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Talk:The Autobiography of Malcolm X/Archive 1

< Talk:The Autobiography of Malcolm X
Latest comment: 14 years ago by Protonk in topic Stopping the edit war about the lead: administrative restriction
Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

Huh?

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The Autobiography of Malcolm X was written by Alex Haley between 1964 and 1965, based on interviews conducted shortly before Malcolm's death (and with an epilogue for after it)....

What is the meaning of what is in the parenthesis? I was going to attempt to make it syntactical, but I can't even figure out what it's supposed to say. MusicMaker5376 07:50, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

The Book

This substantial stub expansion was written by McDogm, un-logged in as a result of computer cookie problems. It needs a link to Cornell Wild.

McDogm Apr 28 2005 2014 est usa

Publication date?

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

This article says it was published in 1965, while the Alex Haley article gives a publication date of 1972. Please advise. AxelBoldt 17:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Intercollegiate Review

Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I see no significance to the reference to the Intercollegiate review. Following the link simply produces a series of highly partisan bashing of various books, in which "Autobiography" in incidentally mentioned. It seems of only transitory value, and I'm removing it from article. -Raskolnikov

I agree. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 05:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Time magazine

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

"Time magazine top ten most important nonfiction books of the 20th century"...anyone have the link to the full list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.229.174.44 (talk) 05:54, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Malcolm X's opinion of his Autobiography

Latest comment: 15 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

During a recent program on CSPAN's Book TV,[1] wherein Ishmael Reed interviews Mark Rudd, Reed interjects that Malcolm X disavowed the Autobiography before he died. Probably not notable enough to put into the article as-is - but might be something a dogged researcher could follow up on. (Might this relate to Manning Marable's book, cited in the article?) Just something to consider, maybe. --Davecampbell (talk) 22:44, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. The Autobiography was published after Malcolm X's assassination, but maybe he said something negative about it before he died. Many people are eagerly awaiting Marable's book, which promises all sorts of revelations concerning Haley and the Autobiography. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 00:10, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Playboy

Latest comment: 14 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

It first appeared in Playboy, yes? How much of it? Over how many issues? First publication seems notable, but I don't have sources for it. (I learned about the Playboy thing from the article on Haley.) Thmazing (talk) 17:50, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Inaccuracies

Latest comment: 14 years ago7 comments4 people in discussion

Just because the book is important doesn't mean its inaccuracies can't be listed. Malcolm X was known for exaggerating events to serve his rhetorical needs---a wikipedia article should be balanced enough to acknowledge that the book contains inaccuracies proffered by Malcolm X himself, and not due to any error by Haley. Both of the facts listed--the palming of the bullet and the misstating the historical nature of Atilla the Hun---are valid criticisms of Malcom X's autobiography. The final chapters added by Haley after Malcolm's death detail the "palming the bullet" story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.27.111.123 (talk) 01:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Even if the criticisms are valid, they can't be added to the article unless there is a source stating who has made them. ... discospinster talk 02:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
You describe the book's "many inaccuracies" as "notabl[e]". If they are significant, it shouldn't be hard to find a verifiable reliable source that makes those criticisms. Without a source, that's just your own personal commentary, which is inappropriate for an encyclopedia article. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 02:41, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, that's not logical. 1st. The story about Malcolm X "palming the bullet" is IN THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY'S POSTHUMUS CHAPTER. In other words, the citing the story would involve citing the article itself. 2nd. THE STORY ABOUT ATILLA THE HUN IS LINKED TO WIKIPEDIA'S ARTICLE ON ATILLA. You're just trying to stifle criticism of X. Note how you don't allow anything bad in the article criticizing him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.27.111.123 (talk) 15:18, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

In the first case, if the claim is made in the book itself, then the citation would be the book. In the second case, unfortunately one Wikipedia article cannot use another Wikipedia article as its source (or any open-wiki-type site for that matter). If the claim in Atilla the Hun has a citation, then you can use that citation for this article as well. It's not a matter of "allowing" criticism; it's about verifying claims, whether they are positive or negative. If someone added that Malcolm X developed a cure for cancer, that would be removed too, if it wasn't referenced! ... discospinster talk 15:34, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
First, Malcolm didn't have a daughter named Attila. Her name is Attallah. Second, nobody would mistake his Autobiography for a book of ancient history (he makes a three word, parenthetical mention of the sack of Rome*), or a work on genetics (he mentions the work of Gregor Mendel), etc. Including a paragraph in the article about Attila and the sack of Rome gives WP:Undue weight to an insignificant point in the book.
* "Attallah, our oldest daughter, was born in November 1958. She's named for Attilah the Hun (he sacked Rome)." — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 17:48, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I think that something has been missed here, especially with the "palming the bullet" story. It seems to be implied above that Malcolm lied about the bullet, and Haley corrected it in the end. Note that the entire book was written by Haley. Malcolm told Haley the story about pulling the trigger three times. Later, once their friendship had been solidified, and Haley had, for the better part, gained Malcolm's trust (an extreme rarity), Malcolm admitted to palming the bullet. In describing the conversation, Haley almost makes it seem like Malcolm admitted this to him in a moment of light comic relief. Haley leaves the story as Malcolm first told it, in keeping with the motif of Malcolm's activities, and mindset at the time. Later in the book, when it is learned that Malcolm palmed the bullet, the reader almost has a sense of relief. This is largely the same sense the reader finds later in the book, upon learning that Malcolm was not a racist-that he felt disillusioned with the NOI's (then) teachings about whites after seeing white Muslims in Mecca, or that he regretted telling the young caucasian girl who asked him what she could do to help, "Nothing". This wasn't Malcolm lying in the book. It was Haley leaving the story as it was told to him, then correcting it, as it was later told to him, to make for better reading.Mk5384 (talk) 06:35, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Authorship

Latest comment: 14 years ago49 comments7 people in discussion

The Autobiography of Malcom X was written by Alex Haley, with assistance from Malcolm X. The first line of the article stated this exactly backwards. I've noted that this was only changed 2 months ago, after having stood correctly for 6 years. Mk5384 (talk) 05:54, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

