Talk:Thai numerals

Untitled

This is not correct (or maybe not just enough detailled). Take a look at the Thaï or French versions.

• ๑ (neung) is "1"
• หนึ่ง (neung) is "one" (written)

And both are pronounced "neung".

Another example with eleven :

• ๑๑ (sip et) is "11"
• สิบเอ็ด (sip et) is "eleven"

And both are pronounced "sip et".

Vberger 13:03, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Numbers above a trillion (10^12)

Are there any words in Thai for numbers above a trillion (10^12)? --84.61.6.185 18:45, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

and how about the more ancient Thai numeral derived from pali? the 'ek, to, tri, chatu...' it would be nice to know its relation with latin as well...

I've added the ancient numerals. I could use some help with their history. (I didn't know they were from Pali.) I've also added the ordinal numbers. I'm planning to work on "==Decimals and fractions==" (using #จุด# and #ใน# and #'tub'#) and "==Negative numbers==" (using ลบ#) next, but if anyone wants to do it, then go right ahead--the help would be much appreciated.

Wikky Horse 2006-10-22 14:57 UTC-6

One more thing: I'm not sure if I got the transcriptions correct in RTGS.

Wikky Horse

Clearly Chinese

Gentlemen, Thai numerals appear to be 99% related to Chinese numerals. Therefore it is just plain not fair not discussing their origin. Jidanni 02:12, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, they aren't from modern Chinese but you'll have to respect that the Thais did come from China. Archaic loan into their languages may have persisted and even naturalized as native numbers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.239.33.20 (talk) 22:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not clearly evidenced that Thai took numeral counting from Chinese. Although the relationship between Chinese and Thai exists, it cannot say if the Thai borrowed the Chinese. It can be the other way round as well. There are also enormouse evidence that Tai language (as a part of Bai Yue cultures) also influences Chinese language esp. in its Southern Dialect such as Cantonese. I don't recall it in detail but can give one example that I rememeber. It is widely accepted that the word "Kam" (gold) in Cantonese is taken from an archaic Tai language (คำ), such as in ทองคำ (gold), หอคำ (golden pavillion) or in other archaic names of various places and things. Therefore, as long as there's no enough evidence to support the claim about one-way direction of Chinese influence in Thai numerical counting, I don't think it's appropriate to put this information in Wikipedia. It's academically dangerous. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by U4268722 (talk • contribs) 11:15, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree, and will make this change tomorrow if no one objects. Pawyilee (talk) 10:59, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Zero to nine

The Thai name for zero, which also means center, depending on context, is clearly from Sanskrit śūnya, as are context-driven names for Alternate numbers 2 to 4, given below; but not one or its alternatives. Thai names for regular digits two through nine resemble those in Cantonese as spoken in Southern China, putative homeland of the Tai. Shown below, without implying who borrowed from whom, is a comparison between the two languages using Cantonese characters and pronunciations. The Thai transliteration uses the Royal Thai General System of Transcription (RTGS).

Nobody objected, so I posted it to the main article. Pawyilee (talk) 17:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Hey Pawyilee, I'm ready to help, thanks for inviting me, just tell me what you think needs to be done. Don't forget all the numbers from 10 up have been stolen from Khmer language (I just HAD to say that!). Cheers, Paxse (talk) 17:35, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

User:Jpatokal‎ "stole" Khmer 0-9 and put them on the table while we weren't looking. Pawyilee (talk) 14:23, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

'Numbers above a million' and 'Alternate numbers' sections

Hi, seeing as the Japanese and other language articles on numerals include the mostly unused ancient numerals over million and trillion and such all the way to infinity, even though they are basically obsolete, why don't you include the ancient Siamese ones too to be fair (by the way there is also no mention of the Thai numerical systems' native names such as ภัณฑสังขยา phanthasangkhaya and อักโขภินี akkhophini or the history of why they were adopted (Buddhism, recordkeeping problems during trade with the native number ล้านล้าน lanlan being often misinterpreted, etc)?

โกฏิ kot = ten million/10,000,000
ปโกฏิ pakot = hundred million/100,000,000
โกฏิปโกฏิ kottipakot = billion/1,000,000,000
นหุตะ nahuta = ten billion/10,000,000,000
นินนหุตะ ninnahuta = hundred billion/100,000,000,000
อักโขภนี akkhophani = quadrillion/1,000,000,000,000
พินทุ phinthu = ten quadrillion/10,000,000,000,000
อัพพุทะ apphutha = hundred quadrillion/100,000,000,000,000
นิรัพพุทะ nirapphutha = quintillion/1,000,000,000,000,000
อพพะ aphapha = ten quintillion/10,000,000,000,000,000
อฏฏะ atata = hundred quintillion/100,000,000,000,000,000
อหหะ ahaha = sextillion/1,000,000,000,000,000,000
กุมุทะ kumutha = ten sextillion/10,000,000,000,000,000,000
โสคันธิกะ sokhanthika = hundred sextillion/100,000,000,000,000,000,000
อุปปละ uppala = septillion/1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
ปุณฑรีกะ puntharika/pundarika = ten septillion/10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
ปทุมะ pathuma = hundred septillion/100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
กถานะ kathana = octillion/1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
มหากถานะ mahakathana = ten octillion/10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
อสังเขยยะ asangkhoeiya = hundred octillion/100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
...etc...until อสงไขย asongkhai = the largest number in Thai, meaning infinity, but literally, ten to the power of 140.

