Talk:Teenage pregnancy/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Big question

• Look, i've had alot on my mind from 11/29 - today, so i'll cut to the chase:

-What are the odds of a teen in America at age 16-18 dying from childbirth? -Is it possible for an abortion 9 months into pregnancy? -Is is likely that a teen who is pregnant won't be able to finish high school and will miss out on college and career goal opportunities? -Why do teen girls get pregnant in the first place?

I've had a crush on this girl in my class, until she told me that she had a boyfriend. A few days later, I found out she was pregnant. I had no idea at all. I'm seriously worried about her. I'm sitting up in my room everyday thinking about her. I have never known for 4yrs to get into this kind of situation. She seemed like a normal-mannered girl. People are telling me to forget about her, but I can't! She's too important to me to forget about. No one, not even my own family understands what i'm going through. There is not one person I feel I can talk to seriously about this whole mess. This whole thing really screwed me over big-time. Even the thought of death popped into my head. --Kid Sonic (talk) 19:55, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a Q&A forum for these types of concerns but rather a page to discuss the Teen Pregnancy wiki article; you should visit a relevant forum such as this one. Nonetheless, you asked:

1)What are the odds of a teen in America at age 16-18 dying from childbirth?---I haven't come across any information about maternal death (death while giving birth) specifically for this age group but overall the mortality rateis low in the USA. 2) Is it possible for an abortion 9 months into pregnancy?...Maybe. This would be a late-term abortion and are restricted by law. 3)Is is likely that a teen who is pregnant won't be able to finish high school and will miss out on college and career goal opportunities?...Of course it depends on the individual and her specific circumstances but it's not usual for pregnant teens to drop out of school and not attain a diploma. 4) Why do teen girls get pregnant in the first place?...Many reasons. Some reasons are discussed in the Teen Pregnancy article. You can also read here, here or here for some other perspectives. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.20.204.92 (talk) 14:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

question

if say a girl of thirteen becomes pregnant, can the parents or gaurdian ask for abortion without consent of the girl? or does the mother have to give consent, even if it is a love child? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.220.102.253 (talk) 15:23, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

first and foremost, Is the parent or guardian aware in the situation in which abortion is a sin of God and at the same time it is against the law? But since the question has been brought out, the parent or the gaurdain of the child can be responsible for this problem so it would be their decision not the child. Secondly, weather the parents give the conscent or not, the child dont have any idea on what would be the problem that the child would be encountering in the near future, she is incapacitated/unequiped on the situation. Finally, the parent or the gaurdian of the child should have full supervision of thier love ones, in the first place, the pregnancy would not take place if the parent is responsible enough to take care of her.vahn_dinio (talk) 11:45, 01 August 2008 (UTC)

I suppose it could depend on the country but I imagine the mother's consent is always needed by law, of course, people could break those laws. Again, I'm not entirely sure but I imagine the mothers consent is always legally needed - Schrandit (talk) 12:29, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

It depends on the country. If a teenager woman (that is under legal age) does not want to undergo abortion - but her parents want her to get one, they can seek a judge's intervention. It also works in the other direction: if a teenager seeks abortion, but her parents deny her the option, she can ask for the intervention of a judge. In most cases though, a doctor would abstain if the situation is not clear. 64.56.227.226 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 00:09, 17 February 2009 (UTC).

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

• "makinson" :
  • Makinson, C. (1985). [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2431924&query_hl=21&itool=pubmed_docsum The health consequences of teenage fertility]. ''Family Planning Perspectives, 17 (3)'', 132-9. Retrieved [[May 29]], [[2006]].
  • Makinson, C. (1985). [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi fuckcmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2431924&query_hl=21&itool=pubmed_docsum The health consequences of teenage fertility]. ''Family Planning Perspectives, 17 (3)'', 132-9. Retrieved [[May 29]], [[2006]].

DumZiBoT (talk) 23:21, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Limiting teenage pregnancies

In the third paragraph it says: "The teenage pregnancy strategy has had mixed success. Although teenage pregnancies have fallen overall, they have not fallen consistently in every region, and in some areas they have increased." So, rising pregnancy rates are considered a failure of the strategy. But there is no proof for that assertion to be true. Without the 'strategy' pregnancy rates might have risen even more... --82.83.70.148 (talk) 22:35, 22 January 2009 (UTC) Most children who are spoken to at a early age about sex and informed about the risk of having sex by someone they highly respect or love, like a parent are more likely to wait to have sex.(Crtny sctt (talk) 15:39, 12 November 2009 (UTC))

Bias against teen pregnancy

According to James May's 20th Century 24 - Episode 5 - Inventing The Teenager [1] he say's "In 1900, there were... no teenagers." Shouldn't this be noted or discussed as the term is pretty recent? Faro0485 (talk) 12:24, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Bug causing problems with the flag table

There seems to be some kind of bug that causes the flags of Slovenia and the US not to show up properly in the table on the right of this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.226.140.193 (talk) 10:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Support for teenage pregnancy

I think many pro-abstinence, anti-contraception and anti-abortion groups actually support teenage pregnancy because they see it as a better moral alternative to the contemporary tendency of encouraging more abortions. This should probably be mentioned somewhere, since it is part of the natalist ideology, in which all pregnancies are thought to be an inherently good thing. The Catholic Church has for example expressed support for crisis pregnancy centers, but only if they do not distribute contraceptive material. There is also another interesting view that suggests that the concept of teenage pregnancy is a social construct, since the concept of teenagers was not really recognized in sociology until the 1940s. ADM (talk) 16:04, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Teenage fatherhood

"In the U.S, eight out of ten teenage fathers do not marry their child's mother." I think you should add this: "mostly because they can't afford marriage or children; also because they must finish high school and many plan to attend college which is very expensive." (The wage is always the problem.) Stars4change (talk) 05:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

That is not going to work out unless you find a source for it. Besides that, both genders go to high school and college. 75.4.249.17 (talk) 00:02, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

That is true, however, a teenage pregnancy can severely disrupt this process and since we are living in a patriarchal culture, it is often the mothers who get 'stuck' with the child, leaving little time for studies. This can, of course, be, in part, attributed to the face that the female body has a superior adeptness when it come to caring for, and especially feeding an infant child. I'm talking about breasts here in case someone is confused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.226.140.193 (talk) 23:38, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The female has just as much choice about the kid as the father does. the female had to lay their and take it just like the male had to give it to her. If a girl is raped then she had a choice of either laying there and cring or fight them all the way. Three out of every eight teen fathers dont know about the female being pregnant. four out of every ten males that dont have a kid would take care of the mother and the kid. Just because some of the teenage fathers dont take care of their kids doesn't mean that none of them do. The ones that do love their kids to death and would do anything for that child. The mother isn't "stuck" with the child because they could adopt off the child if it really interfered with their life like your saying they do.User:Fatherofnew01 —Preceding undated comment added 19:18, 27 January 2010 (UTC).

Opening paragraph

{{help me}}. Someone has written "Teenage pregnancy is defined as Sabrina Graves in her prime" as the opening sentence. Is this a smear? Or an obscure cultural reference? Should this be deleted? I'm hoping some more experienced editor can help here. Thanks. Cckessle (talk) 16:36, 4 March 2010 (UTC)cckessle

It was vandalism, and I have reverted it.   — Jeff G. ツ 16:43, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

First Picture Caption

The caption says "This is what teens do before the female teen pregnant, Leonardo da Vinci." I'm pretty sure that's vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.218.7 (talk) 21:41, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

What's with the table?

