gandhi as tax resisters speaks for itself there - in any event, please feel free to add the arguments for... bd2412 T 05:19, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

How can quotes count as an argument? I don't get it. --Dissipate 05:23, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• Just saying, the article generally portrays tax resistance as a positive thing, before coming to (relatively unpersuasive) arguments against. bd2412 T 05:54, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps that is the way you see it, but I see it as an article that has a section with 'arguments' (although I wouldn't call those arguments) against but no section for. --Dissipate 05:57, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Telephone excise tax

The article talks about resisting the telephone excise tax, which is part of the phone bill. Underpaying the bill is likely to result in disconnection of service. If this is really done, there should be a reference discussing it, and I see nothing in the refs cited. Robert A.West (Talk) 02:58, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Disconnection of service for failure to pay the excise tax isn't particularly common, and is not legal. -Moorlock 11:51, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that? IIRC, the taxes on services are bundled with the services taxed for purposes of making SNP/DISC decisions. Thus, the payment processing software had no way to distinguish among withholding payment for a particular interstate call, or pro-rata for all such calls, or for the tax. Partial payments are applied to basic services first, then to toll calls, then to optional services, and service cut-offs are done in the reverse order. But, I am relying on memory so I will yield to an actual source. Robert A.West (Talk) 21:26, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

My understanding of the law is that the phone company is the middleman for an obligation of the taxpayer to the IRS and that if the taxpayer refuses to pay the IRS, the phone company is legally obligated to report this refusal to the IRS, but because the taxpayer is not in arrears to the phone company but to the IRS, it has no cause to cut off service. Phone tax resisters have successfully explained this to phone companies using legal chapter-and-verse in order to have the tax removed from their phone bills (though as you suggest, the payment processing software is typically not set up to do this automatically). The hanguponwar.org site has more info. -Moorlock 22:03, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

While 26 CFR 49.4291-1 is not the most perspicuously worded reg I have read, it looks to me like the carrier could choose to deem that the tax is partly collected under the alternate accounting method, in which case the carrier is partly out of pocket and the IRS is partly out of pocket. The only reason to do this would be that it might be cheaper than the manual handling needed otherwise. Of course, the forgoing is OR. What matters is not my opinion abou the law, nor yours, which is why I would like to see a quality source for this topic, not a tax protester site. I wonder if the industry press has covered this? Robert A.West (Talk) 22:43, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I reworded to make it clear that our source is an advocacy website. Robert A.West (Talk) 23:16, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't claim to be an expert on this tax law, but I do know that back when I had a phone in my name a few years ago, I stopped paying the excise tax, the phone company initially interpreted this as a simple underpayment. I wrote to them with the explanation that I had stopped paying the excise tax and why I thought the legal situation was as is described on the hanguponwar.org site. The company (S.B.C., formerly PacBell, now AT&T) erased the amount-due from my bill and stopped charging me the excise tax. -Moorlock 23:30, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

An interesting anecdote, but unfortunately it does not count as a source here. How many collection efforts have there been? How vigorously have they been pursued? Have any companies refused to honor such a request and just cut off service? If so, have they been reversed by PUC or IRS action? For example, prior to 2004, there was no deadline for reporting the refusal to the IRS, but since 2004 the phone company has had to report the refusal promptly, and failure to do so may result in the IRS's deeming that the company collected and must remit the tax. Has this changed anything? These are the things that independent sources might tell us, but advocates won't. Robert A.West (Talk) 05:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I provided a source that included citations of the law and first-hand accounts of people who have directly interacted with multiple phone companies. That's not too shabby as wikipedia sources go. You want more than that, 'you look it up. Jeebus. -Moorlock 06:33, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

As advocacy, the site fails WP:RS and is marginal as a source at best. You want the material in, the burden of evidence is on you to provide a reliable source. Robert A.West (Talk) 06:38, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Robert A.West (Talk) 18:40, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Redudant Links?