Plus, there are the other Pali/Sanskrit-derived numerals used only as prefixes (without the final ะ written of course) or in Siamese given names/surnames or in terminology for astrology, Buddhism and such:

ทสะ thasa = ten/deca-/10
สตะ sata = hundred/cent-/100
สหัสสะ sahatsa = thousand/kilo-/1,000
นยุตตะ nayutta = ten thousand/10,000
ลักขะ sakkha = hundred thousand/100,000
ทสสตสหัสสะ thotsatasahatsa = million/mill-/1,000,000

...and any other Pali-based numerical prefix; there are so many such as, randomly, for six/hexa-: ษัฏ sat, ษัฑ sat, ษัณ san, ษัษ sat, ษัษฏี satsati (meaning 'sixty'), โษฑศะ sota (meaning 'sixteen'), and thats just some starting with ษ....

I can't understand how to reference the information in Wiki way so only posting it in Discussion but you can find these things in any chunky enough Thai dictionary or Buddhist treatise. One for example is: "สังขยาปกาสกปกรณ์และฎีกา: การตรวจชำระและการศึกษาเชิงวิเคราะห์" by Chulalongkorn Uni, Dept. of East Asian Languages (in Thai: วิทยานิพนธ์อักษรศาสตรมหาบัณฑิต ภาควิชาภาษาตะวันออก จุฬาลงกรณ์มหาวิทยาลัย). The prefixes though are everywhere in any good dictionary, even the half-assed Royal Thai Institute's one online. I hope someone Wiki-literate enough will add them..I would but I have been deleted at times from not understanding how to reference... Cheers Kyrinth (talk) 15:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

There are also more alternate numbers. The Thai wikis th:1, th:2, th:3, and so on have alternate pronunciations in the names (ชื่อเรียก) section. I might try reading them at another time, but there's also the danger of cluttering this wiki with too many tables and lists.

Wikky Horse (talk) 07:29, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Spelling

the vowel structure i see on the page is incorrect. it is Neung ,not ue in the vowel set its eu. And it is See not Si or Yi its Yee Sip. The vowel structure in the thai alphabet does not recognize it that way. As many new people will write Pi , that is incorrect its EE a double e. There is alot of incorrect Thai-English spellings that need to be cleared up on the page. Soon not Sun ,. 0 = SOON , 1 = NEUNG , 2 = SAUNG/SONG , 3 = SAHM , 4 = SEE , 5 = HAH , 6 = HOK , 7 = JET , 8 = PAET/BPAET , 9 = GAO , 10 = SIP/SIB , 11 = SIP ET , 20 YEE SIP and on Kongkit (talk) 00:36, 28 April 2010 (UTC)KongkitKongkit (talk) 00:36, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

About the vowel structure you may be right: it deviates somewhat from Thai school teaching. Especially some diphthongs ending in ย or ว have been added.

However the transcription system (RTGS) used in WP is defined by the Royal Institute of Thailand. Many language guides each use their own inconsistent spellings. −Woodstone (talk) 06:10, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

As in they say variance from north to south , i am northern thai born and raised and dialect does change from north to south . I think alot of it is because most of the english teachers are not from Thailand as i have seen in many cases so the actual english spelling of thai words are misconstrude. As in many cases as we refer to Thailand by its original name SIAM , which is properly pronounced "See-Ahm" , and not Sai-Am as many say. ee , eu , ai , ia , au , ie are a few of the proper vowels. To point fact to view , as in one my family members name , "Thongdee" spelled in english , not Thongdi. Kongkit (talk) 02:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC)KongkitKongkit (talk) 02:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

There are many ways to transcribe Thai. The many existing language books use a bewildering variety of systems, some of which are not even internally consistent. However the Thai Royal Institute has codified a system that is clear, well defined, science based, and often employed in Thailand. You can find it here (in Thai). Using it throughout WP gives consistency and clarity. −Woodstone (talk) 04:17, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