The book says "By Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley", and that's what the article should say. In the section "Writing the Autobiography", I made it clear that Haley wrote the book based on his interviews with Malcolm X. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 16:39, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
The book says "by Alex Haley with Malcolm X". You changed this 2 months ago, after it stood correctly for 6 years.Mk5384 (talk) 19:26, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
[http://www.amazon.com/Autobiography-Malcolm-X/dp/0140028242/ Here's] the book. What does it say on the cover? "With the assistance of Alex Haley". — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 19:32, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Here it is at Google Books. "with the assistance of Alex Haley". — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 19:35, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
After I provided two links that show Haley is credited only with "assistance", how can you cite the Autobiography as a source for your claim that Haley is the author? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 19:47, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm holding a copy in front of me. After 6 years, you (I'm an admin & I pretend my name's Malik Shabazz, so I can't be wrong) decide to change something that's correctly stood because it sounds better to you that way? What a goddamn joke this place is.Mk5384 (talk) 19:51, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
After six years (I'll take your word for it) I changed it because it was wrong. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 19:52, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
No. You are wrong. And you think that your position as an admin, as well as your personal deification of Malcolm X give you the right to change what you feel is an embarassing fact; i.e. the universally known truth that The Autobiography of Malcolm X was written by Alex Haley.Mk5384 (talk) 19:55, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
I don't know what you're talking about. The book says "with the assistance of Alex Haley", and that's what I changed the article to say. Out of curiosity, what edition of the Autobiography do you have? I have several, including the first edition, and they all say "with the assistance of Alex Haley". — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 19:58, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
The Autobiography of Malcolm X: As Told to Alex Haley. Not "by Malcolm X, with the assistance of Alex Haley". It doesn't get much more clear than that. And the worst part is, that you, yourself, admit in the article, that Alex Haley wrote the book. Yet, for the lede, because it looks better that way to Malik Shabazz, you want to pretend that Malcolm wrote it himself.Mk5384 (talk) 20:26, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Precisely. Malcolm X's book, written with the assistance of Alex Haley. Can you point me to a Wikipedia article about another autobiography in which the ghostwriter is given primary credit? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:33, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Semi-independent third opinion -- ghostwritten books should generally be listed under the primary author's name, not the ghostwriter's name. Your mileage may vary.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:42, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Independent fourth opinion: list the exact quotes from each edition in the body, citing the exact edition and page of the book. Not in the lede. In the lede write "by Malcolm X and Alex Haley" and let the detailed explanation be in the body. That's what we do when reliable sources disagree, we don't pick one, we list them both, with sufficient explanation that the user has a basic idea of the disagreement and can then research it further if he has a mind to. --GRuban (talk) 21:38, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
There are no sources that disagree. This is not the Book of Genesis. Saying that sources disagree about who wrote this book is like saying that sources disagree about who won the American Revolution.Mk5384 (talk) 22:30, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
The part of this which I find the most disturbing, is the fact that User:Malik Shabazz himself, says in the article proper, "Haley wrote the book based on more than 50 conversations with Malcolm X, ect. I have never heard anyone, prior to this, assert that it was "by Malcolm X".Mk5384 (talk) 22:50, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm coming here from Wikipedia:3O where a third opinion was requested -- this can't be 3O'd because this isn't a dispute solely between two editors. You've had two other editors weigh in on this already. Third-opinion providers provide an opinion solely for the purposes of adding a third opinion to a two-person mix -- and said opinions have no special authority, do not count as tiebreakers, and don't count towards consensus. I'd suggest you move to the next stage of dispute resolution. Look for a relevant WikiProject and set up a RfC there, and/or go to the Mediation Cabal and/or Mediation Committee. WCityMike 22:57, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Here's a scholarly source: http://www.jstor.org/pss/2711638

Malcolm X, with the assistance of Alex Haley... Malcolm X told the story of his life to Alex Haley in a series of interviews that took place over a period of nearly two years. Malcolm read the text of the Autobiography, approving and correcting the chapters as Haley wrote them, although he did not live to see the last revisions made in the manuscript. Evidence both internal and external to the Autobiography suggests that Haley kept to the agreement he made with Malcom -- to include nothing Malcolm had not said and to say everything Malcolm wanted included.

That pretty much settles it, in my opinion. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 23:05, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

That settles it in my opinion, as well. Somehow, I get the strange feeling though, that for you, "that settles it" that Malcolm X wrote it.Mk5384 (talk) 23:08, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
No, it settles it for me that Malcolm X should be credited as the primary author. Are you planning on heading over to The Ashes of Eden next to argue that Shatner didn't write it? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 23:11, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
I know next to nothing about Star Trek, so no, I'm not planning on doing that. I did have a quick look at the article, and it says, "co-written" by William Shatner. I truly have no idea who wrote that book. I do know who wrote The Autobiography of Malcolm X.Mk5384 (talk) 23:26, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
As I had written in the article, based on what the book says (confirmed by this source), the book is by Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley. I also wrote that "Haley wrote The Autobiography of Malcolm X based on more than 50 in-depth interviews he conducted with Malcolm X" (note the Wikilink for "wrote"), just as the source says. Ghostwriters don't get credit for authorship, although they are often credited "with" or (in this case) "with the assistance of" or "as told to". — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:17, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
PS: Thank you Sarek for finding an academic paper about the Autobiography. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:19, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps it might help to point out that Hillary Clintons book It Takes a Village was also (partly) written by somebody else, to quote the publisher [2]

The book will actually be written by Barbara Feinman, a journalism professor at Georgetown University in Washington. Ms. Feinman will conduct a series of interviews with Mrs. Clinton, who will help edit the resulting text.

