Talk:Thamud

Plagiarism

I’m currently trying to make something useful of this article, but it’s an uphill battle. Thought it might be worthwhile to start a list here which I’ll add to as I find sources for some of the text.

• Encyclopædia Britannica Online
• Perished Nations by Harun Yahya

• Thamud in the Qur'an
• Archaeological Finds about Thamud

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 08:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Hegra

Although a few sources do seem to say that Pliny identified Hegra with the Thamud, it really doesn’t seem that clear...

Nabataeis Thimaneos iunxerant veteres, nunc sunt Taveni, Suelleni, Arraceni, Areni, oppidum in quo omnis negotiatio eius convenit; Hemnatae, Aualitae, oppida Domata, Hegra; Tamudaei, oppidum Badanatha; Carrei, oppidum Cariati; Achoali, oppidum Foth, ac Minaei a rege Cretae Minoe, ut existumant, originem trahentes, quorum Carmaei.

— C. Plini Secundi Naturalis historiae libri XXXVII (Julius Sillig 1851), Google Book Search

Google Book Search

Nabataeis Thimaneos iunxerunt veteres, nunc sunt Taveni, Suelleni, Araceni, Arreni oppido in quod negotiatio omnis convenit, Hemnatae, Avalitae, oppida Domata, Haegra, Thamudaei, oppidum Baclanaza, Chariattaei, Toali, oppidum Phodaca, Minaei, a rege Cretae Minoe, ut existimant, originem trahentes, quorum Carmei;

— Pliny the Elder: the Natural History, LacusCurtius at University of Chicago

Liber VI

Up to the Nabatæi the ancients joined the Thimanei; at present they have next to them the Taveni, and then the Suelleni, the Arraeeni, and the Areni, whose town is the centre of all the commerce of these parts. Next come the Hemnatæ, the Aualitæ, the towns of Domata and Hegra, the Tamudæi, with the town of Badanatha, the Carrei, with the town of Cariati, the Achoali, with the town of Foth, and the Minæi, who derive their origin, it is supposed, from Minos, king of Crete, and of whom the Carmæi are a tribe.

— Pliny the Elder, The Natural History (eds. John Bostock, M.D., F.R.S., H.T. Riley, Esq., B.A.), Perseus Digital Library at Tufts University

Perseus Digital Library

Consequently I’ve removed the following...

The Greek geographer Pliny's descriptions agree with this. Pliny wrote that Domatha and [[Meda'in Saleh|Hegra]] were the locations where Thamud resided, and this latter makes up the city of Hijr today.<ref>"Hicr", Islam Ansiklopedisi: Islam Alemi, Tarihi, Cografya, Etnografya ve Bibliyografya Lugati, (Encyclopedia of Islam: Islamic World, History, Geography, Ethnography, and Bibliography Dictionary) Vol. 5/1, p. 475</ref>

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 09:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Unreferenced claims (to be) removed

Thamud mentioned in...

• Assyrian annals (Tamudi) - vague, does this mean the 715 BC inscription?
• a Greek temple inscription from the northwest Hijaz of 169 AD
• a 5th-century Byzantine source
• Old North Arabian graffiti around Tayma
• as well as (arguably) an Eblaite tablet - this sounds controversial and must have a source

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 11:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

More material without sources

I’ve reverted edits by 217.132.40.50 replacing the unreferenced material mentioned above. It would be great if you could find sources for these and include more information, because they sound interesting, but until you can they don’t meet Wikipedia standards for inclusion.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 03:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

ibn al-Athir and Ibn Khaldun

ibn al-Athir mention storys about the Thamud people in his book The Complete History and Ibn Khaldun in his book " Ibn Khaldun history " ... here in the article ar:ثمود —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.138.199.4 (talk • contribs) 23:08, 24 May 2008

