Talk:Richelieu (2023 film)

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Title

Please note that the English Wikipedia uses the film's English-release title, not its original-language title. The English-language title here is definitely Temporaries, per [1] and [2]. We can consider moving this at a later date if English-language sources start using Richelieu instead of Temporaries, but the English article on the English Wikipedia has to be located at the title that an English speaker would know the film by, and the English-language sources are clearly calling this Temporaries at the present time. Bearcat (talk) 02:43, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

"Richelieu" is indeed the official and primary English title. It is used in English Canada and in the United States as the official English-language title. The English version of the film will be released theatrically by Funfilm Distribution in Canada on September 1st (source : https://www.cinemaduparc.com/en/film/richelieu). "Richelieu" is the title used by the Tribeca Film Festival in New York City for its World Premiere (source: https://tribecafilm.com/films/richelieu-2023). It is also the title used by the Fantasia Film Festival for its Canadian premiere (source: https://fantasiafestival.com/en/film/richelieu). The Calgary International Film Festival uses it as the official English title (source : https://ciff2023.eventive.org/films/64dac0dcc527c30041fa8c6a). Major publications used its official English in reviews and news article, such as The New York Times (source: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/07/movies/tribeca-festival-movie-picks.html), Screen Daily (source: https://www.screendaily.com/news/box-office-hit-talk-to-me-wins-2023-fantasia-international-feature-audience-award/5184904.article), Movie Jawn (source : https://www.moviejawn.com/home/2023/6/16/tribeca-2023-richelieu-all-you-hear-is-noise-the-last-night-of-amore-one-night-with-adela), Pop Culture Review (https://popculturereviews.com/2023/06/09/tribeca-2023-perpetrator-and-richelieu/). The page should be moved permanently to "Richelieu". "Temporaries" should be noted as an alternate title for the European territory. Pier-Philippe (talk) 23:51, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 28 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Over the course of the month that this discussion spent open, the number of sources using the title Richelieu steadily grew, while usage of Temporaries does not appear to have grown commensurately. Accordingly, the discussion converged to a consensus that Richelieu is the film's WP:COMMONNAME. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:09, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

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Temporaries → Richelieu (2023 film) – r"Richelieu" is indeed the official and primary English title for the film sometimes refered to in Europe as "Temporaries". Richelieu is used in English Canada and in the United States as the official English-language title. The English version of the film will be released theatrically by Funfilm Distribution in Canada on September 1st (source : https://www.cinemaduparc.com/en/film/richelieu). "Richelieu" is the title used by the Tribeca Film Festival in New York City for its World Premiere (source: https://tribecafilm.com/films/richelieu-2023). It is also the title used by the Fantasia Film Festival for its Canadian premiere (source: https://fantasiafestival.com/en/film/richelieu). The Calgary International Film Festival uses it as the official English title (source : https://ciff2023.eventive.org/films/64dac0dcc527c30041fa8c6a). Major publications used its official English in reviews and news article, such as The New York Times (source: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/07/movies/tribeca-festival-movie-picks.html), Screen Daily (source: https://www.screendaily.com/news/box-office-hit-talk-to-me-wins-2023-fantasia-international-feature-audience-award/5184904.article), Movie Jawn (source : https://www.moviejawn.com/home/2023/6/16/tribeca-2023-richelieu-all-you-hear-is-noise-the-last-night-of-amore-one-night-with-adela), Pop Culture Review (https://popculturereviews.com/2023/06/09/tribeca-2023-perpetrator-and-richelieu/). The page should be moved permanently to "Richelieu". "Temporaries" should be noted as an English AKA title for the European territory. Pier-Philippe (talk) 18:43, 26 August 2023 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). UtherSRG (talk) 11:33, 28 August 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 16:47, 4 September 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 00:30, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

@Pier-Philippe: Since there is disagreement over the appropriate name (as shown by the reverted bold move and talk-page comments), this would require a formal requested-move discussion, which you can open by clicking "discuss" on your request. SilverLocust 💬 02:13, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Canada has been notified of this discussion. UtherSRG (talk) 11:33, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Film has been notified of this discussion. UtherSRG (talk) 11:33, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