Note that in this case the ghostwriter was not even acknowledged in the book, which caused some controversy. I am sure dozens of additional examples are available and they all have in common that the ghostwriter is not credited as the primary author, so I don't see why this one should be any different. If you believe injustice is done to ghostwriters and a wikipolicy should be set up to change this behaviour throughout wikipedia please say so. I don't mind starting a proposal at WP:MOS for you to change it, although I have my doubts whether it will succeed. Yoenit (talk) 23:53, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
I saw nothing at WP:MOS about this. However, I may very well have missed something. The injustice done here is not to ghostwriters, nor is it to the respective legacies of Malcolm X or Alex Haley. It is to our readers. As long as the incorrect facts are permitted to stand in the article (in the lede, no less), those who come here to be educated will likely leave with the false impression that the book is by Malcolm X.Mk5384 (talk) 09:16, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Break

Support for Haley co-authorship. This source says co-authored [3] --GabeMc (talk) 02:47, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Support for Haley co-authorship. The NY Times source includes the Autobiography as one of his "writings". [4] --GabeMc (talk) 02:57, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Malik, if Amazon is an URS then why is Google a RS? --GabeMc (talk) 02:58, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
1) Haley is credited simply as "with the assistance of Alex Haley". See the academic source cited above.
2) Who said Google was a RS? I was using Google Books to show your friend Mk5384 the front page of the book, where Alex Haley is credited "with ... assistance", not as co-author. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:04, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Support for Haley co-authorship. This source refers to the autobiography as "Haley's first major book", [5]

More Support On September 20th 1970 the New York Times called Haley the co-author of the Autobiography. "At a luncheon yesterday afternoon, Alex Haley, co-author of "The Autobiography of Malcolm X," related how he traced This own family lineage from his native..." [6]
Support this source calls Haley the co-author...[7]
I'm not sure what the point of your argument is. The book is an autobiography, and it is attributed to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley". Here is its entry at WorldCat. We're not going to change the article to attribute the book to "Malcolm X and Alex Haley" because that's not how authorship is attributed in reliable sources. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:29, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Does WorldCat list one or two authors? --GabeMc (talk) 03:35, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Support The Encyclopædia Britannica calls the book Haley's "first major work"...[8]

The article already says it was Haley's first book. You haven't answered my question: What are you trying to accomplish? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:54, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
I am trying to establish that the vast majority of sources give Haley a co-authorship credit, Wiki does not, but should.--GabeMc (talk) 03:56, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Support The UXL Encyclopedia of World Biography Here says "His first book, The Autobiography of Malcolm X (1965), which he cowrote with Malcolm X..."

What specifically would you like the article to say, and can you produce a reliable source that supports it? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:05, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
I suggest "The Autobiography of Malcolm X is a 1965 book by human rights activist Malcolm X co-authored by Alex Haley." replace "The Autobiography of Malcolm X is a 1965 book by human rights activist Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley."

As far as a reliable source that refers to Haley as a co-author...here are some [9], [10], [11]--GabeMc (talk) 04:28, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

And do you have a reliable source that describes the book as "by Malcolm X co-authored by Alex Haley"? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:38, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Here is a link from Georgetown.edu [12] that states: "Millions continue to read the Autobiography of Malcolm X (1965), co-authored by Alex Haley."

Answers.com says [13], "The Autobiography of Malcolm X was published after his death in 1965 and became a best-seller; the book was co-written by Alex Haley,..."

The Crisis Sep-Oct 2002 [14]calls is "co-authored with journalist Alex Haley..."

The Concise Focal Encyclopedia of Photography [15] says, "...book such as The Autobiography of Malcolm X, co-authored by Alex Haley."

The Oxford companion to twentieth-century literature in English [16] states:"He co-authored The Autobiography of Malcolm X..."

Even after it is sourced, Malik Shabazz continues to revert to the version he prefers.Mk5384 (talk) 05:36, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Here are more than 1100 sources that say the book was written "with the assistance of Alex Haley":
http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&q="autobiography+of+malcolm+x"+"assistance+of+alex+haley"
Any more questions. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 05:39, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Yes. How many of those 1100 google hits are reliable sources?Mk5384 (talk) 05:43, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Like The Concise Focal Encyclopedia of Photography, cited above? LOL — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 05:45, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Jet Jan 27, 1997 [17] says, "He inked the bestseller Queen, co-authored The Autobiography of Malcolm X. Alex Haley: The Man Who Traced America's Roots [18] states: "It was Haley who co-authored the controversial bestseller The Autobiography of Malcolm X" Black World/Negro Digest Jan 1976 [19] says, "Alex Haley, co-author of The Autobiography..." Spike Lee: interviews By Spike Lee, Cynthia Fuchs refer to Haley as the co-author [20]--GabeMc (talk) 05:49, 26 June 2010 (UTC) Is The Oxford companion to twentieth-century literature in English a RS Malik?[21]GabeMc (talk) 05:52, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I know how to search Google Books too. So now The Concise Focal Encyclopedia of Photography and Spike Lee are more reliable than academic papers. Hmm. Maybe you should read WP:V and WP:RS again. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 05:54, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
No worries Malik. I'm sure the same meat puppets who reverted the Alex Haley article ad infinitum for you will show up here soon, too.Mk5384 (talk) 05:55, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

The New York Times [22] is a reliable source, and so is The Oxford companion to twentieth-century literature in English [23], and both credit Haley as the co-author.GabeMc (talk) 06:02, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Another reliable source that credits Haley as the co-author [24] GabeMc (talk) 06:05, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Malik, how many authors does WorldCat list?GabeMc (talk) 06:06, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Gabe, how does WorldCat attribute authorship of the book? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 06:08, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
As I purchased the copy that I own back when I was in high school, I browsed through a Borders book store this morning, thinking that there may have been some sort of recent change in the attribution of authorship. They had 4 copies of the book, each of which said: The Autobiography of Malcolm X, As told to Alex Haley (my emphasis).Mk5384 (talk) 16:06, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
  • The New York Times [25]
  • The Oxford companion to twentieth-century literature in English [26]
  • The oral history reader By Robert Perks, Alistair Thomson [27]
  • Civil Rights Movement: People and Perspective… by Michael Ezra, page 173: "written by Alex Haley" [http://www.amazon.com/Civil-Rights-Movement-Perspectives-American/dp/1598840371/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277586459&sr=1-1#reader_1598840371]
  • Voices of Freedom: An Oral History of the Civil Rights Movement by Henry Hampton, Steve Fayer page 668 lists Haley as the author [http://www.amazon.com/Voices-Freedom-History-Movement-Through/dp/0553352326/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277587900&sr=1-10#reader_0553352326]
  • DATABASE: Library of Congress Online Catalog considers him an author on the book and the entry seems to make it clear that the phrase "with assistance from" is an object in the original title, not an official publishers credit per se. [28]
  • Ballantine Publishing Group, the original 1964 publisher says "Copyright 1964 by Alex Haley and Malcolm X", it's on the first page of the book. [http://www.amazon.com/Autobiography-Malcolm-X-Alex-Haley/dp/0891902163/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277588726&sr=8-1#reader_0891902163]