What's with the table in the socioeconomic factors section? It shows teen pregnancy rates in only two counties, and those two counties are in the same state. Additionally, the statistics for Tulare County are divided into "Caucasians" and "Hispanics", while the statistics for Marin County apparently cover all races. Another issue with the table is that the Tulare County statistics only cover two major races. What about Asian-Americans, African-Americans, Native Americans, etc.? I think we should either get more statistics or scrap the table, because the table isn't really used to make a point, just to illustrate three rates that aren't really significant to the big picture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.101.155.113 (talk) 22:31, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Media section

I just removed a recently added bit because it has NPOV problems. It does, however, have some references that could be useful if others wish to rewrite it. 69.181.249.92 (talk) 21:20, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

It is important to understand the importance of the media on teen sexual activity. Teens today have a wide access to technological advances allowing them to see a wide variety of media in a number of forms. They can see and hear various forms of sexual activity on television, computers music videos, and the internet. They utilize these sources to rely on information about sex. They also rely on their peers. Neither is a very credible and reliable source, so they lack the requisite knowledge to make an informed decision.

According to Farrar, Kunkel, Biely, Eyal, Fandrich, & Donnerstein, prime time shows with some sexual content show an average of 6.1 sex scenes per hour . In addition, about "twenty three percent of the shows that teenagers watch talk about or engage in sex" . It is clear the media does display sexual images that teens do view. Those seuxal images show individuals engaging in sex with no repurcussions. Teens then emulate that behavior without regard to what will happen. This is in line with social cognitive theory by Bandura which states that individuals:

a) imitate what they see

b) likely to repeat what they see

c) copy behavior of people they can relate to

Teens see people on television having sex without any cares. They then imitate what they see not knowing the full ramifications of what that will mean. Few adults are discussing the harsh realities of sex, so it's no wonder teens turn to their peers and the media for guidance and direction on sex. The problem is that "repeatedly seeing unprotected sex molds behavior and misleads adolescents into believing these bahaviors are socially adopted behaviors" . There is a clear correlation between teens watching television and their sexual behavior. Hannah Montana would be a perfect example. Many teens watch Miley Cyrus who has exhibited questionable behavior, yet she is idolized. Teens do not have the capacity to judge what is acceptable behavior.'

Inclusion of Israel

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12653047

Is this useful for Israel's inclusion to the list? G.R. Allison (talk) 00:34, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

the South Park bit

It may just be me, but SP does not actually make much fun of teenage pregnancy issue. Both Simpsons and Family Guy make loads of fun about it. Why that difference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.220.173 (talk) 21:43, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Another column

I was looking at the table that shows birth and abortion rates, and I was thinking that it was missing something. The column showing combined rates was helpful, but what I was wondering about was the ratio, not the sum. Would anyone see a problem with adding another column with the percentage of pregnancies aborted? Dylan Flaherty (talk) 02:22, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

List of famous teenage parents

What possible good purpose does this section serve? Why shouldn't we remove it immediately? Dylan Flaherty (talk) 23:32, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

I suppose it was there to help cover the pop culture aspect. We have other social topics with famous examples. Didn't really see the problem with it, as long as it stayed sourced and did not become too big. Perhaps...it would be okay to have a section on this but in prose, without a long list? Flyer22 (talk) 18:13, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

New Statistics

I am interested in adding more information into the us statistics column. There is some information that was left out. My source is The March of Dimes; is that a legitimate medical source? http://www.marchofdimes.com/Professionals/medicalresources_teenpregnancy.html About 3 in 10 teenage girls become pregnant at least once before age 20. About 1 in 4 teen mothers under age 18 have a second baby within 2 years after the birth of their first baby. Mlandi11 (talk) 15:09, 30 November 2010 (UTC)mlandi11

That would normally be considered a reliable source, yes.—Kww(talk) 15:13, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that the section dedicated to US-only statistics is at all appropriate, and I have removed it. This is not "Teenage pregnancy in my own country"; it's "Teenage pregnancy in the entire world". Putting in a long FAQ-like list of factoids unbalances the article.

Also, the statistics were a copy-and-paste WP:Copyright violation, which is illegal. When people add things to Wikipedia, they have to write in their own words. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:03, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Myth of the falling age at puberty

There's been some decent work done recently to de-bunk this idea that obesity leads to puberty at younger ages. It appears that the real answer is that obesity leads to sloppy clinicians mistaking fat on the chest (lipomastia) for true pubescent changes. The age of menarche (much less susceptible to clinical errors, and much more relevant for pregnancy) has been steady. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:52, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Apparently I have been unclear. Please pretend that the above paragraph begins with "The reason I removed the word "weight" from the lead, and would appreciate it if no one returned in, is:" WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:34, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Interesting argument. I do feel like it is relevant if it is developed a bit more. The idea that obesity leads to insecurity and vulnerability may help you with that.TJones87 (talk) 08:08, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

The psychosocial effects of obesity depend heavily on the person's culture. In some cultures, being obese is desirable, because only wealthy people can afford enough food. See this, for example. In such places, being obese would lead not lead to the negative emotions you ascribe to it (if, indeed, obesity actually leads to these feelings anywhere, rather than being the natural consequence of excessive emotional eating). WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:26, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I've never heard/read it being called a myth that obesity leads to puberty at early ages. There are reliable medical sources confirming that high-fat diets or obesity leads to precocious puberty (or technically "early puberty"), usually in the case of girls. I haven't seen many sources attributing early puberty in boys to high-fat diets or obesity. I have also never read/heard that it is a myth that people are entering puberty at younger and younger ages as generations progress. Plenty of reliable medical sources state that/show that people are entering puberty earlier than people usually did in previous generations. Flyer22 (talk) 23:46, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

See PMC 1719038/PMID 11806872 (free full text). The "secular trend" (falling age of puberty) stopped four decades ago in the developed world. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:11, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

That's one source, WhatamIdoing, versus many sources that state that puberty is continuing to happen earlier and earlier as generations progress. Maybe it's not happening every generation, but I find it difficult to believe that the medical community is so behind that they would still be reporting on the "falling age of puberty" as though it is still happening when it isn't. I also find it difficult to believe that it isn't happening when so many girls are now entering puberty at age 8 or 9, and even at age 7. In fact, puberty at age 9 is now common for girls. Contrast that to when it was considered "abnormal" four decades ago. Still, you may have a point, since most sources seem to report the typical age for onset of puberty as age 10 for girls, and age 12 for boys. In the 80s, it was usually reported as 10 for girls, and 12 for boys as well. That obviously hasn't changed much in the few decades since, except now the common age may be 9 for girls and 11 for boys. Maybe when some medical sources report on "the falling age," they are referring to the past. Because other sources surely aren't. Anyway, my main point was that "the falling age of puberty" was never a myth. 13 used to be "the it age" for puberty; that is not so much the case now.

Moving on... This discussion has mainly been about whether or not weight leads to puberty at earlier ages. Indeed, reliable medical sources state that it does, specifically in the case of girls. See Earlier Onset of Puberty in Girls: Relation to Increased Body Mass Index and Race (alternate PubMed source). It's conclusion?

The results are consistent with obesity's being an important contributing factor to the earlier onset of puberty in girls. Factors other than obesity, however, perhaps genetic and/or environmental ones, are needed to explain the higher prevalence of early puberty in black versus white girls.

