Talk:Tenerife airport disaster/Archive 4

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Similar accidents and incidents (section)

What is the basis for including these accidents? Has a reputable source said they were similar to Tenerife? --MarchOrDie (talk) 15:28, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Just to be clear, are you referring to the single link in the See also section? Or the two entries in the "Similar accidents and incidents" section? Assuming you mean the latter, I'm not aware of a reputable source pointing out the similarity, but is that really necessary? Is it not just common sense to note that they are similar? These two incidents do not have their own wiki articles, so they cannot be included in the "See also" section, hence this additional section is included specifically to give them an airing, and the given citations provide the evidence that is needed to draw the conclusion that they are similar to the Tenerife accident. So assuming that the "Similar accidents and incidents" section has been provided for this specific reason, we can draw some direction from MOS:SEEALSO which states: The links in the "See also" section might be only indirectly related to the topic of the article because one purpose of "See also" links is to enable readers to explore tangentially related topics. and Whether a link belongs in the "See also" section is ultimately a matter of editorial judgment and common sense. Also note that links in the actual "See also" section do not need to be backed up by a reputable source to say they are sufficiently related to the current article! Rodney Baggins (talk) 18:37, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

I heartily agree that "editorial judgment and common sense" will be required here. So, who says they are "similar to the Tenerife accident", apart from you? And aren't all runway collisions and near-collisions somewhat similar? Why not include the Linate Airport disaster? Far more similar. Or Air Canada Flight 759 if you want a near miss. Why these two that don't even have articles? --MarchOrDie (talk) 15:47, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

They do appear to be just a random selection of two events that involved collisions are near collisions, pretty sure they are more similar accidents. They are 13 in Category:Airliner accidents and incidents involving ground collisions. MilborneOne (talk) 17:43, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

The "Similar accidents and incidents" section in this article is an aberration that should be eliminated. We already cover both events twice: in the associated airline article and in the airport article. Duplicating information is already a bad idea, although sometimes inevitable; triplicating it is asking for chaos. Also, the inclusion criteria seem arbitrary − and this is true for the See also section as well, which typically over time tends to grow into a messy list of loosely related articles. All this stuff should be pruned mercilessly, leaving only the relevant lists, as it is now for this article, and little more. --Deeday-UK (talk) 22:35, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

@Deeday-UK: Thanks for your input and I can see your point. I was just about to post this and got an edit conflict with your post. So I'll post mine anyway, for the record... I should probably point out that it wasn't me that originally added that section in the first place, all I'm doing is defending the information from being casually dismissed from the article! It was added by Mjroots on 30 October 2016 (in diff 746578140). As this was over 2 years ago, it's probably only right that we try to reach a consensus on this matter, hopefully including the originator's opinion, rather than just dumping the section at one editor's say so. I can understand that a near miss (the second bullet) might not be particularly relevant, but the reader may be interested to know about other runway collisions that could be used as a comparison. For example, the Linate Airport disaster led to the deaths of all onboard both aircraft in the collision (114 people). But as the latter has its own article, it would be possible to just add it to the See also section. Incidentally, the link that's currently in the See also section (List of accidents and incidents involving commercial aircraft) seems rather too broad and doesn't help the reader to focus in on anything specific that might be compared to the Tenerife disaster. Maybe we could come up with a better See also list here and reach a consensus on appropriate articles to link through to, that more closely reflect the specific subject matter, i.e. runway collisions resulting in loss of life? Rodney Baggins (talk) 22:41, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

As I've been asked for my 2p worth, here it is. The section I added should contain a few articles at most. The two I added were one similar to Tenerife, and one that could so easily have been another Tenerife. Linate is probably a good example to include (I think it's the deadliest ground collision since Tenerife) but it really doesn't need to grow too much. Mjroots (talk) 05:51, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

→ I'll see if I can come up with some sort of alternative today to sort this out, and ask you what you think. Rodney Baggins (talk) 07:49, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
Hello again, I've been going through the main list of aviation accidents & incidents and these are the ones that I think bear more than a passing resemblance to the Tenerife disaster, and might therefore be of interest to our readers who are looking for similar articles. I suggest we could add these to the See also list, and remove the Similar accidents and incidents section altogether. (The only proviso would be that the two incidents in the doomed section, rather than being consigned to oblivion, should be added to the list of notable incidents requiring their own articles on the Aviation Project page.)

Key facts in the Tenerife disaster: happened at Los Rodeos airport + runway collision of two airliners + dense fog + multiple fatalities

So, logically speaking, these can be shown to be comparative accidents:

• Spantax Flight 275 – (single airliner), happened at Los Rodeos airport, dense fog, multiple fatalities (155)
• Iberia Airlines Flight 401 – (single aircraft), happened at Los Rodeos airport, dense fog, multiple fatalities (30)
• Madrid runway disaster – runway collision of two airliners, dense fog, multiple fatalities (93)
• Linate Airport disaster – runway collision of two aircraft (airliner & light aircraft), dense fog, multiple fatalities (118)
• 1990 Wayne County Airport runway collision – runway collision of two airliners, dense fog, multiple fatalities (8)
• 1972 Chicago–O'Hare runway collision – runway collision of two airliners, multiple fatalities (10)
• USAir Flight 1493 – runway collision of two aircraft (airliner & light aircraft), multiple fatalities (35)
• Western Airlines Flight 2605 – (single airliner), runway confusion, dense fog, multiple fatalities (73)

MOS:SEEALSO states that one purpose of these links is to enable readers to explore tangentially related topics. I think that just pointing readers to the main list is not particularly useful, and if we provide links to the most relevant articles it could save them a lot of time and effort wading through the main list for themselves. Rodney Baggins (talk) 10:01, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

I am not sure if it will help but should radio confusion be also a factor in determining the list. MilborneOne (talk) 10:06, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

We never did get round to reaching a consensus on this issue and it's been two years since we had this discussion. As two more "similar incidents" have since been added, would this be a good time to just delete the entire "Similar accidents and incidents" section and have done with it? Rodney Baggins (talk) 10:21, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

I would agree with deleting the section. Two of the listed incidents are just random, non-fatal incidents without any other clear similarities to Tenerife. The other two with Wikipedia articles could easily be mentioned in the See also section. ThatFlyingSquid (talk) 20:17, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Timing in "Cockpit and ATC tower communications" seems incorrect

Near the end of the "Cockpit and ATC tower communications", the time is not chronological anymore.

1706:40.6 → 1706:45.9 → 1706:43.5 → 1706:44.0 → 1706:47.4

Zenkutsu (talk) 02:49, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 5 April 2021 and 21 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Alex davis889.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 10:50, 17 January 2022 (UTC)