GabeMc (talk) 22:09, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

On crediting Haley as a co-author of the Autobiography of Malcolm X

Latest comment: 14 years ago38 comments3 people in discussion

Support, I say the book should be credited as a co-authored work, specifically "The Autobiography of Malcolm X is a 1965 book by human rights activist Malcolm X co-authored by Alex Haley.". GabeMc (talk) 05:58, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

The truth is, he's the author, and that's what this article correctly said for 6 years before Malik Shabazz decided for the entire community that Malcolm X wrote the book.Mk5384 (talk) 06:02, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Oppose because there are abundant reliable sources that show the book attributed to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley", and none that attribute the book to "Malcolm X co-authored by Alex Haley". — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 06:06, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

None? It seems quite a few have been listed for you above.Mk5384 (talk) 06:13, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Can you point out the one that says specifically that the book was written "by Malcolm X co-authored by Alex Haley", as GabeMc would like the article to say. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 06:18, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Well, it seems that he has already pointed out a few of them. You know my position. The truth is, Malcolm X didn't write one word of this book, which you very well know.Mk5384 (talk) 06:20, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
He hasn't pointed out any. He's pointed out articles that describe Haley as co-author, but that's not the same thing.
And it doesn't matter what I know or don't know. It matters what reliable sources say. (Read WP:V.) On Thursday I asked you to show me a Wikipedia article about an autobiography that credited the ghostwriter as the author instead of the putative author. I'm still waiting. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 06:25, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Why would an admin, of all people, request one Wikipedia article as a source for another. That's not permitted. And, per WP:RS, "mainstream news sources are generally considered to be reliable". "That's not the same thing" is an WP:IDONTLIKEIT argument, and utter nonsense.Mk5384 (talk) 07:23, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Support, as a compromise, whilst noting that the truth of the matter is that Alex Haley is the sole author.Mk5384 (talk) 06:21, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

It seems the original source for "assisted by" was the books original title, not it's original author attribution/copywrite. The book was originally copywrited to Alex Haley and Malcolm X [http://www.amazon.com/Autobiography-Malcolm-X-Alex-Haley/dp/0891902163/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277588726&sr=8-1#reader_0891902163]. The title was later changed to "as told to", a more accurate phrase considering Malcolm did not physically write a single word, phrase, sentence, or paragraph let alone the entire book without a co-author.--GabeMc (talk) 22:38, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

You're confusing what it says on the cover with its attribution. Until the mid- to late-1970s, the cover didn't mention Alex Haley at all. Then it started mentioning him, because Roots made him famous. First the cover said, per the attribution, "with the assistance of Alex Haley". Later the cover was changed to "as told to Alex Haley". I'll bet you've never seen a copy whose cover—or any page in the book, for that matter—says "co-authored by Alex Haley".
You still haven't explained why the 1110 Google Book hits that attribute the book's authorship to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley" are wrong. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 22:50, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Look at The Library of Congress [29], you will see that the original copywrited title said "with the assistance of" the first page of the book says "Copywrite 1964 by Alex Haley and Malcolm X, then Copywrite 1965 by Alex Haley and Betty Shabazz" [http://www.amazon.com/Autobiography-Malcolm-X-Alex-Haley/dp/0891902163/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277588726&sr=8-1#reader_0891902163].
So does that mean Betty Shabazz co-wrote the book as well? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:01, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
To be clear Malik, are you arguing that Haley was a writer with a primary copywrite credit but not a co-author?GabeMc (talk) 23:08, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
What is a "primary copywrite [sic] credit"? His name may have come first because of alphabetical order. The royalties were split evenly between Haley and Betty Shabazz.
In any event, this is a sideshow because you still haven't shown a single source that attributes the book to "Malcolm X, co-authored by Alex Haley". Find a single WP:RS that makes reference to the Autobiography and uses that phrase as its attribution (as opposed to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley"). — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:15, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
To be clear Malik, are you saying that while Malcolm X himself did not physically write a single word, phrase, sentence, or paragraph with his own hand he did author the entire book without a co-author? GabeMc (talk) 23:14, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm saying that reliable sources attribute the book to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley". — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:17, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

"Find a single WP:RS that makes reference to the Autobiography and uses that phrase as its attribution"-User:Malik Shabazz

  • The New York Times [30]
  • The Oxford companion to twentieth-century literature in English [31]
  • The oral history reader By Robert Perks, Alistair Thomson [32]
  • Civil Rights Movement: People and Perspective… by Michael Ezra, page 173: "written by Alex Haley" [http://www.amazon.com/Civil-Rights-Movement-Perspectives-American/dp/1598840371/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277586459&sr=1-1#reader_1598840371]
  • Voices of Freedom: An Oral History of the Civil Rights Movement by Henry Hampton, Steve Fayer page 668 lists Haley as the author [http://www.amazon.com/Voices-Freedom-History-Movement-Through/dp/0553352326/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277587900&sr=1-10#reader_0553352326]
  • DATABASE: Library of Congress Online Catalog considers him an author on the book and the entry seems to make it clear that the phrase "with assistance from" is an object in the original title, not an official publishers credit per se. [33]

GabeMc (talk) 23:21, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Where is the phrase that the book is by "Malcolm X, co-authored by Alex Haley"? Nowhere. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:23, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
By contrast, nearly all 1,110 of these books cite the autobiography's authorship as "Malcolm X, with the assistance of Alex Haley":
http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&q="autobiography+of+malcolm+x"+"assistance+of+alex+haley"
— Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
  • Jet Jan 27, 1997 [34] says, "He inked the bestseller Queen, co-authored The Autobiography of Malcolm X.
  • Alex Haley: The Man Who Traced America's Roots [35] states: "It was Haley who co-authored the controversial bestseller The Autobiography of Malcolm X" Black
  • World/Negro Digest Jan 1976 [36] says, "Alex Haley, co-author of The Autobiography..."GabeMc (talk) 23:26, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Still don't see the magic phrase you want to put in the article. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
"By contrast, nearly all 1,110 of these books cite the autobiography's authorship as "Malcolm X, with the assistance of Alex Haley."