• We don't care about WP:COI assertions of what is or isn't "official", or about film festival catalogues (which are primary sources that do not help to establish the notability of a film at all), or about unreliable blogs like "Movie Jawn" or "Pop Culture Review" that wouldn't even qualify as notability-assisting coverage in the first place — we care about what title is or isn't actually seen in real-world media coverage. That is, the question of how our article should or should not be titled is determined by what title is or isn't used in coverage about the film in quality sources like Cineuropa ("Temporaries"), Variety ("Temporaries") and Collider ("Temporaries"), of which you'll note that two of three are North American, not European, sources and thus fail to demonstrate that Temporaries is merely a European title.
  Tribeca, Fantasia, CIFF, Movie Jawn or Pop Culture Review have nothing to do with anything, because those are not reliable sources and could not be cited as referencing for anything in the article at all. Even Films du Québec still says that the film "s’intitule Temporaries dans sa version sous-titrée en anglais", and the New York Times and Screen Daily articles you offered aren't about the film in any non-trivial sense, but merely glancingly namecheck it in the process of listing the entire Tribeca lineup or the entire award-winners slate at Fantasia — and thus brief mentions of the film by that title aren't enough coverage to override four much deeper and much more detailed sources that are calling it Temporaries.
  I said all along, the title is open to reconsideration if reliable sources start using Richelieu instead of Temporaries as the film's English title, but so far you're bringing primary sources and blogs to show something that still isn't being seen in reliable English-language sources at all, while the reliable English-language sources are still using the English title Temporaries rather than Richelieu. We don't follow what blogs say, we don't follow what film festival catalogues say, and we don't privately contact directors by e-mail to ask for their personal approval over what we're allowed to say — we follow the titles that English-language media of record use, and the English-language media of record sources here are still using Temporaries as of right now. Again, we can revisit this at a later date if the likes of Barry Hertz or Radheyan Simonpillai or Richard Crouse (major English-language Canadian film critics who work for properly WP:GNG-worthy media outlets) start reviewing it as Richelieu once it goes into wider commercial release, but we haven't seen the English title change in reliable and substantive and independent English language sources yet. Bearcat (talk) 17:47, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

  Would you consider CBC a reliable source? Here is a clip from Morning show "Our Montreal" shown on July 29th 2023, referencing the film as "Richelieu" : http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2249943107620

  Again, theatre listings for the English subtitles version at Cinéma du Parc (https://www.cinemaduparc.com/film/richelieu) listing it as "Richelieu".

  Cinemaclock.com listing of the film also uses Richelieu in English (https://www.cinemamontreal.com/movies/richelieu-2023/showtimes).

  Cinoche.com theatre listings also explicitely states that the English language version is called "Richelieu" : v.o.f.s.-t.a. : Richelieu (https://www.cinoche.com/films/richelieu)

  I am surprised that "filmsduquebec.com" would be considered a reliable source. The information featured on it is incorrect, thank you for spotting it, we will send a requested for it to be corrected.

  The "Collider.com" review was done as part of their Karlovy Vary IFF coverage, in Europe, where Temporaries was used. The Variety article was also published in synchronicity with the Karlovy Vary lineup announcement (the following day, to be precise, on May 31st 2023). You can clearly see however that the Official English language Teaser linked on that very same page is titled "Richelieu". Pier-Philippe (talk) 13:25, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

  Cinéma Moderne, which screens the English version of the film, also lists it as "Richelieu" : https://www.cinemamoderne.com/en/films/details/richelieu/ Pier-Philippe (talk) 13:42, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

  Filmsduquebec.com has been edited as per request from the film's PR team. https://www.filmsquebec.com/films/richelieu-pier-philippe-chevigny/ Pier-Philippe (talk) 09:59, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

  Theatrical listings catalogues like Cinemaclock, Cinéma du Parc, Cinéma Moderned and Cinoche are not acceptable sources for Wikipedia content, and neither are interviews in which a person directly associated with the making of the film is talking about it in the first person. The only type of sourcing we can ever cite for Wikipedia content is media coverage in which a film critic or an arts journalist is writing about the film and its production in an analytical manner from a third person perspective in a newspaper, a magazine or a web-published transcript of a television or radio report — nothing that falls short of a journalistic standard is ever usable at all. Which is why I said that the ticket here is if and when English Canadian film critics, like Barry Hertz or Richard Crouse or Radheyan Simonpillaim start reviewing the film as Richelieu rather than Temporaries in English-language newspapers. Bearcat (talk) 15:27, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support at this time per the Funfilm reference, and the Canadian cinema chain Cineplex uses Richelieu here. If we only have Canadian-release content, then I think that it should be the default. It's completely possible that the film won't see a release outside Canada. However, if after this weekend, English-language reliable sources write about the Canadian release of Richelieu as Temporaries, I'll be glad to return and reconsider. Also fine with returning to Temporaries if there is a non-Canadian release with coverage using that title. EDIT: On a related note, I expanded the Richelieu description here to cover our bases. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 21:01, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Calendar listings on the self-published websites of cinema chains aren't reliable sources. We need media outlets to refer to it as Richelieu in English-language journalism, not Cineplex. Bearcat (talk) 15:31, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