So, again, I do not understand your concerns with the mention of weight leading to early puberty. It's not a matter of "sloppy clinicians mistaking fat on the chest (lipomastia) for true pubescent changes." It's a matter of elaborate studies. There being "some decent work done recently to de-bunk this idea that obesity leads to puberty at younger ages" is not sufficient enough to combat the many sources that state that it does lead to early puberty/and or to remove any information about it. Flyer22 (talk) 17:21, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

We have this review Kaplowitz, P (2006 Oct). "Pubertal development in girls: secular trends.". Current opinion in obstetrics & gynecology 18 (5): 487-91. PMID 16932041. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:25, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Hey, James. You're backing up my statements, right? The Recent Findings section of the source you cited pretty much says the same thing I stated above...but in less words. Flyer22 (talk) 23:37, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

It is a high quality recent source that says their has been a small decrease in some areas which they feel is partly due to obesity. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:22, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Which Government?

The Contraception section speaks of a government and statistics but does not state which country, province or state it is talking about. This should be corrected because it is confusing for readers. 72.172.171.178 (talk) 17:41, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Definition

I wondered about this change to the definition ever since it was made by WhatamIdoing. And some IPs have tried to change the new definition at times, as seen in this link. In both of those new versions (which I don't really see as that different than each other, and am confused as to why WhatamIdoing reverted, despite the explanation) teenage pregnancy is defined as the female conceiving before her 20th birthday. Basically, I'm wondering how accurate it is to define teenage pregnancy that way. I mean, a woman who becomes pregnant at age 19 is still considered a teenage pregnancy even when it is known that she will have the baby at age 20 instead. Maybe the second line -- In everyday speech, the speaker is usually referring to unmarried minors who become pregnant unintentionally. -- already takes care of this aspect of the definition? Flyer22 (talk) 12:29, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, you'd think that was the definition, but it turns out that common sense is irrelevant.

Note that the November definition you link above is wrong, as it doesn't take into account pregnancies that end in any way other than birth. I corrected it in December. I spent two hours looking at sources that day, and they all used the date of the pregnancy's end, not the estimated date of conception (except for some—not all—research on abortions, which I didn't see, but whose deviation from the research community's norms was called out by one source as being unusual).

I found no good, clean, clear, authoritative source that laid down a widely accepted definition/declared that everyone must use this definition. Instead, this is the definition that is actually used in every medical journal article that I could lay my hands on, including (importantly) the sources that are the origin of all the statistics that we cite in this article. So the woman who conceives when she's 19 and gives birth at age 20 is not a teenage pregnancy in any of the government statistics, no matter what her neighbors might say.

(Also, whether the pregnant teens are recorded as being married always depends on whether they're married at the time of birth, not at the time of conception—again, no matter what their neighbors might say.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:51, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I see. Thanks for explaining. I was having a dumb moment yesterday when I made this section, confusing the word "conceive" with the word "birth." Which is very bad, considering I have corrected plenty of people in the past on that. As for the definition, since it's not the definition that is used in common speech, why don't we simply add a qualifier to the definition? By that, I mean change it to something like "In the medical and government statistical fields, a teenage pregnancy is defined as a pregnancy in a young woman who has not reached her 20th birthday when the pregnancy ends, regardless of whether the woman is married or is legally an adult (age 14 to 21, depending on the country)." That way, people will know which definition we are talking about, and the lead doesn't have to automatically speak as the authoritative or common use definition. After that, we could go into the the common use definition. I'm just throwing out ideas here, because the Pedophilia, Sexual intercourse and Vegetarianism articles, as well as many other Wikipedia articles have had to go through sort of the same things regarding their leads. For the Pedophilia article, we put the authoritative/correct definition first -- which is the sexual preference for prepubescent children. But because a few editors complained about the common use definition (a sexual attraction to anything under 18) having so little weight in the article, we altered the lead-in to begin with "As a medical diagnosis" (and altered a few other parts of the lead and overall article as well, no matter how much the common use definition, which includes child sexual abusers, is viewed as problematic by most researchers). For the Sexual intercourse article, since sexual intercourse is commonly defined/viewed as vaginal sex (penis in vagina) by dictionaries, encyclopedias, and the general society, before any other aspect of the definition, I put that definition first with the qualifier "commonly refers to." The penis-vagina definition coming first has also been agreed on time and time again at the talk page (it was already first before my alterations to the lead). Not to mention Copulation and Coitus, which are both about penis-vagina, also redirect there. And, finally, for the Vegetarianism article, we had to put the authoritative definition first for that as well, since the common use definition (pescetarianism being the main thing) is considered an invalid vegetarian diet by most vegetarians and vegetarian groups. We tackle the common use definition last on that.

So, basically, we could have a "some definitions say this" type of thing for the Teenage pregnancy article if you and others want. But if you'd rather leave the lead as is, I have no strong feelings about that. Flyer22 (talk) 12:58, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I figured that "formally defined" was sufficient, as few people will think the neighborhood gossip was a formal definition, and it's more concise.

If, BTW, you ever happen to run across it, I'd really like to get some good stats from 50–100 years ago into this article. I think some of our readers (or at least some of our least experienced editors) are so indoctrinated into the idea that "teenage motherhood" only happens to really screwed up women that they don't realize that it was normal and expected until the 1980s. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:05, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Refs needed

==Society and culture==

Teenage pregnancy has been used as a theme or plot device in fiction, including books, films, and television series. The setting may be historical (The Blue Lagoon, Hope and Glory) or contemporary (One Tree Hill). While the subject is generally treated in a serious manner (Junk), it can sometimes play up to stereotypes in a comic manner (Vicky Pollard in Little Britain).

The pregnancy itself may be the result of sexual abuse (Rose in The Cider House Rules), a one-night stand (Amy Barnes in Hollyoaks), a romantic relationship (Demi Miller in EastEnders); (Ronnie Mitchell in EastEnders); or a first time sexual encounter (Sarah-Louise Platt in Coronation Street) unusually, in Quinceañera, the central character becomes pregnant through non-penetrative sex. The drama often focuses around the discovery of the pregnancy and the decision to opt for abortion (Fast Times at Ridgemont High), adoption (Mom at Sixteen, Juno, Glee), marriage (Sugar & Spice, Reba and Jeni, Juno) or life as a single mother (Saved!, Where the Heart Is, Someone Like You). In the German play Spring Awakening (and the Broadway musical based upon it), the central female character gets pregnant and dies from a botched abortion. Stephanie Daley deals with the aftermath of a teenage pregnancy that ends with a dead newborn baby. While the pregnant girl herself is normally the chief protagonist, Too Young to Be a Dad centers on a 15-year-old boy whose girlfriend becomes pregnant, while The Snapper focuses on the reactions of the family, particularly the soon-to-be grandfather.

Other fiction, particularly in a long-running television series, looks at the long-term effects of becoming a parent at a very young age (Degrassi Junior High). In Gilmore Girls, because Lorelai Gilmore is only 16 years older than her daughter Rory, the two are more like sisters than parent and child. Looking for Alibrandi also features the teenage daughter of a woman who was herself a teenage mother. In The George Lopez Show, Benny Lopez, Deborah Engerman gave birth to George at 16. In the ABC Family television show The Secret Life of the American Teenager centers on Amy Juergens, a 15 year old who becomes a teenage mother after a one night stand. In the popular Comedy Central television show South Park the character Carol McCormick was said to have had her sons Kevin McCormick at 13, and Kenny McCormick at 16. In the Japanese drama 14-sai no Haha: Aisuru tame ni Umaretekita, the protagonist Miki Ichinose becomes pregnant with her boyfriend's child at age 14. The show examines the impact of her pregnancy on her, her family, her school life, the life of her boyfriend and his family, and the society in which she resides.