Those hits are coming up because that is the original title of the book, as evidenced at The library of Congress.GabeMc (talk) 23:58, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

This is from The Library of Congress: "Main Title: The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley." That is the official original title of the book. So yeah, if I Google the title of a book I will get 1,200 hits. GabeMc (talk) 00:01, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

"Still don't see the magic phrase you want to put in the article."

Look here [37]GabeMc (talk) 00:05, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

On page 444 [38] of The Heath Anthology of American Literature it says this: "...the Autobiography of Malcolm X (1965), co- authored by Alex Haley".GabeMc (talk) 00:20, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

[39] "his autobiography, co-authored by Alex Haley." GabeMc (talk) 00:22, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

[40] "The Autobiography of Malcolm X. The book, which was co-authored by Alex Haley"--GabeMc (talk) 00:25, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

[41] From the Cleveland Institute of Art: "along with books such as The Autobiography of Malcolm X , co-authored by Alex Haley" GabeMc (talk) 00:29, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

[42] Look on the first page"...Malcolm X wrote in his 1964 autobiography, co-authored by Alex Haley."GabeMc (talk) 00:36, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

You still haven't produced a single source that rivals this, which cites the book as having been written by "Malcolm X, with the assistance of Alex Haley". Or this. Or this. Nice try, though. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 00:48, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
All three of your examples were texts citing the title of the book, none of them are using that phrase in a sentence as mine are. That phrase is verbatim from the title, and is not someone referring to the book that way.
Hello? They are bibliographic citations, showing author and title. Authorship is attributed to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley".
Look, I admire your persistence, but you're scraping the bottom of the barrel. Look at the discussion at WP:RSN. This is a closed issue. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 01:13, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

[43]"the book, which was co-authored by Alex Haley" [44]"...the autobiography co-authored by Alex Haley" [45]"...The Autobiography of Malcolm X, co-authored by Alex Haley" [46] "The Autobiography of Malcolm X (co-authored by Alex Haley[47]GabeMc (talk) 01:05, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

[48] "from The Autobiography of Malcolm X, co-authored by Alex Haley" GabeMc (talk) 01:08, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

[49] "The Autobiography of Malcolm X, co-authored by Alex Haley" GabeMc (talk) 01:13, 27 June 2010 (UTC) [50] "The Autobiography of Malcolm X, co-authored by Alex Haley" GabeMc (talk) 01:14, 27 June 2010 (UTC) [51]--GabeMc (talk) 01:39, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Here are ten MORE sources that refer to Haley as the co-author of The Autobiography of Malcolm X--GabeMc (talk) 03:39, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I can't even fathom the level of arrogance required for Malik Shabazz to declare, "This is a closed issue".Mk5384 (talk) 08:05, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
It's my understanding that there is no such thing as a "closed issue", Wiki editors ALWAYS have the ability to open issues as they come, and no one admin can decide the final word on an article. --GabeMc (talk) 00:20, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
Your understanding is correct. He's just trying to push us around.Mk5384 (talk) 10:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Scholarly Sources

Latest comment: 14 years ago18 comments3 people in discussion

Here are five scholarly sources who use the phrase "co-authored by Alex Haley":

Here are five scholarly sources who refer to Haley as a co-author of The Autobiography of Malcolm X.

GabeMc (talk) 01:44, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I also find it extremely troubling that Malik summarily ignores myriad specific examples of WP:RS, in favor of the 1100 google hits he got by typing in a series of words. It is deliberately duplicitous.Mk5384 (talk) 08:17, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
What you don't seem to understand is (a) Gabe has been doing nothing more than "typing a series of words" into Google and (b) this is a closed issue. If you don't believe me, ask again at WP:RSN. There is no controversy or question concerning how authorship is attributed in scholarly literature, except in your mind and that of your buddy Gabe. Now drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 17:41, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
I was just at WP:RSN, and don't see anything that says it's a "closed issue". Please stop attempting to bully other users into accepting your word as law. The big, bad admin is the only one wielding a stick here.Mk5384 (talk) 19:06, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Malik, I am curious, why are your three sources better then my 20? And one more time I will explain why I think you seem so confused, "with the assistance of Alex Haley" is a phrase FROM THE TITLE OF THE BOOK so your sources are good if you want to confirm the title, nothing more. This is beginning to feel like a WP:OWNERSHIP issue. "All Wikipedia content is edited collaboratively. Wikipedia contributors are editors, not authors, and no one, no matter how skilled, has the right to act as if they are the owner of a particular article." --GabeMc (talk) 00:30, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

It's not three sources, it's 1,110. And no, it's not a quote from the title of the book (and there's no need to shout). It's the way the authorship is attributed in bibliographies and footnotes. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 00:40, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm curious why is "this is a closed issue" as you stated, and how is the mocking statement "drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass" befitting an admin?--GabeMc (talk) 01:20, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
It's a closed issue because of the discussion at WP:RSN. One editor said "That pretty much settles it, in my opinion." Another wrote "I gotta agree with him". They were both referring to bibliographic citation of the authorship as "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley". — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 01:27, 28 June 2010 (UTC)


Here are four citations that do not attribute authorship to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley".


"The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley." is not the only title of the book used since 1964, there are more than one version with more than one title, it is an accepted official title. See the TEN WP:RS below that include the phrase "with the assistance of Alex Haley" as PART OF THE TITLE.

  • The Library of Congress [76] says the title is: "The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley."
  • The British Library Integrated Catalog [77] says the title is: "The Autobiography of Malcolm X : with the assistance of Alex Haley."
  • The National Library of Australia [78] says the title is: "The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley."
  • The National Library of Scotland [79] says the title is: "The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; with an introduction by Paul Gilroy." It also list Haley as an author.
  • The Harvard Libraries [80] says the title is: "The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley." Harvard also says Alex Haley is the author.
  • Stanford University [81] list the book as: "The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; foreword by Attallah Shabazz ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley ; afterword by Ossie Davis." Stanford also gives Haley an author credit.
  • Yale University [82] says the title is: "The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; foreword by Attallah Shabazz ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley ; afterword by Ossie Davis."
  • MIT [83] has the title as: "The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; foreword by Attallah Shabazz ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley ; afterword by Ossie Davis." MIT also goves Haley an author credit.
  • Oxford University autobiography of malcolm x%22&mode=Basic&scp.scps=scope%3A(%22OX%22) says the title is: "The Autobiography of Macolm X, with the assistance of Alex Haley ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley." Oxford also lists Haley as an author.
  • The University of Chicago [84] says the title is: "The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley ; afterword by Ossie Davis." The University of Chicago also lists Haley as an author. --GabeMc (talk) 03:13, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

UCLA, Cornell, Stanford, Harvard, MIT, Oxford University, and The University of Chicago all give Alex Haley an author credit on the Autobiography.