My point is that it's extremely unlikely that a theater chain will release a film under one title, and coverage about that released film will refer it by another title. Again, it's possible that it will catch on as Temporaries in English-language sources later on (as in, in other territories with coverage of that), but until we know what that "later on" looks like, Richelieu seems to be the more appropriate default. This today is a French-language reliable source calling it Richelieu. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 17:27, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

This isn't a question of what "might become true later on" — it's a question of what the sources are already showing. As of right now, all of the English-language reliable sources that covered this film in any depth already are calling it Temporaries, and the only sourcing we've seen for the English title Richelieu so far is blogs, movie listings calendars and brief glancing namechecks of the film's existence in listicles. French-language sources obviously prove what the French language title is, but they don't prove anything about what is or isn't the English language title — what we have for substantive English language coverage so far is Cineuropa calling it Temporaries, Variety calling it Temporaries and Collider calling it Temporaries, and absolutely no evidence of any English-language film critic reviewing it as Richelieu yet at all. Which means that Temporaries is the English title that's supported by proper sourcing, and Richelieu is the title that has to wait for the emergence of future sourcing that hasn't been shown yet, not vice versa. Bearcat (talk) 16:06, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Is the CBC not a reliable source? Again, Here is a clip shown on July 29th 2023, referencing the film as "Richelieu" : http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2249943107620 It is not unlikely that the film will never be distributed outside of Quebec and will never be reviewed by the only three journalists you deem are reliable sources. Although Richelieu opens theatrically today, Anglo-Quebecers wanting to see a film called "Temporaries" will find no scheduled screening anywhere although there are at least three cinemas in the Montreal area screening the film with English subtitles. 74.59.83.87 (talk) 20:18, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I already addressed that video clip above: the problem with that isn't that it's the CBC, the problem is that it's an interview, which is a type of primary sourcing that we cannot use. The question here isn't what name did or didn't you call it in when you were talking about your own work in the first person in an interview — lots of Quebec filmmakers whose first language is French will call their own film by its French-language title when they're speaking in English even if the film has a different English title, so we don't go by what title you are heard calling it in an interview, we have to go by what title film critics call it in professional third-party reviews in reliable non-blog media of record. We still, as of right now, have only seen English-language film critics review this as "Temporaries", and we still have not seen any English-language film critics review this as "Richelieu" yet — it's what title film critics use when they're writing third party reviews of the film, not what you say in an interview on a talk show, that matters here.
I mean, I'm not trying to be an asshole here, but Wikipedia has rules that we have to follow, and one of those rules is that we have to rely on reliable source journalism and analysis in third party media outlets that are independent of the things the subject (or people associated with the subject) say about themselves in interviews. And the reason we have to do it that way is because if we relied on people's own claims about themselves, then people could insert outright lies into Wikipedia just by claiming them in an interview — we have people try to get themselves and their work into Wikipedia all the time by lying about themselves on social media or in an interview, such as falsely claiming that their debut single was a much bigger chart hit than it really was, or that they were nominated for an award they weren't really nominated for, or that they competed at the Olympics when they really didn't. So we can't just base our articles on what people say in an interview, and require the things they say to be independently reverified and assessed as significant by journalists writing third party content about the subject independently of its own self-published PR, so that we can ensure that we don't get turned into a self-promotional public relations platform. We simply have to always rely on a certain specific calibre of high-quality sourcing, that movie listings calendars and blogs and interviews aren't part of, because our entire validity as a project depends on ensuring that our information can be trusted by virtue of the quality and calibre and type of sourcing that's being used to support it. Bearcat (talk) 15:56, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Bearcat, per WP:UE, we need to have "an established usage" to move from the foreign-language default. The evidence is too limited and too mixed at this time. Both titles have some validity, but it's not like we have numerous reviews to lock in Temporaries. Collider and Cineuropa are the two reviews we have, and yet The New York Times here calls it Richelieu (and does not even say Temporaries, which is a pretty big omission). I checked the news this past week, and while there was no English-language coverage I could see, the French-language coverage consistently used Richelieu. It also looks like the upcoming Vancouver International Film Festival is calling it Richelieu too, as seen here. While I acknowledge it as a primary source, such sources can be appropriate for descriptive purposes. One of the key tenets of WP:AT is recognizability, and Temporaries, to me, can't be claimed to be dominantly recognizable. I think the evidence on hand is too limited to assume an established usage, especially not knowing the film's full distribution future. I'm completely open to the possibility that a future batch of English-language reviews will all use Temporaries and thus lock in the common name, but I don't think we can say for sure that will happen based on what we've seen so far. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:45, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