Additionally, reality television shows have featured teenage pregnancy stories. MTV launched two reality shows about the topic, 16 and Pregnant and Teen Mom, in 2009. Each show depicts the gritty reality that pregnant teens face from friends and family while going through this life changing event, allowing teens to see what actually happens in this scenario through an outlet other than a scripted plot. Autobiographies that look at the author’s own experience of teenage motherhood include I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings and Gather Together in My Name by Maya Angelou, Coal Miner's Daughter by Loretta Lynn, and Riding in Cars with Boys by Beverly D'Onofrio.

Songs about teenage pregnancy include downbeat tales of abuse ("Brenda's Got a Baby"), poverty ("In The Ghetto") and back-alley abortion ("Sally's Pigeons"), as well as upbeat and defiant tunes such as "Papa Don't Preach". American pop singer Fantasia Barrino, who was 17 when she gave birth to her daughter, released a controversial song about single motherhood titled "Baby Mama", describing the difficulty of raising a child alone with limited financial and family support. (Many U.S. radio stations would not play the song, ostensibly because it contains a profanity.) "There Goes My Life", a modern country song by Kenny Chesney, focuses on the reaction of the father, who rhetorically asks, "I'm just a kid myself; how am I going to raise one?" As the daughter grows up, his attitude changes, and the song ends with his tearful farewell as she leaves for college. Due to its implied pro-life message, "There Goes My Life" was sung at the inauguration of George W. Bush in 2005 .

Moved here until refs are found. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:55, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Most of those things reference themselves because they are about teenage pregnancy. 16 and Pregnant and Teen Mom being examples. I'm going to go ahead and add it back, per those reasons and the fact that it can be easily verified/sourced. Flyer22 (talk) 22:03, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't object to including this information, although it might be a bit of spambait ("my favorite movie about" rather than "expert source says this movie had a significant cultural impact"). At least the majority of it looks easily verifiable, if someone wanted to bother providing inline citations. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:01, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, some of it could and probably should be cut. We don't need to list every instance the media has focused on teenage pregnancy. Flyer22 (talk) 17:06, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

We could find thousands of refs to teen pregnancy. The refs are required to verify notability of each example.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:03, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Definition

I wondered about this change to the definition ever since it was made by WhatamIdoing. And some IPs have tried to change the new definition at times, as seen in this link. In both of those new versions (which I don't really see as that different than each other, and am confused as to why WhatamIdoing reverted, despite the explanation) teenage pregnancy is defined as the female conceiving before her 20th birthday. Basically, I'm wondering how accurate it is to define teenage pregnancy that way. I mean, a woman who becomes pregnant at age 19 is still considered a teenage pregnancy even when it is known that she will have the baby at age 20 instead. Maybe the second line -- In everyday speech, the speaker is usually referring to unmarried minors who become pregnant unintentionally. -- already takes care of this aspect of the definition? Flyer22 (talk) 12:29, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, you'd think that was the definition, but it turns out that common sense is irrelevant.

Note that the November definition you link above is wrong, as it doesn't take into account pregnancies that end in any way other than birth. I corrected it in December. I spent two hours looking at sources that day, and they all used the date of the pregnancy's end, not the estimated date of conception (except for some—not all—research on abortions, which I didn't see, but whose deviation from the research community's norms was called out by one source as being unusual).

I found no good, clean, clear, authoritative source that laid down a widely accepted definition/declared that everyone must use this definition. Instead, this is the definition that is actually used in every medical journal article that I could lay my hands on, including (importantly) the sources that are the origin of all the statistics that we cite in this article. So the woman who conceives when she's 19 and gives birth at age 20 is not a teenage pregnancy in any of the government statistics, no matter what her neighbors might say.

(Also, whether the pregnant teens are recorded as being married always depends on whether they're married at the time of birth, not at the time of conception—again, no matter what their neighbors might say.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:51, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I see. Thanks for explaining. I was having a dumb moment yesterday when I made this section, confusing the word "conceive" with the word "birth." Which is very bad, considering I have corrected plenty of people in the past on that. As for the definition, since it's not the definition that is used in common speech, why don't we simply add a qualifier to the definition? By that, I mean change it to something like "In the medical and government statistical fields, a teenage pregnancy is defined as a pregnancy in a young woman who has not reached her 20th birthday when the pregnancy ends, regardless of whether the woman is married or is legally an adult (age 14 to 21, depending on the country)." That way, people will know which definition we are talking about, and the lead doesn't have to automatically speak as the authoritative or common use definition. After that, we could go into the the common use definition. I'm just throwing out ideas here, because the Pedophilia, Sexual intercourse and Vegetarianism articles, as well as many other Wikipedia articles have had to go through sort of the same things regarding their leads. For the Pedophilia article, we put the authoritative/correct definition first -- which is the sexual preference for prepubescent children. But because a few editors complained about the common use definition (a sexual attraction to anything under 18) having so little weight in the article, we altered the lead-in to begin with "As a medical diagnosis" (and altered a few other parts of the lead and overall article as well, no matter how much the common use definition, which includes child sexual abusers, is viewed as problematic by most researchers). For the Sexual intercourse article, since sexual intercourse is commonly defined/viewed as vaginal sex (penis in vagina) by dictionaries, encyclopedias, and the general society, before any other aspect of the definition, I put that definition first with the qualifier "commonly refers to." The penis-vagina definition coming first has also been agreed on time and time again at the talk page (it was already first before my alterations to the lead). Not to mention Copulation and Coitus, which are both about penis-vagina, also redirect there. And, finally, for the Vegetarianism article, we had to put the authoritative definition first for that as well, since the common use definition (pescetarianism being the main thing) is considered an invalid vegetarian diet by most vegetarians and vegetarian groups. We tackle the common use definition last on that.

So, basically, we could have a "some definitions say this" type of thing for the Teenage pregnancy article if you and others want. But if you'd rather leave the lead as is, I have no strong feelings about that. Flyer22 (talk) 12:58, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I figured that "formally defined" was sufficient, as few people will think the neighborhood gossip was a formal definition, and it's more concise.

If, BTW, you ever happen to run across it, I'd really like to get some good stats from 50–100 years ago into this article. I think some of our readers (or at least some of our least experienced editors) are so indoctrinated into the idea that "teenage motherhood" only happens to really screwed up women that they don't realize that it was normal and expected until the 1980s. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:05, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Refs needed

==Society and culture==

Teenage pregnancy has been used as a theme or plot device in fiction, including books, films, and television series. The setting may be historical (The Blue Lagoon, Hope and Glory) or contemporary (One Tree Hill). While the subject is generally treated in a serious manner (Junk), it can sometimes play up to stereotypes in a comic manner (Vicky Pollard in Little Britain).

The pregnancy itself may be the result of sexual abuse (Rose in The Cider House Rules), a one-night stand (Amy Barnes in Hollyoaks), a romantic relationship (Demi Miller in EastEnders); (Ronnie Mitchell in EastEnders); or a first time sexual encounter (Sarah-Louise Platt in Coronation Street) unusually, in Quinceañera, the central character becomes pregnant through non-penetrative sex. The drama often focuses around the discovery of the pregnancy and the decision to opt for abortion (Fast Times at Ridgemont High), adoption (Mom at Sixteen, Juno, Glee), marriage (Sugar & Spice, Reba and Jeni, Juno) or life as a single mother (Saved!, Where the Heart Is, Someone Like You). In the German play Spring Awakening (and the Broadway musical based upon it), the central female character gets pregnant and dies from a botched abortion. Stephanie Daley deals with the aftermath of a teenage pregnancy that ends with a dead newborn baby. While the pregnant girl herself is normally the chief protagonist, Too Young to Be a Dad centers on a 15-year-old boy whose girlfriend becomes pregnant, while The Snapper focuses on the reactions of the family, particularly the soon-to-be grandfather.