Prophet Saleh

According to the Qur'an, Saleh was a Semite born nine generations after Noah and the flood; he is described as having been born and raised among the Thamud, a group of people who lived in an area between Palestine and the Hijaz. The Thamud are said to have lived in stone houses carved into mountains, and to have worshipped idols made from stone. Saleh tried to convince his people not to worship idols and to embrace Tawhid, but they refused, insisting that Saleh obtain a miracle; the narrative goes on to state that God responded by creating a female camel (the she-camel of God), which the Thamud were allowed to milk for sustenance, but were not allowed to harm. Despite the instruction, the Thamud slaughtered the camel, so God ordered Saleh to leave his people; when Salah had complied by leaving, there was a large thunderous sound that destroyed the Thamud. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.138.156.60 (talk) 04:05, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't make such a claim about Quran that offends me as a Muslim, where does Quran say this? Thamud was in Yemen and shem generation is in Yemen and came from Yemen SharabSalam (talk) 17:41, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Thamud

The Prophet Saleh

The tribe of Thamud was living happily in the land of Hajar which was located between Syria and Hejaz. They were enjoying the green gardens, big springs and rivers, the productive land and beneficial animals of this country. But gradually idolatry and corruption got over spread among the people of this tribe and consequently God appointed Salih, a pious man of a noble and respectful family in Hajar, who was quite well-known for his knowledge and wisdom in the tribe to guide the people. Therefore, Salih addressed the whole tribe and said : Salih : " O' my people! Worship the Almighty for he is the Most kind and there is no god rather than him. It is He who has created you from the clay and made this land productive for you. Ask forgiveness from Him and repent to His greatness for He is so close to you and the only one that will respond to your prayers. Remember the time when He made you the successor of Aad tribe and placed you on the earth where you now build your palaces on its flat lands and form houses out of its mountains. Remember God's favors and do not choose the way of the corrupt." People answered : " O' Salih! you used to be a wise and logical man in this tribe and we thought we could depend on your wisdom at the time of terrible events and calamities. Now you are asking us to reject what our fathers used to worship. We shall thus be quite dubious about what you are inviting us to. " Salih : " You have to fear God. Accept my words and don't obey the immoderators for they spread corruption on the earth and never try making any reformation. People : " You're undoubtedly bewitched and have lost your wisdom and sense of logic. You are a human being just as we are, Aren't you? What advantage or superiority have you got over us that have made you wiser than us and enabled you to claim that you are a prophet appointed by God. If your words are true, bring us a sign or a miracle to prove the righteousness of your claim. " So they asked Salih to take a woolly red she camel which was ten-months old out of the mountain. Salih requested God to do so and in Great God's will a she camel with those characteristic, stepped out of the rocks. At this time God sent Salih a revelation saying : Revelation: " Inform your tribe of the God's will which permits you to use the water of this village alternatively with this camel, that is one day you shall use the water and one day the camel. So Salih said to the tribe : Salih : " You people! This is the camel of God which shall serve as a token of His presence and a miracle to prove the righteousness of my prophet hood and invitation. So leave this camel on its own to graze in God's land and feed on the grass and vegetables. Don't do it any harm for otherwise a great torment will soon fall upon you." However, the people didn't leave their obstinacy and revolt and revealed their disbelief in Salih quite clearly and as strong as they could, except for a few people who accepted his invitation and believed in him. Finally people decided to kill the she-camel, but each time the fear of torment prevented them from taking any action. One day, some young men who were motivated by women of the tribe got determined to kill the camel and set out to do so. While the camel was busy drinking water, they shot her by an arrow which hit it in the leg and caused her to fall down. Then they drew their swords, attacked and killed her. Salih coming to know this turned to people and said : Salih : " Enjoy your life in your houses for three days for you will have a terrible death after these days. This is a certain and exact promise that will not be belied or delayed.

The people of the tribe neglected his words and went on with their revolt and disobedience. They even decided to kill Salih but didn't find the time for God responded to their trickery and conspiracy with His torment soon after. There came a lightning on them which changed them to lifeless corpses in their houses. And this was a due punishment for their oppression and revolt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.138.156.60 (talk) 04:11, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Thamud is an Arabic tribe which appeared in the 8th century B.C, as was attested at the time of the Assyrian King Sargon II through his Inscriptions. Thamud later lost its political power , but the official history, as shown by Assyrian inscriptions, demonstrates that Thamud continued to exist during the 7th century B.C. Also, writings by various Greek and Roman geographers who wrote about Arabia, said Thamud continued until the 5th century A.D. as a politically-organized tribe which occupied a large part of northern Arabia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.125.136.46 (talk) 11:51, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

This page is a nonsense magnet

It’s depressing to return to this page and find more silly, poorly sourced material added. Please people, at least try to be a little encyclopaedic!

