Talk:Taylor Ferry, Oklahoma

"Cherokee Nation" category

User:Montenois has been adding Category:Cherokee Nation to many settlements in large geographic area which are within the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma. In some instances, such as this article, there is no sourced content within the article to warrant the addition, per WP:CATV. While subdivisions such as "county" and "state" are obvious, the specific authority of the Cherokee Nation over Taylor Creek is not so clear. The input of other would is welcome. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:44, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

The official boundaries of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma are clearly delimited. They are not disputed by anyone. The precise location of these boundaries can be easily ascertained with the help of a number of resources. To name just a few: Google Maps [1] or ACME Mapper [2]. There is no doubt whatsoever that Taylor Ferry lies within the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation. Montenois (talk) 11:35, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

By the way, here is a CNN article about Google Maps and the Cherokee Nation: [3]. Montenois (talk) 11:42, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

The article references this U.S. Supreme Court ruling: McGirt v. Oklahoma. Montenois (talk) 11:51, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Here is a Tulsa World article with a map showing how the territory of the city of Tulsa is divided between the Muscogee Nation, the Cherokee Nation and the Osage Nation: [4]. Montenois (talk) 12:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

@Montenois: Again, there is no sourced content within this article to warrant the addition of the category "Cherokee Nation", per WP:CATV. There is no mention of the Cherokee Nation at GNIS, and being within the boundaries of something on a map does not on its own merit category inclusion. What specific jurisdiction does the Cherokee Nation have over Taylor Ferry? Magnolia677 (talk) 12:40, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Taylor Ferry is part of the legally defined territory of the Cherokee Nation. This is an undisputed and provable fact. See above. Montenois (talk) 12:48, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

To quote the CNN article above: "“After the monumental US Supreme Court ruling in McGirt v Oklahoma, we’ve had many questions about our reservation boundaries, which always existed on paper maps,” said Cherokee Nation Principal Chief Chuck Hoskin Jr. in a Tuesday statement.

He was referencing the landmark July 2020 case in which the court upheld that lands promised to the Creek Nation remained an Indian reservation. “Now that our reservation is labeled on Google Maps, it’s easy for people around the world to search and see our reservation boundaries.”" Montenois (talk) 12:53, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

@Montenois: Being a federally-recognized place on a map does not necessary merit category inclusion. Cisco Grove, California, is located within Tahoe National Forest, but this does not mean Category:Tahoe National Forest should be added to every Wikipedia article located within the forest's boundaries. The Wagoner County website makes no mention of the Cherokee Nation. The elected officials don't appear to have any connection to the Cherokee Nation, nor does the Sheriff Office. The county website makes no mention of the Cherokee Nation where Taylor Ferry is listed. Again, what official jourisdiction does the Cherokee Nation hold over Taylor Ferry? Magnolia677 (talk) 13:20, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Well @Magnolia677, the Cherokee Nation has criminal jurisdiction over all "Indians" in the city. So they prosecute some crimes and the Cherokee Marshalls (police) can patrol there. They also can have treatment as states status and implement certain federal regulations similar to how a state government or the federal government would. I mean there is a whole field called Federal Indian law devoted to how complicated the question your asking is. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 16:21, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

@TulsaPoliticsFan: What city? Magnolia677 (talk) 16:29, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

@Magnolia677, their jurisdiction is based on the reservation. So on this talk page, I meant Taylor Ferry, but it's also generally true for any place within the reservation borders. Also, to be clear, I am not sure mass adding every city within the reservation to the Category:Cherokee Nation is a good idea. Maybe Category:Cities within the Cherokee Nation reservation would be better since there are so many of them.

Also, is there a policy somewhere on adding location categories based on map sources? I'm genuinely asking because if it's against policy your right and we should wait for better sourcing. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 16:58, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

To be frank, I would have expected you to know that counties are not subdivisions of Indian reservations. I thought it was common knowledge that a county (in this case, Wagoner County) is a subdivision of a state (in this case, Oklahoma). In some cases, a county lies totally within the territory of an Indian reservation, in other cases only partially. Wagoner County, for instance, lies partially within the Muscogee (Creek) Nation and partially within the Cherokee Nation. As a county is not as such part of the administration of the Indian reservation(s) its territory overlaps with, nobody expects it to make a reference to Indian reservations on its official webpage. The county administration is not as such subordinated to the Indian reservation(s) in question and those Indian reservations, in turn, are not as such subordinated to the county administration. When we talk about counties and Indian reservations coexisting and overlapping with each other in the same area, we are talking about parallel jurisdictions. In the case of Wagoner County, which overlaps with the territory of two Indian reservations, some legal cases are handled by the county and some by the courts of the Muscogee (Creek) Nation or the Cherokee Nation, depending on the case. You also mentioned Cisco Grove and Tahoe National Forest. Actually, I do think it would be warranted to include that locality in that category, if it actually is situated within Tahoe National Forest (which I have no reason to doubt). I see no particular reason to exlude it. However, you cannot reasonably compare a national forest with an Indian reservation. A national forest is a plot of federally owned land managed by the U.S. Forest Service for conservation purposes. It is not a political entity and does not have elected officials or judges, which counties and Indian reservations do. This is why counties and Indian reservations are quite comparable to each other: two overlapping and parallel systems of administration and jurisdiction. Montenois (talk) 14:44, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I have provide links showing that Wagoner County has specific governmental and law enforcement jurisdiction over Taylor Ferry. Please provide sources which outline the specific powers the Cherokee Nation has over Taylor Ferry. I am requesting this, because the boundaries appear mostly ceremonial, and many of the communities within the Cherokee Nation have no connection to it. Magnolia677 (talk) 14:58, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Magnolia677. We should not be adding the Cherokee Nation category to articles that don't even mention the Cherokee Nation and don't have some extant culture connection to it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:33, 12 August 2023 (UTC)