Other fiction, particularly in a long-running television series, looks at the long-term effects of becoming a parent at a very young age (Degrassi Junior High). In Gilmore Girls, because Lorelai Gilmore is only 16 years older than her daughter Rory, the two are more like sisters than parent and child. Looking for Alibrandi also features the teenage daughter of a woman who was herself a teenage mother. In The George Lopez Show, Benny Lopez, Deborah Engerman gave birth to George at 16. In the ABC Family television show The Secret Life of the American Teenager centers on Amy Juergens, a 15 year old who becomes a teenage mother after a one night stand. In the popular Comedy Central television show South Park the character Carol McCormick was said to have had her sons Kevin McCormick at 13, and Kenny McCormick at 16. In the Japanese drama 14-sai no Haha: Aisuru tame ni Umaretekita, the protagonist Miki Ichinose becomes pregnant with her boyfriend's child at age 14. The show examines the impact of her pregnancy on her, her family, her school life, the life of her boyfriend and his family, and the society in which she resides.

Additionally, reality television shows have featured teenage pregnancy stories. MTV launched two reality shows about the topic, 16 and Pregnant and Teen Mom, in 2009. Each show depicts the gritty reality that pregnant teens face from friends and family while going through this life changing event, allowing teens to see what actually happens in this scenario through an outlet other than a scripted plot. Autobiographies that look at the author’s own experience of teenage motherhood include I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings and Gather Together in My Name by Maya Angelou, Coal Miner's Daughter by Loretta Lynn, and Riding in Cars with Boys by Beverly D'Onofrio.

Songs about teenage pregnancy include downbeat tales of abuse ("Brenda's Got a Baby"), poverty ("In The Ghetto") and back-alley abortion ("Sally's Pigeons"), as well as upbeat and defiant tunes such as "Papa Don't Preach". American pop singer Fantasia Barrino, who was 17 when she gave birth to her daughter, released a controversial song about single motherhood titled "Baby Mama", describing the difficulty of raising a child alone with limited financial and family support. (Many U.S. radio stations would not play the song, ostensibly because it contains a profanity.) "There Goes My Life", a modern country song by Kenny Chesney, focuses on the reaction of the father, who rhetorically asks, "I'm just a kid myself; how am I going to raise one?" As the daughter grows up, his attitude changes, and the song ends with his tearful farewell as she leaves for college. Due to its implied pro-life message, "There Goes My Life" was sung at the inauguration of George W. Bush in 2005 .

Moved here until refs are found. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:55, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Most of those things reference themselves because they are about teenage pregnancy. 16 and Pregnant and Teen Mom being examples. I'm going to go ahead and add it back, per those reasons and the fact that it can be easily verified/sourced. Flyer22 (talk) 22:03, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't object to including this information, although it might be a bit of spambait ("my favorite movie about" rather than "expert source says this movie had a significant cultural impact"). At least the majority of it looks easily verifiable, if someone wanted to bother providing inline citations. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:01, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, some of it could and probably should be cut. We don't need to list every instance the media has focused on teenage pregnancy. Flyer22 (talk) 17:06, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

We could find thousands of refs to teen pregnancy. The refs are required to verify notability of each example.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:03, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

After instituting abstinence-only sex ed., Texas has the highest teen birth rate in the nation

"Teen sexuality before marriage is the problem. If we can nip that in the bud and talk to them about how damaging it is to their heart, that is really what is going to make a difference."

• Rick Perry Asked Why More Kids Are Getting Pregnant in Texas .--91.39.111.173 (talk) 00:58, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Religion and teenage pregnancy

There is no mention of links between religion and teenage pregnancy in the article. It is a notable omission. There is plenty of studies and data on it. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 23:05, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Are you aware of any sources that aren't just about teens in the US? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:59, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

I'll dig some up. Are you saying that a correlation between teenage pregnancy and religion would only be prevalent in the US? -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 20:38, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

No, but those are the only ones that I've seen, and the article is already heavily skewed towards Americans. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:46, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Even if the available info is largely US (probably because it's not nearly as big an issue in most developed countries), I think we should include it. I agree that this article needs more info not limited to the US — US-bias is a common problem in Wikipedia articles.

As for the influence of religion in countries besides the States, I suggest looking for info from countries where the Roman Catholic Church is very influential, especially in Latin America but also Europe (e.g., Poland). I'm not sure where to look but I strongly suspect this is a problem. (I recall reading that among both teenaged and adult women, there is frequent mortality & morbidity due to unsafe illegal abortions in the numerous Latin American countries where abortion is all but banned, sometimes with the only exception being if the woman's life is endangered, with the ban including cases where "only" her health is at risk.) Mia229 (talk) 14:25, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Mental disorders

Girls with certain mental disorders, including attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder and borderline personality disorder are much more likely to become preganant in their teens than those who don't have mental disorders. Does anyone have a reliable source on this so that it can be added to the article? Jim Michael (talk) 17:12, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't currently have sources but, from personal experience, I think those that yearn love and attention can be more vulnerable and less likely to resist.Felann96 (talk) 18:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Sex education/traditional values

"[Low teenage birth rate] is varyingly attributed to good sex education and high levels of contraceptive use (in the case of the Netherlands and Scandinavia), traditional values and social stigmatization (in the case of Spain and Italy) or both (in the case of Switzerland)." What is this nonsense supposed to mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ciospo (talk • contribs) 14:30, 1 May 2013‎

It means the same thing that it always means for something to be variously attributed to different reasons: Different people give different reasons.

In this case, people studying northern Europe say that low birth rates are caused by good sex education and high levels of contraceptive use. People studying southern Europe say that it is caused by traditional values (i.e., teenagers not having sex) or social stigmatization (teenagers being ostracized if they get pregnant). People studying Switzerland say that it is caused by traditional values and social stigmatization. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:03, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I think it's because Spain and Italy, have large Roman Catholic communities and values of chastity and marriage are likely to prevail more in them.Felann96 (talk) 19:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Source

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2012/05/teen_moms_how_poverty_and_inequality_cause_teens_to_have_babies_not_the_other_way_around_.html is a potentially interesting source for information about economic consequences. It appears that we may have some correlation and causation errors about teenage motherhood and future poverty. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:47, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with that. Most of the teen mothers I know have been from poor backgrounds. Felann96 (talk) 19:29, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Math

Hi User:Kww,

Here are the rates from the cited source:

• Ages 10–14: 0.4 births per 1,000 girls.
• Ages 15–17: 17.3 births per 1,000 teens.
• Ages 18–19: 58.3 births per 1,000 adults.

As this is a developed country without odd epidemics or wars to cause age-specific differences, we assume for convenience that there are essentially equal numbers of each age. That gives us ten equal-sized years in the group, with a total rates looking like this:

• (0.4+0.4+0.4+0.4+0.4) = 2.0 per 5,000 girls.
• (17.3+17.3+17.3) = 51.9 per 3,000 teens.
• (58.3+58.3) = 116.6 per 2,000 adults.

That adds up to 170.5 births per 10,000 females aged 10 to 19, and 116.6, or a bit over 68% of them, are to women aged 18 or 19. More than two-thirds of all births in the group is "most" by any reasonable standard. Do you agree? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:40, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

No objection to carefully phrased references to "most", but 68% shouldn't be presented as "virtually all" or any other kind of phrasing that minimizes the other 32%. We also need to be careful of any phrasing that blurs having reached majority with cultural adulthood: any culture that considers teenage pregnancy to be a problem will consider it to be a problem for an 18-year-old mother that hasn't graduated high-school.—Kww(talk) 22:11, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi User:Kww,

In places where high school completion is unusual, then I suspect that people might still worry about it.