This article really needs another clean up.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 15:03, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

You are right. When I started reading this I could hardly believe my eyes. The author talks of the Biblical prophets as if they were historical persoanlities. This is Kindergarten. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:120B:7F5:4340:4158:CA28:EECA:3C8A (talk) 15:54, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

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Materials without sources

Thamud was in Hijaz? That claim isn't even in the source beside that the article now contradicts itself in other sections where it says Thamud was in Yemen SharabSalam (talk) 17:37, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

my editing

my editing was removed, why ?

there not place in Saudi Arabia call northern Hejaz , where you come these name?

as the map here show Thamud in Saudi Arabia but you writing other far country, Yemen? are you sure? , pls check the middle east countries map before remove my editing جرهام (talk) 00:00, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

@جرهام I'm sure the editor who reverted your edit will do their best to make sure they didn't do so in error. In the meantime, I'd like to encourage you to tone down the aggressive attitude. This is never acceptable on Wikipedia, but as you are a new editor, it generally behooves you to be humble towards more senior editors. I believe you practice respect towards elders in your culture, am I right? Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 01:12, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

The reasoning the edits were undone are as follows:

• Hatnotes, the statement at the top starting with "This article is about..." was linked to another article of a town with the same name. Hatnotes are often used to guide a person who is looking for an article yet arrives at a similarly named article. The edit changed the location from a town in Yeman to target an article which does not exist. Even if that Saudi Arabian article existed, both location should be shown.
• Hatnotes should only link to existing articles
• This article is about the tribe/confederation which existed between the 8th century BC through the 5th century AD. It did not exist within Saudi Arabia, which was not formed until 1932. As such, the map and location refer to the location at the time of the existence of the Kingdom of Thamud, not the current location based on present–day geopolitics.

I hope this clears up some confusion.--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 23:16, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

See also

Hi @User:Str1977, it appears you are engaged in an edit war with me about the inclusion of Iram of the Pillars in this article, and your last argument in defense of your position is "you can't have it both ways", which I don't find compelling, especially as I provided a reason for why I do think the topic should be left in the See also section. Can you please explain your reason for fighting over this? Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 13:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Per MOS:SEEALSO: "One purpose of "See also" links is to enable readers to explore tangentially related topics; however, articles linked should be related to the topic of the article or be in the same defining category." This is a perfect example of a closely related topic a closely related subject which does not belong linked within the article but is quite related.--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 14:02, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

I am not actually engaged in an edit-war. "See also"-links should be avoided and are the mark of an article that isn't as good as it could be. I repeatedly tried to integrate the link into the article, which you reverted because it the links were "unrelated". When I removed the "unrelated" link, you again reverted arguing the opposite. If you cannot put the relationship between the topics into words, I guess there isn't one.

Whereas I can live with either option, it seems like you refuse any change to this article and hence I remembered you about WP:OWNership. Str1977 ^(talk) 23:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

@Str1977, please read above comment by User:Loriendrew. Currently, it appears that two people support the inclusion of Iram of the Pillars under See also, and one is opposed. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 03:23, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I have read Loriendew's comment, which you rather take in a one-sided manner. If the topics are "quite related" then spill it out.

Alas, you still don't seem interested in discussing this as you so eager to to declare a result after three editors have commented, the two of us included. Str1977 ^(talk) 06:38, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm not reading anything in a one-sided manner—the import of Loriendrew's comment seems clear to me. Additionally, you seem more interested in finger-pointing than anything else, so I'm losing interest in discussing with you. If nobody else comments on this thread, I will re-add Iram of Pillars to See also. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 13:56, 17 April 2023 (UTC)