GabeMc (talk) 03:26, 28 June 2010 (UTC)


Yes, but you are leaving out EVERYTHING I have written, and EVERYTHING Mk5384 has said, not to mention one editor said:

and


Also, your editor who said :"I gotta agree with him"--Yoenit (talk) 23:24, 23 June 2010 (UTC), also said:

So it seems like two editors agree with you, while two agree with me, I have shown 27 WP:RS that agree with me, you have shown three pictures of a bibliography that state the title of the book.

How is this "a closed issue"? Explain how this is settled BY CONSENSUS. --GabeMc (talk) 03:46, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Malik, explain again how "with the assistance of Alex Haley" is NOT A PHRASE from the title of the Autobiography". --GabeMc (talk) 03:50, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't respond to people who feel the need to shout. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:52, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I don't see it as shouting, I see it as capitalized words in boldface, but fine, I agree to not shout at you. --GabeMc (talk) 04:01, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

So, do you disagree with UCLA, Cornell, Stanford, Harvard, MIT, Oxford University, and The University of Chicago, or are these sources not as good as your sources? --GabeMc (talk) 04:03, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

"With the assistance of Alex Haley" is no more part of the title than the phrase "introduction by M.S. Handler".
I asked you earlier, and my challenge still stands: Show me bibliographic references to the Autobiography that attribute the authorship to "Malcolm X, co-authored by Alex Haley" (which is the phrase you want to use in the article). I've shown you three specific examples, and a link to more than a thousand more.
In case you don't understand, I'm talking about the way the authorship of the Autobiography is cited in scholarly papers and in books. (Note: You can tell the difference between the title and the author by italics and commas.) Not what newspapers say, not sentences that Haley co-wrote the book, and not what libraries' card catalogs say.
I've shown you my sources. It's time for you to put up or shut up. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:11, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, Malik, but you don't get to say, "not what newspapers say." Make that argument at WP:RS-not here.Mk5384 (talk) 10:18, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I cited four scholarly sources that refer to him as the co-author. --GabeMc (talk) 04:28, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Consensus version of lede

Latest comment: 14 years ago7 comments2 people in discussion

On June 30, Mk5384 proposed a compromise version of the lede. GabeMc said it would be "the sensible thing to do" and I agreed to it.

Shortly thereafter, Gabe made a similar proposal at my Talk page, which I accepted.

On July 3, I implemented the compromise the three of us had agreed to.

That version stood until July 26, when Gabe unilaterally decided to change it.

I am changing the lede back to the version we agreed upon—wherein we includes Gabe. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 19:37, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Note that in his June 30 message to me, Gabe specifically included the phrase "Haley [[Ghostwriter|wrote]] the book", a phrase he now vehemently rejects. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 19:42, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Malik, the ghostwriter bit was part of a compromise, my end was that Haley was to be credited as a collaborator, which you did not include, here you seem to be claiming that we made an agreement and I backed out, which of course, is the opposite of what happened. — GabeMc (talk) 21:27, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
  • "On June 30, Mk5384 proposed a compromise version of the lede."
You didn't implement Mk5384's full suggesion, which included: "It could then explain the differing opinions of authorship, and give examples." The first part added nothing substantive. And did not further the point he argued for over a month, as the second part would have done.
  • "GabeMc said it would be "the sensible thing to do".
Malik, you should finish the sentence, that's not what I said, this is: "That would seem to be a sensible thing to do, however, the RFC tag lasts 30 days, I suggest we let it run it's course in order to gain the best consensus we can."
  • "Gabe made a similar proposal at my Talk page, which I accepted."
It was a suggestion, not written in stone, and you failed once again to add the substance of what I had been arguing for a month. My suggestion included: "is a 1965 book, the result of a collaboration". The substance of my suggestion, like Mk5384's, was ignored by you.
Malik, you are edit warring, and I think most sensible editors will be able to tell that by the above discussion. You are taking things out of context, misquoting statments, reverting without regard to sources and consensus, etc.
Not one single editor has supported your view since the RfC tag went up 32 days ago. How do you have consensus? Here are two editors who have agreed with me, [91], [92]. Who has supported your view, and what sources have you provided since June 28th?
I never came to a consensus with you Mailk, and wishing cannot make it so, but even if I had, I can change my mind 30 days later based on 150+ sources, right? You are not actually claiming that my suggestion on your talk page, which you in substance ignored anyway, was my final and binding opinion that can never be changed, right? — GabeMc (talk) 20:08, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
9 out of the last 42 edits to this page are you reverting, [93], how do you have consensus if every fourth edit is you reverting someone else?
Here is what your best supporter, banned user Mk5384, was saying in late June, early July:
On June 28, three minutes after the RfC tag went up, you said, "Every bibliographic citation I have seen cites the authorship of the Autobiography as "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley". Two other editors disagree. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:39, 28 June 2010 (UTC)"
Your very first comment post RfC tag admits that, "Two other editors disagree." Since that time, two more editors disagreed, here, [103], and here, [104], and I provided 182 WP:RSs that supported co-authorship, here, [105]. So please explain to me where consensus shifted to your preferred version. — GabeMc (talk) 22:41, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

As far as having reached consensus, not one single editor has supported your view since the RfC tag went up 33 days ago. And here is an excert from the biography of Ilyasah Shabazz, Malcolm X' daughter; "The Autobiography of Malcolm X", written by my father with Alex Haley." — GabeMc (talk) 23:23, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Ghostwriter

Latest comment: 14 years ago9 comments2 people in discussion
  • Ghostwriters typically do not get credit, let alone copyrights to a book, whereas Haley gets both.
  • How many ghostwriter's names are as synoymous with the work as Haley is with the Autobiography? To the point that when a Harvard professor assigns the Autobiography for class reading, they include Haley's name on the syllabus.
  • How many ghostwritten books could you find over 100 reliable sources referring to the ghostwriter as a co-author?