So it sounds like you don't object to something like teenage births in the US are to "older teenagers, mostly adult women aged 18 or 19"? That's clearly "mostly", not "virtually all". WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:43, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I object to describing high-school students as "adult women", yes.—Kww(talk) 23:21, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Why not? The law considers them to be adults. They can vote, marry, join the military, and go to adult prison if they're convicted of serious crimes. I'm not aware of any legal system or even any common definition that says obtaining a high school diploma is what makes a person become an adult.

Furthermore, only a small percentage of these women are high school students anyway. The median high school student is turned 18 years old in the month or two before graduation, and we're talking only about the ones that are 18.0 and older, with an emphasis on the "older" part. The birth rates are higher among the 19 year olds than among the 18 year olds. This means that nearly all of these women would have finished high school before the birth—assuming, of course, that they didn't drop out and are thus not high school students. (Dropping out of school before getting pregnant is a significant risk factor for a teen pregnancy.)

Can you produce any sources that say 18 year olds and 19 year olds should not be described as adult women solely on the basis of their hypothesized student status? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:43, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

No, but I doubt you could find a source that made the description mandatory. I'd suggest you find a phrasing that uses neither "women" nor "girls".—Kww(talk) 00:54, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Would you like to have an RFC about whether it's okay to refer to females who have reached the age of majority as being "adults" and "women" (a word that is not unreasonably applied to post-pubescent females, regardless of their legal status)? In the meantime, I assume that the current change will be acceptable, since it avoids both "girls" and "women" as requested, and also "adults", which I assume is also on your list. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:58, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

It's a good, neutral phrasing that doesn't make unnecessary judgments. I think you would find very few people in favour of routinely referring to pubescent thirteen-year-olds as "women", and I will grant that my personal difficulty in granting "adult" status to any teenagers probably represents the other edge. There's no reason for this article to take a position one way or the other.—Kww(talk) 20:15, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

On the other hand, the statement clearly was describing only those who were legally considered adults to be adult women, so the problem of classifying 13 year olds (and I know people who firmly believe that menarche, even if only ten years old, is the moment at which a girl becomes a woman) is irrelevant. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:46, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

This reminds me of "Lies, damned lies, and statistics". Numbers can be so misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Felann96 (talk • contribs) 19:43, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Ethnicity

The Prevalence section states that in the US, black and hispanic teenagers have higher rates of pregnancy than white and Asian teenagers, but does not say why that is the case. Jim Michael (talk) 17:35, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

I think you would be very hard to find a source that authoritatively states why, and it wouldn't be good for editors to speculate.—Kww(talk) 17:59, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Epidemiology?

The "Epidemiology" section and the related article (Epidemiology of teenage pregnancy) should be renamed and moved to a more appropriate title, like "prevalence" or "incidence". Teenage pregnancy is a social issue, not a disease.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 14:37, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree--Felann96 (talk) 17:50, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

This subject was extensively discussed at WP:MED this year. While there was no clear-cut WP:CONSENSUS on the matter there, the article was moved to Prevalence of teenage pregnancy due to the proposal on the article's talk page (in other words, there were no objections to the move there on that article's talk page). Flyer22 (talk) 17:26, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

It makes sense.Felann96 (talk) 12:40, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Agree that prevalence is more accurate than Epidemiology, however since the prevalence section remains and belongs also in this article, that increases the editorial investment in having to update both. Any ideas about options to improve that? Benutzer41 (talk) 18:43, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

I feel the first part of the second paragraph under the sub-heading "Prevalence":

"The prevalence of teenage pregnancy depends on a number of personal and societal factors, varying between countries because of cultural differences in attitude, levels of sexual activity, marriage among teenagers, general sex education provided and contraceptive options. Many studies and campaigns have attempted to uncover the causes and limit the numbers of teenage pregnancies."

is unnecessary because it explains the causes which already has it's own sub-heading further along.Felann96 (talk) 22:29, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Causes

The section on causes has content that doesn't fit the title "Causes". Suggest "Contributing Factors"? Benutzer41 (talk) 18:47, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree; there is often a combination of factors.Felann96 (talk) 16:46, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

History

I removed this sentence because it was inappropriately cited: The reference is a historical interpretation.

Perhaps the most famous teenage pregnancy in history was Mary, Mother of Jesus. She is generally believed to have been 13 years old when she gave birth to Jesus. Other sources place her age as high as 15 years.

Benutzer41 (talk) 18:29, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi Benutzer41, I don't think I fully understand your concern. Did you remove the whole paragraph because of the one uncited sentence at the end? Do you think the estimated age for Mary is wrong, and that this is not an example of a teenage pregnancy? (It seems to be reported as about age 13 according to many sources, not just this one.) Do you object to a religion-related example being included at all? Do you think Mary is just a fictional story rather than proper "history"? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:13, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Given that it is difficult to establish that Jesus actually existed (our article citing Christians who believe in his existence not withstanding), including Mary is pretty questionable. Does it really add anything meaningful to this article?—Kww(talk) 20:03, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

The lead of Jesus says "Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that a historical Jesus existed," so I don't think that we need to worry too much about "establishing actual existence" here. We are not making claims about divinity or a miraculous start to the pregnancy here—only that lots of people have heard about this pregnancy before.

This is obviously relevant to the subject matter, so commonly listed among famous pregnancies (e.g., here) that its omission would violate WP:DUE, commonly referenced in modern culture (e.g., here for one reference that sparked outrage), and probably the only specific pregnancy listed in the article that will be familiar to most of our readers, regardless of age—especially native English-speaking readers, approximately 100% of whom will have heard about this pregnancy due to pervasive Christmas celebrations.

I suspect that Mary's estimated age at the time of the pregnancy is less well-known, which is why I think it's interesting to include. WhatamIdoing (talk) 13:02, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Note my comment earlier about "our article citing Christians who believe in his existence not withstanding". There are a few areas where the cultural bias of the groups we pull editors from completely overwhelms our ability to maintain a neutral POV, and the topic of Christ's historicity is one of them.—Kww(talk) 04:22, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

If you exclude all the people who believe that the Earth is round from your sample, then you'll definitely find a majority of acceptable sources saying that the Earth isn't round, too. I don't think that "the historical existence of Jesus" is really the point of Christianity, any more than "the historical existence of Muhammad" is the point behind Islam. There seem to be atheists who believe that someone named Jesus existed and caused some political problems back then. The point behind Christianity seems to be far more about whether Jesus was anything other than a regular old human. "Neutrality" is the sum of reliable sources, not the sum of reliable sources after excluding all the ones you think are biased. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:06, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

There's a strawman argument if I've ever seen one. Muslims and Christians both believe that Jesus was a holy prophet of God, and are frequently incapable of objectively examining whether he actually existed. Among historians that are neither Christian nor Muslim, there isn't a strong consensus one way or the other as to whether he existed. When we get into secondary figures such as Mary, the level of support for historical accuracy of any account is even lower.—Kww(talk) 00:23, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi, WhatamIdoing, I appreciate your comments, but I removed it because the reference document does not back up the sentence as fact, see WP:MINREF. Are there any historical documents that could be cited? Benutzer41 (talk) 14:26, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

I doubt that we really want "historical documents". We're better off with a secondary source like this one, that says Mary is generally assumed to have been about 13 years old, since that was normal for the culture. Google says that Hippolytus of Thebes claims she was 16 at the time of birth. This book on art says "not older than 17" and this one "12 or 13 years old". The article Mary, Mother of Jesus says age 12 to 14 and cites what looks like a Roman Catholic encyclopedia.