As I noted above, the New York Times source is neither a critical review nor production coverage about this film, but is merely a list of all the films premiering in an entire program at a film festival — so it's an acceptable source for the fact that it's screening at that festival, but it does not constitute evidence of what the film's English title is or isn't. As a person who does a lot of editing on film, I see this happen all the time: literally every film festival article I ever have any reason to edit at all, from Cannes through Berlin through Toronto through Cinéfest through Sundance through Karlovy Vary, always features at least one film (and not infrequently three or four films) where the sources for the initial lineup announcement used only the film's original foreign-language title, but then later on other sources were found verifying an English-language title that wasn't how the film had been listed in the film festival program announcement listicle itself.
This year's TIFF, for example, features a film by Marco Bellocchio that was listicled only as Rapito in the initial "TIFF announces program lineup" list, but then had to later get moved from R to K in its section when other sources put the English title Kidnapped on the table, so those other sources trump the TIFF program listicle, not vice versa.
The authoritative source for what is or isn't a film's English-language title isn't film festival announcement listicles, film festival catalogues or theatrical screening listings — it's what title are film critics and arts journalists using in coverage that is actually about the film itself (not just listing it), and Temporaries is still the only title we have seen in any English-language sources of the necessary calibre. Bearcat (talk) 14:40, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Here is an English language article just published using once again Richelieu, written by Montreal-based critic and Roger Ebert contributor Justine Peres Smith : https://cultmtl.com/2023/09/richelieu-is-a-harrowing-portrait-of-labour-abuses-in-quebecs-temporary-foreign-workers-program-pier-philippe-chevigny/ Pier-Philippe (talk) 16:55, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

This is definitely a good new source that lends support to using Richelieu. Furthermore, the dismissal of The New York Times calling it Richelieu is inappropriate. The article is under "Critic's Notebook" and is written by a film critic describing various standouts for the festival, including Richelieu. It is out-of-place to require a made-up higher standard of evidence. Nothing in WP:COMMONNAME supports this. The point is that if a person reads that article and learns about this film, they are likely to type Richelieu into the search. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 12:38, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

ACF, the company that licences the film's rights in Canada, has it listed as Richelieu both in French and in English : https://acf-film.com/en/fiche.php?film=47630

If the film's title was "Temporaries", wouldn't the rights manager list it as such? 74.59.83.87 (talk) 16:38, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

• Judging from this, it looks like Atlantic International Film Festival will show this as Richelieu tonight with the English-language blurb, "In this arresting and powerful drama, Ariane (a stellar Ariane Castellanos) attempts to distance herself from a checkered past with her ex-boyfriend by taking a job as a linguistic interpreter in a Québec factory. When management begins to bend ethical boundaries and labour laws, Ariane is caught between the demands of her employer and the rights of the Spanish-speaking migrant workers under her supervision." The Richelieu uses keep piling up with no Temporaries in sight. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 19:53, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

  A new article from the Georgia Straight (based in Vancouver) has been published today about the film being at VIFF. Again, they call it "Richelieu". https://www.straight.com/movies/meticulously-crafted-richelieu-unearths-iniquities-rooted-in-canadas-temporary-foreign 74.59.83.87 (talk) 20:52, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

  Good find. It is English-language coverage from The Georgia Straight and does not even say Temporaries. Closing admin should note this growth of evidence in favor of Richelieu. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 04:41, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

  Morelia film festival in Mexico has announced it's selection. They're obviously using English titles for all films, and they're listing it as "Richelieu" : https://moreliafilmfest.com/en/node/94541 Pier-Philippe (talk) 21:04, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

  News Media Canada writes about Richelieu here with no mention of Temporaries. The evidence continues to grow in support of making a move. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:11, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support. Reading over the discussion I have become convinced that Richelieu has become the common name for this film in reliable sources. Jenks24 (talk) 13:06, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Since the above discussion, these links use Richelieu:

• Mayworks.ca
• The Vancouver Arts Review
• TIFF
• Apple TV
• MUBI

I didn't see Temporaries pop up (I searched just for the director's name after September 2023). Thanks, Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 14:59, 23 May 2024 (UTC)