If this were a ghostwritten autobiography, would Haley's name be such an integral part of the brand, or even mentioned, let alone regularly credited as co-author? — GabeMc (talk) 20:22, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

That's an absurd and untrue assertion. See Where's the Rest of Me? by Ronald Reagan with Richard G. Hubler, for example. Or your current favorite, Growing Up X by Ilyasah Shabazz with Kim McLarin. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 22:26, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Can you provide any sources that call Richard G. Hubler a ghostwriter on the Reagan book? How about for Kim McLarin on the Shabazz book? Your links only prove that there are two writers on the biographies, so what are they supposed to be proving about ghostwriters? — GabeMc (talk) 23:10, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Do you know what a ghostwriter is? Have you read the Wikipedia article, particularly the section titled "Remuneration and credit"? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:13, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Protonk said, "Haley easily clears what I would consider authorship for the book, despite the title. This is evidenced by widespread attribution as well as his participation not meeting normal characteristics of ghostwriting." - Protonk (talk) 21:49, 1 August 2010 (UTC) — GabeMc (talk) 02:27, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
From Ghostwriter:
  • "A ghostwriter is a professional writer who is paid to write books, articles, stories, reports, or other texts that are officially credited to another person." (first line)
Anyway, Wiki is not a reliable source, is it? So what is the point of citing it? — GabeMc (talk) 23:24, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm not "citing" it, I'm referring you to it because it's clear you have no idea what a ghostwriter is. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:27, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
BTW, Gates has a history of omitting Haley, look here. — GabeMc (talk) 00:04, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Look here, and here. It not as simple as you would like. — GabeMc (talk) 00:07, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Stopping the edit war about the lead: administrative restriction

Latest comment: 14 years ago19 comments5 people in discussion

I'm coming here as an uninvolved admin after reading the WP:AN3 thread about the ongoing edit war.

After looking at the history of the article and the content discussion above, I find that there has indeed been edit warring by both GabeMc and Malik Shabazz since at least June. But blocking one or both editors would not be helpful at this time, since a sort of content mediation by Protonk, above, seems to be progressing. On the other hand, unilateral edits by either editor are now definitely unhelpful to the purpose of finding a consensus solution for the content dispute that satisfies both editors. And protecting the page in one of the two "wrong" versions would remove the incentive for at least one of the users to help find a solution.

So here's what I'm doing: I'm removing, as a temporary administrative measure, all information about the (contested) authorship issue from the current lead and from the infobox, since there is clearly no consensus yet, and in light of what Protonk writes above, either version may well be as inaccurate as no information at all.