I have seen no sources that claim an age higher than 17. Most claim 13 (or 13 at the start and 14 at the birth.) Do you have any reason to think that Mary was not a teenager at the time of the birth? WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:08, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Are the opening paragraphs (up to contents) too drawn out and elaborate?

Should they be condensed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Felann96 (talk • contribs) 15:54, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean. The opening paragraphs are decent, though, per WP:LEAD, the lead should summarize the article better than it is doing now. Currently, the only big paragraph in the lead is the prevalence one...but its length is understandable. Flyer22 (talk) 16:09, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

It just seemed a bit too detailed and specific for the opening.Felann96 (talk) 17:29, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

You still aren't being specific. The lead should not be overly detailed, but, per WP:LEAD, it should adequately summarize the article's most important contents. And an article of this size should at least have four paragraphs (four paragraphs is the limit set up by WP:LEAD, by the way). Flyer22 (talk) 17:37, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

It was mainly "The prevalence of teenage pregnancy depends on..." that stood out.Felann96 (talk) 18:11, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Do you think it's really too much information, or is it just too hard to understand? We could re-write it to use simpler words. For example, that first sentence could be re-written to say something like, "There are many different reasons why individual teenagers get pregnant, and there are many different reasons why more teenagers get pregnant in some societies than in others." Then we'd need to list some of the reasons, like how many teens are married and how many of them can get birth control. Would that help? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:59, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The real problem with this topic is that it is identified by something that the the US and Europe tends to view as a problem and much of the rest of the world does not. It then quickly tries to balance out that bias with disclaimers about how it is viewed in other cultures. In much of the world, "teenage pregnancy" is considered quite normal. Our bias even shows in the charts, where "over 50 [per 1000]" is marked in black: I've lived in places where having a baby before graduating high-school was considered normal.—Kww(talk) 21:20, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Here is an example from a passage of what I think is clear and concise:

"Industrialized and developing countries have distinctly different rates of teenage pregnancy. In developed regions, such as North America and Western Europe, teen parents tend to be unmarried and adolescent pregnancy is seen as a social issue. By contrast, teenage parents in developing countries are often married, and their pregnancy may be welcomed by family and society. However, in these societies, early pregnancy may combine with malnutrition and poor health care to cause medical problems."

It doesn't show statistics but it still gives you an understanding. Felann96 (talk) 18:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

There is definitely too much information in the 4th paragraph (The prevalence ...). It gives statistics without explaining how they are formulated. And the information is repeated further down in the article. I suggest replacing it with the concise paragraph that I have pasted above. Felann96 (talk) 04:56, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree with the trimming the lead section, I will move some of the detail on the U.S. to the U.S. section below. I also agree there is a "developing nations versus developed nations" bias but it's hard to stick to the facts on this, such as whether the pregnancy is welcomed or not. At least one sentence in the opening paragraph cites some risk related to biological age which should apply to everyone. Benutzer41 (talk) 14:49, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

On October 11th, I'd removed one addition from the prevalence paragraph that was in the lead, as documented by this, this and this edit. Yesterday, I was tempted to remove Benutzer41's addition to that paragraph. I'm sure that it's Benutzer41 addition that caused Felann96 to re-post in this section. I mostly disagree with Benutzer41's restructuring edit because it removed the summary of the prevalence of teenage pregnancy from the lead (and, as I noted above, a summary about that aspect should be in the lead) and it created unneeded subsections. Per MOS:PARAGRAPHS, "Short paragraphs and single sentences generally do not warrant their own subheading." There is already a main article for the prevalence of teenage pregnancy; therefore, we should exercise good WP:Summary style for the section about that topic in this article. A good thing about Benutzer41's restructuring edit is the addition of the Definition section; it, with WP:Reliable sources, clears up WhatamIdoing's "under the age of 20 at the time that the pregnancy ends" text that I and Felann96 have objected to; I objected a couple of years ago and recently (recent aspect seen here and here, though that first diff-link shows me adding back WhatamIdoing's text), and Felann96 has objected recently; see the #Definition discussion below for further details. Flyer22 (talk) 17:24, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

I thought the lead was too detailed. Felann96 (talk) 01:54, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

A very strange formulation.

At the end of the second paragraph of Causes-->General, the wiki states "Some teenage girls have said to be pressured into having sex with their boyfriends at a young age, and yet no one taught teens how to deal with this pressure or to say "no".[51]"

I don't fully understand how the final part of this sentence constitutes wiki-material. It does not seem particularly encyclopedic and it almost seems a personal opinion. This said, I cannot think of how to possibly salvage this. Any suggestions?

Also, now that I've started looking through this article, the final line of the Prevention-->United Kingdom section is a) out of date, b) not sourced and c) looks like pure opinion ("There are questions about whether the 2010 target of a 50% reduction on 1998 levels can be met.") I don't even know where to start looking for this data...

--Hentheden (talk) 10:11, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. I removed the first sentence that you mentioned entirely while doing a general copyedit of the article; similar sentiments are expressed far more articulately in other parts of the page. I've gone ahead and removed the second sentence you mentioned as well, because I had similar concerns about it. Graham87 06:44, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Excellent editing Graham! I didn't realize that there were so many errors until I looked at the changes that you made. Felann96 (talk) 01:38, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Removal of Media section from article

Kww removed the media section of this article as it was asserted that is was a "large chunk of poorly-sourced original research [2]. This prompted a limited exchange via edit summary between Kww, Flyer22 and myself [3] [4] [5]. The discussion was then taken to Flyer22's talk page which I have quoted from below:

Hi Flyer22. I suspect you're right [6], but can you point me to the relevant TV and film policy that states "the fiction serves as the source for plot material". I'll probably argue that while that's fine for articles about TV episodes and films, for other topics we should have secondary sources relating the media material to the article topic. [...] Anyhow, as it was large chunk of work, its deletion probably should be discussed on the talk page. Would you like to start the discussion? FiachraByrne (talk) 03:43, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, in addition to that link, you are referring to this, this and this link. WikiProjects don't have policies, but with regard to practice or official guidelines... For WP:TV, there is WP:TVPLOT and we had a big discussion about such sourcing at WP:SOAPS in 2011 (WP:TV editors took part in that discussion); you can find that discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Soap Operas/Archive 5#Storylines sections lack references. For WP:FILM, there is WP:FILMPLOT, though, in part it states, "in film articles" (which can support your argument that such a "the fiction sources itself" approach is only appropriate in the article about that particular fiction). ...

[...]

Flyer22 (talk) 04:34, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it was original research. It took a series of events sourced only to primary material and made conclusions and generalizations about the treatment of teenage pregnancy in media based on them. That's original research. A statement about the plot of the Gilmore Girls isn't original research, but "Other fiction, particularly in a long-running television series..." is.—Kww(talk) 05:42, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

The WP:Original research policy states: Wikipedia articles must not contain original research. The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.

Its reference for that line states: By "exists", the community means that the reliable source must have been published and still exist—somewhere in the world, in any language, whether or not it is reachable online—even if no source is currently named in the article. Articles that currently name zero references of any type may be fully compliant with this policy—so long as there is a reasonable expectation that every bit of material is supported by a published, reliable source.

So, no, because sources exist for a lot of that material (including stating that those matters are examples of [so and so]), I can't agree with you that the material you removed was WP:Original research. Or rather not that all of it was. Like I stated, most of it (the significant majority of it) was/is not WP:Original research, but simply a reiteration of the plot and stating that the plot is an example of [so and so]; looking at the Wikipedia articles for those works show that they are examples of what that text stated. I would agree that what you removed in this regard is WP:Synthesis, which is an aspect of WP:Original research, but the text wasn't synthesizing sources. The text was certainly WP:Editorializing, however.