First, I apologize for not noticing I was not signed in when added links and other info. Have made a note on the user page. User:208.59.123.46

Anyway, added two links to NWTRCC and Peace Tax Fund at bottom because didn't notice they were in the top right box. Sorry, box must have looked like an advert. Also added a description of Peace Tax Fund which was not on the page at the time. User:Carolmooredc Carol Moore 15:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Tax resistance → Tax resistance in the United States This article deals almost exclusively about this phenomenon in the United States. Please discuss at Talk:Tax protester#Requested move. —  AjaxSmack  06:31, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Manifesto as External Link

There is explicit mentioning of tax resistance in the outstanding international "Manifesto against conscription and the military system" (with an updated list of all signatories from 1993 to 2007), official websites http://home.snafu.de/mkgandhi/manifest.htm - http://www.themanifesto.info - why not adding it? Chrbartolf 12:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC)Chrbartolf

Tax Slavery

Tax Slavery is the absolute legal ownership of the ruler over a person's labor or income.

It describes a system in which a person's property rights are subordinated to the decisions or laws of the ruling class. It is a concept originating in the last days of the Roman Empire, when the jurisprudential concept of property of Ulpian, Mucius Scaevola et al. was substituted by the concept of property as a privilege, subject to revocation by edict of the emperor or his representatives.

Diocletian's institution of the death penalty for those that defied imperial price controls on oil and cloth were decried by Lactantius as slavery, since what differentiated a paterfamilias from a servant was his control over property. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Flix2000 (talk • contribs) 17:43, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

Notable Tax Resisters

A section like this could go on and on as people add their favorites. I've replaced it with a link to the Category:Tax resisters page for now, but maybe it could be replaced by short summaries of a few particularly prominent resisters. -Moorlock 16:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Definition and origins

Tax protester does a good job of defining what a tax protester is and shows that it is not a result of original research. This article should do the same; it should reference Blacks Law Dictionary or some peer-reviewed academic article in the opening line of this article.EECavazos (talk) 20:13, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Tax resistance arguments versus tax protester arguments

Dear editors: The following were added to the article by another editor as being examples of arguments in favor of tax resistance:

There is no way to file a tax return without voluntarily waiving one's Fifth Amendment right not to be compelled to bear witness against oneself. (all information given to the IRS is done so voluntarily and they may use any or all information within your return against you in a court of law)

There is no statute in the Internal Revenue Code that makes any American in the private sector liable to pay income tax. (citing Why No One Is Required to File Tax Returns and What You Can Do About It by Bill Conklin).

I removed the verbiage, but I want to explain why. These are really, strictly speaking, Tax protester arguments, not tax resistance arguments. That is, these are legally incorrect, legally frivolous statements. This kind of material is already covered in the Wikipedia articles on tax protesters.

By contrast, tax resistance arguments seem to relate more to overall ideology or policy arguments by those who resist taxes.

See the distinction in the first two paragraphs of this article -- regarding the difference between tax protesters and tax resisters.

Also, this article is on tax resistance in general, and is not limited to the United States – while the two tax protester arguments that I removed really relate specifically and only to frivolous litigation involving the U.S. federal income tax.

By the way, Bill Conklin is well-known as a tax protester among people who study this kind of thing in depth.

And, just for the record, while it is indeed correct to say that "all information given to the IRS is done so voluntarily and they [the IRS] may use any or all information within your return against you in a court of law", it is blatantly incorrect to say that there is "no way to file a tax return without voluntarily waiving one's Fifth Amendment right not to be compelled to bear witness against oneself." Indeed, there is a very specific rule under something called the Garner Doctrine about how to file a U.S. federal income tax return, fully reporting all income that should be included, and yet without waiving one's Fifth Amendment right not to be compelled, etc. In fact, it's very easy to do, if you have a good tax lawyer or CPA advising you. Yours, Famspear (talk) 18:29, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Tax resistance Survey

What government evil would it take for you to stop paying taxes in disgust?

1. Govt. take your money and uses it to lock up innocent people.

2. The govt. uses your money to lock up black people.

3. The govt. uses your money to murder brown people.

4. the govt. gives your tax money to their friends.

5. the govt. wastes your money on something stupid, or maybe just burns it.

6. the govt. spend your money on propaganda for higher taxes.