That is all nice but even there , there are big differences from the first and second actual book. To which the first and second hand book not a transcript on the net , were spelled as i have displayed that. Even the 1999 and 2001 addition varied greatly from the one shown.NOrth Thailand where i am from , altho widely still speaking in northern dialect to which southern dialect and Lao language spawned from , still use the previous versions because of its accuracy.Kongkit (talk) 03:42, 4 May 2010 (UTC)KongkitKongkit (talk) 03:42, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Hopefully, you can agree that for WP it is best to use a consistent, recognised and published system throughout. Mixing with older versions, regional variants, or personally preferred systems is confusing for the readers. Nevertheless, for names that are overwhelmingly known in different spelling, exceptions are made. For example Bhumibol, not Phumiphon. −Woodstone (talk) 07:26, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Well i take it you are not Thai , nor of thai born origin editing this page. Another point is case is this , Check out thai/lao/khmer , mainly thai karaoka on youtube , i even have a page (http://www.youtube.com/user/KongKit) not even they follow what you call is "consistant" , but what is dialectually accurate. For this reason i find your argument on using that basis very flawed as do most older and traditional thai people who do translate , as i have and we do for movies in stores for patrons who cannot read traditional thai/lao/lanna/essarn/khmer dialect but speak it can read the titles of movies in english. There are many inaccuracies in teh english written pages on thai topics but , there are not enough actual thais to correct this so i'll let this topic rest Kongkit (talk) 15:25, 4 May 2010 (UTC)KongkitKongkit (talk) 15:25, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Please do not make personal remarks about other users. It detracts from the main argument.

RTGS is a system that works. If there's another well-documented system in large use, then that can be considered, but until then, please use RTGS. Some of your vowel suggestions can be seen in the Variants column in the table in Thai_alphabet#Vowels, but for consistency, we want to use standard RTGS. Wikky Horse (talk) 23:44, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Thai Numerals are identical to Khmer

I think it'll be noteworthy to add something referencing them. Its clearly nearly, if not exactly identical. Thai http://www2.hawaii.edu/~hlibcat/images/14.gif Khmer http://www.mekong.net/cambodia/images/khmernum.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.239.87.131 (talk) 20:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

You can compare them in the chart at Hindu-Arabic numeral system#List of symbols in contemporary use. You need appropriate fonts to see it. - TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:05, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Usage!

The reader does not get any clue in how to USE these numerals. I sifted through the whole huge article, but there was never a Thai numeral together with a Thai noun to see some combinations like "nine children", "22 students" etc. Since there are likely to be caveats for the learner, this MUST be in the article. -andy 85.179.162.101 (talk) 00:44, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

FromThai language — Plurals are expressed by adding classifiers, used as measure words (ลักษณนาม), in the form of noun-number-classifier (ครูห้าคน, "teacher five person" for "five teachers"). While in English, such classifiers are usually absent ("four chairs") or optional ("two bottles of beer" or "two beers"), a classifier is almost always used in Thai (hence "chair four item" and "beer two bottle").

See also Wiktionary category Thai classifiers.

I agree that this should be included in this article, but don't feel like doing it write now as it is nearly midnight local time. Also, I do not know of a rule, much less a source, for when numerals should be used as opposed to being spelled out; or, for that matter, when to use Thai versus Arabic numerals. --Pawyilee (talk) 15:54, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Numerative noun/classifier (Thai: ลักษณนาม)

In a somewhat belated response to the plea, above, I've changed the lede to add

...or numerative classifier (Thai: ลักษณนาม (ลัก-สะ-หฺนะ-นาม lak-sa-na-nam), although variations to this pattern occur and there really is no hierarchy among such classifiers.[1].

I also added external links giving 11 and 38 entries by way of example. The trouble is, each such classifier is also a noun in its own right. Thai Wiktionary has ลักษณนาม defined in Thai, and English Wiktionary includes it as a red link under both classifier and measure word, but neither Thai nor English Wikipedia have articles on the subject. To expand Wiktionary category Thai classifiers, a List of Thai numerative nouns is needed, with an explanation in the lede as to how these function as classifiers or measure words, with a table giving the stem noun and the nouns each is used to count. Such a list will show some counted nouns under more than classifier, and should resemble the list of Units of Issue (UI) used in Electronic Data Interchange, the US DLA and GSA, though these are far more rational than the Thai list would ever be. Nor will it ever be complete, as new nouns entering the language garner classifications intuitive to the Thai. It should also noted that other Southeast and East Asian languages use similar schemes. Useful search terms are "Numerative Noun" and "Numerative Classifier". --Pawyilee (talk) 17:15, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Numerative noun is not the best term, since these words not only used for counting, but also for determination (pointing) (like for "this" or "that"). I think it's better to stick to classifier as descriptive term. −Woodstone (talk) 17:35, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Used with a demonstrative for determination, specifically instead of pointing? The distinction could be important: . List of gestures currently says, Although some gestures, such as the ubiquitous act of pointing, differ little from one place to another, finger pointing in just about any Southeast Asian context is rude, and that may extend to East Asian settings as well. In any case, use of Thai classifiers with Thai demonstratives could be important, but hard to reference. --Pawyilee (talk) 14:18, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Teochow

I added a 'citation needed' to the statement that Thai numbers 'are even closer to Minnan (Teochew/Hokkien), may be because most Thai Chinese are Teochew.' To me, this seems to imply that numeracy for the Thais was something that came with the ancestors of the Thai-Chinese, i.e. that the Thais did not have any independent number system prior to contact with the Chinese. I imagine a just as logical reason for the similarity could be that these languages are related, and therefore have similar names for their numbers. V85 (talk) 23:01, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

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