[...]

Flyer22 (talk) 06:27, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Discussion on Flyer22's talk page]

Flyer does not wish to take any further part in this discussion, but suggested the relevant exchange from their talk page should be placed here. FiachraByrne (talk) 15:14, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, FiachraByrne. It's not so much that I don't wish to take part in this discussion; it's just that I don't care much to take part in it, and rather wanted it discussed here on the article talk page instead of at mine. Flyer22 (talk) 15:18, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

I also agree that the section Kww removed should be significantly fixed up before, or if, it is reinstated. And so should a similar section if placed in this article. Personally, if I'd added that information, I would have sourced even the plot details at some parts because the Teenage pregnancy article is not the article about those fiction pieces and I know that experienced Wikipedians generally expect sources. Since Wikipedia is not supposed to be used to source itself, simply going to the Wikipedia article about the fiction (even if that Wikipedia article is well-sourced) is not sufficient sourcing. Flyer22 (talk) 15:27, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

If an article is already in the media should that not count as a published source? I think the media section is important as the media effects peoples attitudes and behavior - particularly young people. Some people have complained that tv programs such as 16 and Pregnant unintentionally glamorize and encourage teen pregnancy. This has been spoken and written about quite a lot. Felann96 (talk) 17:42, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, any published piece of fiction (e.g., a TV show) is a WP:Published primary source and can be used to make simple factual claims about its contents. You may cite Pride and Prejudice to say that the principal character is named Elizabeth, and you may cite a TV show about pregnant teenagers to say that the TV show is about pregnant teenagers.

Analysis of the TV show's effect on society—e.g., complaints that it glamorizes and encourages teen pregnancy—is a secondary source. We prefer secondary sources. (NB that WP:Secondary does not mean good. You can have a lousy secondary source, and you can have a great primary source. But overall, we prefer secondary sources.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:17, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Flyer22 that the now deleted media section would have benefited from a revamp and with WAID that secondary sources should be preferred, especially if the article is to say anything meaningful about media portrayals of the topic rather than provide an iteration of various instances of the appearance of the topic in the media. There are some sources for this [7] [8] although a lot of sources are pretty fixated on the limited notion of whether or not a given media portrayal has a preventative function. FiachraByrne (talk) 01:36, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

If people want to add a section about "portrayal of teenage pregnancy in the media" or something of the sort, that's fine, but it should be based on sources that are about teenage pregnancy in the media. Even producing a list of examples implicitly states "these are important examples of teenage pregnancy in the media" and comes right up to the edge of being original research, even if we have a lot of sloppily sourced "such-and-such in pop culture" articles and lists. This is an area that is actually studied in reliable sources, so there's no reason for Wikipedia editors to be the ones selecting which examples are relevant and which are not.—Kww(talk) 18:35, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Anyone fancy writing this by the way? FiachraByrne (talk) 01:23, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Could it be done together on here as a team effort? Maybe using the deleted Media section as a template and editing it on here? Then only adding it to the article once everyone is satisfied. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Teenage_pregnancy&oldid=587299913#Media Felann96 (talk) 13:04, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Teenage pregnancy has been used as a theme or plot device in fiction, including books, films, and television series. The setting may be historical (The Blue Lagoon, Hope and Glory) or contemporary (One Tree Hill). While the subject is generally treated in a serious manner (Junk), it can sometimes play up to stereotypes in a comic manner (Vicky Pollard in Little Britain and pregnant teen Chantelle "Telle" Garvey in ITV's sitcom Benidorm.)

The pregnancy itself may be the result of sexual abuse (Rose in The Cider House Rules), a one-night stand (Amy Barnes in Hollyoaks), a romantic relationship (Demi Miller in EastEnders); (Ronnie Mitchell in EastEnders); or a first-time sexual encounter (Sarah-Louise Platt in Coronation Street) and (Kathy Stabler in Law & Order: Special Victims Unit – unusually, in Quinceañera, the central character becomes pregnant through non-penetrative sex. The drama often focuses around the discovery of the pregnancy and the decision to opt for abortion (Fast Times at Ridgemont High), adoption (Mom at Sixteen, Juno, Glee), marriage (Sugar & Spice, Reba and Jeni, Juno) or life as a single mother (Saved!, Where the Heart Is, Someone Like You). In the German play Spring Awakening (and the Broadway musical based upon it), the central female character gets pregnant and dies from a botched abortion. Stephanie Daley deals with the aftermath of a teenage pregnancy that ends with a dead newborn baby. While the pregnant girl herself is normally the chief protagonist, Too Young to Be a Dad centers on a 15-year-old boy whose girlfriend becomes pregnant, while The Snapper focuses on the reactions of the family, particularly the soon-to-be grandfather.

Other fiction, particularly in a long-running television series, looks at the long-term effects of becoming a parent at a very young age (Degrassi Junior High). In Gilmore Girls, because Lorelai Gilmore is only 16 years older than her daughter Rory, the two are more like sisters than parent and child. Looking for Alibrandi also features the teenage daughter of a woman who was herself a teenage mother. In George Lopez, Benny Lopez gave birth to George at 16. The ABC Family television show The Secret Life of the American Teenager centers on Amy Juergens, a 15-year-old who becomes a teenage mother after a one night stand. In the popular Comedy Central television show South Park the character Carol McCormick was said to have had her sons Kevin and Kenny at 13 and 16, respectively. In the Japanese drama 14-sai no Haha: Aisuru tame ni Umaretekita, the protagonist Miki Ichinose becomes pregnant with her boyfriend's child at age 14. The show examines the impact of her pregnancy on her, her family, her school life, the life of her boyfriend and his family, and the society in which she resides. In the video game series The Idolmaster, a character named Ai Hidaka was born when her mother was 16.

Reality television shows have featured teenage pregnancy stories. The Family, a fly-on-the-wall BBC television documentary series made in 1974, showed a teenage couple, Gary Wilkins and his wife Karen with their child. MTV launched two reality shows specifically about the topic, 16 and Pregnant and Teen Mom, in 2009. Each show depicts the reality that pregnant teens face from friends and family while going through this life-changing event, allowing teens to see what actually happens in this scenario through an outlet other than a scripted plot.

Autobiographies that look at the author’s own experience of teenage motherhood include I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings and Gather Together in My Name by Maya Angelou, Coal Miner's Daughter by Loretta Lynn, and Riding in Cars with Boys by Beverly D'Onofrio.

Songs about teenage pregnancy include downbeat tales of abuse ("Brenda's Got a Baby"), poverty ("In The Ghetto") and back-alley abortion ("Sally's Pigeons"), as well as upbeat and defiant tunes such as "Papa Don't Preach". American pop singer Fantasia Barrino, who was 17 when she gave birth to her daughter, released a controversial song about single motherhood titled "Baby Mama", describing the difficulty of raising a child alone with limited financial and family support. (Many U.S. radio stations would not play the song, ostensibly because it contains profanity.) "There Goes My Life", a modern country song by Kenny Chesney, focuses on the reaction of the father, who rhetorically asks, "I'm just a kid myself; how am I going to raise one?" As the daughter grows up, his attitude changes, and the song ends with his tearful farewell as she leaves for college. Due to its implied pro-life message, "There Goes My Life" was sung at the inauguration of George W. Bush in 2005. Felann96 (talk) 12:05, 8 January 2014 (UTC)