Now, should either GabeMc or Malik Shabazz make any edit pertaining to the authorship issue without the express agreement of the other editor, I will consider that a continuation of the current edit war and block the respective editor. This restriction lasts until both editors have expressly agreed to a common resolution of the authorship dispute. All other editors are of course free to edit as normal (but I strongly advise all not to make any edits pertaining to the authorship issue until there is an agreed consensus version).  Sandstein  10:19, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I should point out, the body of the article still contains a Wikilink to Ghostwriter and should be removed as well, IMHO. — GabeMc (talk) 20:58, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
In the interest of comity can we leave it in until we have agreed on some solution for the body text? Protonk (talk) 23:06, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Extended content
(ec) Yes, at the beginning of the "Writing" section: "Haley [[Ghostwriter|wrote]] ''The Autobiography'' ...". This is a dilemma, because the presence of the "Ghostwriter" wikilink implies a particular position on the authorship issue, but removing the wikilink, leaving only the text "wrote", would imply another position. So there's no way that I can temporarily "neutralize" this passage without deleting the whole section, which would be disruptive. Also, the edit war did not really focus on that passage, and the juxtaposition of the text (implying one position) and the wikilink (implying another) may even come close to the "neutral" temporary solution I attempted to implement for the lead (though it is an inartful solution that I would not recommend for any final version if only because it fails WP:EGG). For these reasons, I feel that the least problematic thing for me to do as an admin who does not want to take sides in the content dispute is to leave this passage be as it is. Other editors (all but GabeMc and Malik Shabazz) may of course do with it what they please, but again, I think that Protonk's suggestion to leave it be until the content dispute is resolved is sensible.  Sandstein  23:20, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm not trying to be difficult here, but leaving the link in underminds the solution which, if I understand correctly, was to remove both sides of the arguement, one side, Malik's side, was that Haley was a Ghostwriter on the Autobiography, my side was that he was a "co-author or collaborator" on the Autobiography, at this point, none of my side is in the article, it's all been deleted. With all due respect Protonk, comity would be to remove it, not to let it remain. Malik has offered me absolutely zero in terms of compromise. He still has not budged one inch. The ghostwriter bit is 100% Malik, he is the only editor who has argued for it on this discussion page in well over a month.
  • Suggestion - The beginning of the "Writing" section should read as follows: "The book is the result of a collaboration with journalist Alex Haley, who wrote the Autobiography based on more than 50 in-depth interviews he conducted with Malcolm X between 1963 and the activist's February 1965 assassination."
  • Comment - According to Prontonk's summary above, "Haley is nominally a ghostwriter", "Haley is both ghostwriter and co-author", and, "Haley's role as collaborator and partner is unmistakable". — GabeMc (talk) 00:01, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Well, with respect, I feel it should remain until both sides can come to an agreement or at least until Malik checks in here saying it can be removed for the time being. I will say that my suggested body text will undoubtedly include a wikilink to the article ghostwriter. As for Malik's cooperation, I think that isn't an argument to add or remove content from the article. If he has not cooperated and you've been flexible, good. If he has cooperated, good. But neither state gives me a reason to promote one view on the article over another, especially when this would only be temporary. Ideally Malik should check in w/ comments above, I'll write a draft for the body section (or you guys can write a draft based on my comments or your own read of the sources I presented) and this will be wrapped up neatly. If we can't reach a compromise then the next step is mediation, assuming you are both willing to accept the decision of a mediator. Protonk (talk) 00:32, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
  • That sentence has been in the article since I rewrote it two months ago, and Gabe has never said a word about it. I don't see any reason to change it now.
  • As far as Gabe's assertion that I have not compromised one bit, it is just another one of his falsehoods. My preferred version of the lede read "The Autobiography of Malcolm X is a 1965 book by human rights activist Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley." I would be happy to restore that lede, but I've agreed to compromise, and I'm working on a new suggestion. As evidenced by Gabe's comments, it is he who has been inflexible and unwilling to compromise. (Compare today's suggestion with his July 31 suggestion.) — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Please, please, please, stop accusing me of lying, your insults are childish and not in good faith at all. Malik, you should read more carefully, I did indeed compromise, on July 31, I included "co-authored", which yesterday I changed to "collaboration", in the spirit of compromise. At any rate, I am so fatiged from 40 days and countless hours of researching, then being reverted and bossed around by you Malik, I have already put "way too much" time and energy into this, for Wiki's sake, and I have learned my lesson about expending effort to improve Wiki. My passion for this is tapped out, and I have had enough of Malik's accusations and red herrings. Malik, you are disengenuous, uncivil, and a bully. You refuse to answer the numerous good faith questions I ask, and have done nothing but refute everything I have said, dispite several editos, Protonk included, who agreed that Haley was an author and collaborator on the book.
  • P.S., it is very satisfing that Protonk's suggestion is nearly word-for-word what Mk5384, the editor you had blocked for warring, suggested on June 30th, you of course, ignored his suggestion to include a section about the differing opinions about authorship, as you ignored my arguement for co-authorship/collaboration. — GabeMc (talk) 20:05, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
  • If you don't like being accused of lying, try telling the truth for a change. As far as good faith, what a laugh. You came here to "have the back" of an editor who was blocked (not by me) for violating 3RR here and at Alex Haley. (Yes, I know, he and I both misunderstood your message. Poor, poor misunderstood Gabe.   ) If anybody is a bully here, Gabe, it is you. How many witless questions do you think you can demand I answer? Why have you never answered a single one of my questions without changing the subject, or by acting like a Google monkey? So, Gabe, what does it say on the title page of the Autobiography? You never did report back about your trip to the bookstore. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:37, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
  • The title page of the Autobiography says, "The Autobiography of Malcolm X" "with the assistance of Alex Haley ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley." Where does it say Malcolm X was the author and Alex Haley was the ghostwriter? NOWHERE. As far as calling me a Google Monkey, another unprovoked childish insult, and more uncilility from an admin, who started the generic Google hits arguement? It wasn't me, it was you, whose only support was Google hits. I actualy found specific sources, and yes, I found them using Google, but at least I read the pages to find out what the texts were actually saying.
  • Question - Which part of the title page is the title, and which part is the author attribution? It looks to me like it states the title, and then lists the authors, a list in which the name Malcolm X does not appear. — GabeMc (talk) 22:37, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Nobody is made better off by scoring points in a debate. I'm going to start patrolling the talk page for this kind of sniping if the tone of discussion doesn't dramatically improve. Protonk (talk) 22:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Hi guys, Protonk asked me to peek in ... this is a lot to digest. I've got a few questions.
  • I note above "Marable is likely the most respected scholar who has also researched the subject in great detail, and having seen original parts of the manuscript, he has a uniquely informed perspective of the book's writing process." Did Marable see all the notes? Is he the only one who did? Anyone who saw the notes could compare them with the finished product and tell us how much of the wording was Malcolm X's.
Marable is the only source I know of that writes about seeing the manuscript materials. — GabeMc (talk) 19:36, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Presumably, if the language in the book didn't sound like Malcolm X, the book would have come across as "fake", and since it was published immediately after Malcolm X's death, there were plenty of people around who could say whether it sounded like Malcolm X or not. The only way to sound like a person is to use phrases that are largely theirs; in that sense, Malcolm X could be said to be a co-author, conscious or not, willing or not.
I have never disagreed that Malcolm was a co-author, I believe he was, according to the preponderance of sources the book was co-authored. Whether or not it sounds like Malcolm is a matter of opinion, several scholars suggest Haley did a great job of subsuming his voice in the narrative, per Wood, Wideman, Rampersad, Stone and Marable.
Malcolm X did not author any books whatsoever. The Autobiography is the closest he ever came to writing anything. — GabeMc (talk) 19:36, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
That isn't completely true. Malcolm X wrote and delivered hundreds, perhaps thousands, of speeches, dozens of which have been published. If the "voice" of the autobiography hadn't been true to Malcolm X's, it would have been noted by now. Whether or not it sounds like Malcolm is a matter of opinion I don't think anybody has expressed the opinion that the autobiography doesn't sound like Malcolm X. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 22:47, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
You are correct Malik, Malcolm wrote his speeches, but as far as I know, "Malcolm X did not author any books", aside from the Autobiography, with Alex Haley. Futher, Malcolm's published speeches were transcribed, then edited from recordings and transcripts, by other authors, Marable hints that some of those transcriptions were not always 100% accurate to what Malcolm has said.
  • "I don't think anybody has expressed the opinion that the autobiography doesn't sound like Malcolm X".
I agree 100%, the preponderance of sources suggest that Haley's voice is barely perceptible, and that the "voice" of the Autobiography is very much true to Malcolm. I merely meant that determining, "Whether or not it sounds like Malcolm", would involve using an opinion, and as such it is not relevant to the Wiki article if said opinion comes from a Wiki editor versus a noted scholar. — GabeMc (talk) 00:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
On the Malcolm X 'voice' issue, I think there are a few sources which assert opinions (fewer that offer evidence) as to whether or not the autobiography is in malcolm's voice. I'd say (from reading them and the autobiography) that it generally is in his voice. Malcolm demanded and (to the best of our knowledge and as is mentioned in gabe's draft) asserted strong stylistic control over the manuscript. Broad narrative was massaged by Haley as was the tone of the piece, but syntax and diction were similar to Malcolm's voice. All that said I'm very receptive to Wideman's argument that Malcolm's voice is not as strong as it could be in order to allow the reader to insert themselves into the broader sociological/psychological narrative. But at this stage in the game we do have sources on this and it isn't just he said-she said. Protonk (talk) 01:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
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