7. The govt. spends your money on brainwashing babies to torture puppies.

8. The govt. spends your money on researching about how the money really belongs to them.

9. The govt. "invests" your money in a ponzi scheme.

10. What taxes? I don't pay any taxes!

11. I own a bank, the govt. pays ME taxes.

12. The govt. can do no evil, by definition all it does is good.

13. I'm too scared not to obey, the govt. has the biggest guns.

14. I can't help it, they are in cahoots with my employer and withold it.

15. I work for the govt. Taxes are the price you pay for civilization.

16. Didn't Jesus say I always had to pay taxes?

17. I'll keep paying, but vote for whoever promises to do less evil.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.199.122.25 (talk • contribs) on 10 November 2008.

Actually, this probably does not belong on the talk page; another editor might remove it. The purpose of this talk page is to discuss ways to improve the article, not to discuss the evils or benefits of taxation, etc., etc. Famspear (talk) 15:37, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Tax resistance to abortion

I remember reading a story about a man in New Brunwick who had refused to pay taxes because of his political beliefs against abortion, which is publicly funded in many parts of the world. There could maybe additional information about such cases, where political activists refuse to pay taxes not because they don't agree with the idea of taxes, but because they are opposed to certain controversial government programs that involve terminating unwanted members of society, like fetuses or embryos, handicapped people and elderly people. ADM (talk) 23:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Tax revolt

Shouldn't Tax revolt be merged into Tax Resistance? AshcroftIleum (talk) 02:03, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I have proposed a merger to History of tax resistance. Nirvana2013 (talk) 15:30, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Funny how irony works

Taxes are illegal and -the gov- says its illegal to evade? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.131.141.255 (talk) 21:05, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

War Tax Resistance and Tax Resistance

At the moment the article mixes war Tax Resistance and general Tax Resistance together throughout the article. Maybe it would be better to have section on War Tax Resistance. Jonpatterns (talk) 22:25, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

The Brazil vs South Korea 1960 example

Haven't got any sources, read this around 1990. A major comparance had been made between Brazil and South Korea. The nations were on the same level of development in 1960, both countries had a low level of democracy and edjucation. But one factor separated them. Taxes in general. While Brazil was and continued to be a low tax country, South Korea constituted its opposite in this specific matter. 25 Years later, around 1985, had South Korea better national finances (dispite far less natural resources) , next to zero unemployment figures, no ghettos with armed youths, in all common parameters South Korea had come far ahead of Brazil. Also the beginning of South Korean engeneering had started to become obvious etc. Helthcare and higher edjucation was available for everyone. In every comparacy South Korea had surpassed Brazil and they had done so by the use of progressive taxation, introduction of VAT and special taxes on certain products. I can't recall any figures but South Korea was concidered an example of "high tax" country and Brazil the opposite. Only the top 0,1 % (or so) richest people had much more money in Brazil. If a country is supposed to do the best for each and everyone, extreme low taxation appear to be the wrong way to achieve this goal, I remember I thought. To that I can add that the country I live in was known for extremely high taxation some 40 years ago, but the society worked fine. Today the taxes are much lower, but the general problems has increased. And only very few has benefitted from the lower taxes. There are of cource other parameters than taxes only, however they appear to be essential everywhere. Boeing720 (talk) 22:45, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Mish-mash

What does this article really cover ? The history of people that for different reasons objected to pay taxes, like Gahndi. (Who didn't want to pay taxes to the colonial occupants) Or is it about a political belief, intended for modern and developed nations ? The latter is (if a such -"ism" grows) directly harmful for its society, and if ever introduced, some kind of anarchy would replace the modern and developed state. Nobody likes to pay taxes, but everyone would like their children to get education, don't they ? And is the police not needed anylonger ? Boeing720 (talk) 03:58, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

This page (and the main page) aren't a forum for discussing the merits of taxation or tax resistance. -Moorlock (talk) 05:45, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

But please. I asked what the article is supposed to cover (or not cover). Don't use WP:guidlines when almost the entire article isn't up to standard. Boeing720 (talk) 09:07, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

The article is about the practice of refusing to pay taxes as a tactic of political struggle or in conscientious objection to the taxing authority's policies. It isn't about any particular "-ism" but about a practice or tactic that has been used by people with a variety of beliefs, similar to the Boycott page. -Moorlock (talk) 17:45, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Definitions of Tax resistor/ Tax protester

Discussion on tax protester talkpage.Jonpatterns (talk) 09:49, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Tax resistance/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

== WP Tax Class == Start class because this article needs references.EECavazos (talk) 20:14, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 20:14, 17 November 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 07:40, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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