Talk:The Bridge School, Ipswich

Requested move 11 November 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus against move. (closed by non-admin page mover) feminist (talk) 18:08, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

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The Bridge School, Ipswich → The Bridge School – Does this need disambiguation? it looks like the school in California, though it does seem to be refereed to with "the", that doesn't look to be part of the name, a hatnote already exists, though since there is also Bridge School (Michigan), which indicated it also is refereed to like that, there should probably just be a hatnote to the DAB. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:31, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. Of course it needs disambiguation. The definite article isn't enough, given other schools on the list could also be referred to as the Bridge School (used in both their articles). The fact it's not officially part of the name is neither here nor there. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:00, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. My first and top search for this school came up with an identically named "The Bridge School" in California. http://www.bridgeschool.org/ Due to WP:THE, and leading "The" is never a sufficient disambiguator. I am getting the impression, User:Crouch, Swale, that you are initiating a lot of ill-consider RM requests and creating busywork for others to respond to you. Please stop trying to fix titles that don't need fixing. Removing the "Ipswich" reduces recognisability, does not increase concision, and necessitates hatnotes that consume more article real estate than title character reduction frees (which is none). --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:21, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

  @SmokeyJoe: We don't make titles more recognizable by adding qualifiers, we have been through this on countless occasions, see User:Born2cycle/Unnecessary disambiguation and the arguments at Talk:Horncastle and User talk:Andrewa/P T examples and scenarios#Bacolod-Kalawi, Lanao del Sur → Bacolod-Kalawi. The only thing we need to ask here is is disambiguation needed per WP:SMALLDETAILS? Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:25, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

• We? I am not very familiar with what you have been doing with qualifiers. Qualifiers are used for limiting the scope of something. Ipswich is not a qualifier. Happy to explain this further if you like.

I have very little respect for User:Born2cycle/Unnecessary disambiguation. "Unnecessary" / "necessary" is an absurdly extreme term. Many good things are unnecessary.

Information, concise information, very often adds significantly to recognisability. How much, that has to be considered on a case by case basis. For a school with a generic name, the location of the school is very important, and belongs in the title.

A leading "The" is too small a SMALLDETAIL. Are you disputing this? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:42, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

"Ipswich" is a qualifier, its not part of the name, its just where the school is. How much detail is needed anyway in you're opinion? As has been pointed out there is no obviois limit to detail. We could have The Bridge School, Ipswich, Suffolk, England, The Bridge School (special school), Heath Road, Ipswich, Suffolk, England etc. For the same reason as at Talk:Welland, someone familiar with this school will recognize what "The Bridge School" is and applying more detail is local consensus and will lead to more squabbles over how much detail is needed.

The others use "The Bridge School" in the intro, suggesting that "The" isn't part of the name, with this having "The Bridge School". Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:49, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

You’re repeating B2C’s slippery slope fallacy at me? Did you read WP:THE, and think about what readers make of it? —SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:16, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

You're introducing a slippery slope fallacy of adding information to titles to increase recognizably. It looks like the others in running text would be "X goes to the Bridge School" while this one would be "X goes to The Bridge School" in accordance with WP:THE. Obviously if readers and sources use both to refer to both, then the SMALLDETAILS would fail, which is the main question here. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:53, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

A leading “The” is always too small a SMALLDETAIL. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:31, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose – Even if one wanted to rely on a leading "The" to distinguish ambiguous titles, it does not distinguish in this case. I'd just drop the the, personally. Dicklyon (talk) 23:42, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

  And a quick survey of linked references finds that most do not even include "The". So drop it. Dicklyon (talk) 23:45, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

• That’s what I’m seeing too, even in the articles sources. In running text, they don’t capitalise “The”. Move to Bridge School, Ipswich. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:29, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose all of the schools seem to have the same name, it's purely an accident that this is the only one where the "The" has made it to the article title. Fine with a move to Bridge School, Ipswich. power~enwiki (π, ν) 05:34, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
• OK, I'd note that the California school does also seen to use "The" however Google Maps uses "The Bridge School" can I suggest relisting with the suggestion of moving to Bridge School, Ipswich. Crouch, Swale (talk) 13:30, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Anyone with a gmail account can change labels on google maps. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:00, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 22 November 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved. See general agreement below to drop the definite article per the guideline. Kudos to editors for your input, and Happy Publishing! (nac by page mover) Paine Ellsworth, ed.  ^put'r there  10:57, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

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The Bridge School, Ipswich → Bridge School, Ipswich – Per previous RM discussion, "The" is omitted in many sources including the school's own, not treated as a necessary or integral part of the name, so per WP:THE we drop it. Dicklyon (talk) 15:43, 22 November 2018 (UTC) --Relisted. Paine Ellsworth, ed.  ^put'r there  17:19, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Oppose, The Bridge School is the school's official name per the UK Government, Ofsted, local authority and the school's domain and website (www.thebridgeschool.org.uk). Sources also use The Bridge School, some simply Bridge School. In this case, the best way forward and in line with other school articles, "Bridge School, Ipswich" could be setup as a new redirect to this article if needed but the first line of the intro text could be updated to something like this: "The Bridge School (simply referred to as Bridge School) is an all-through foundation special school..." Steven (Editor) (talk) 21:59, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Support. Even the school lowercases “the” when referring to itself. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:13, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:35, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• Its difficult to tell but looking at sources like its website and news reports appear to treat "The" as part of the name, but its not clear since it appears when the "T" would need capitalizing anyway, I'd say weak oppose, but am not sure. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:02, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
• Comment by nom – Here are some of the cited sources indicating "The" being optional:
  • Facebook page refers to "Bridge School Parents meeting" (odd caps, but no "The").
  • Letter to "a Bridge School parent"; referring also to "the Bridge" (lowercase The, no School).
  • News article with "the Bridge school" and "the Bridge School", not treating "the" as part of proper name.
  • News article with "to force Bridge School".

  And the other 2 refs are giving me 404 errors. In general, the refs do not support the claim that "The" is a necessary and inherent part of the proper name. It's optional, so we drop it. Dicklyon (talk) 21:24, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

  • • Facebook, the about "This page will provide updates from The Bridge School Action Group which opposes the move to impose The Bridge Special School become a Multi Academy Trust"
    • Letter, although it does use just "Bridge School" it does use a capital "T" on the 3rd paragraph "pupils at The Bridge School"
    • EADT, it uses a capital "T" where it would be required anyway, it does in the end passages use "the Bridge School" 3 times.
    • Ipswich Star, uses "Open day for The Bridge School in Ipswich" at the beginning, it then uses "Bridge School" twice but at the end states "and The Bridge School to assist".
  • I'm not certain either way but it seems to me that the sources more often than not treat "The" as part of the name and drop it sometimes for brevity. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:45, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

    It's not so much a question of "more often"; rather it's that they show the "The" to not be a necessary integral part of the name. See WP:THE Dicklyon (talk) 22:28, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

    The Bridge School is still the official name of the school, sometimes "the" is capitalised and sometimes it isn't. Sometimes people will say "Bridge School" when referring to the school because it's easier. I provided links to the Government website, Ofsted, the local authority which are all official sources and the school's website itself which all use "The Bridge School" (sometimes the school capitalises and sometimes it doesn't". The title of that Facebook page is "Don't Break The Bridge School". This news article for example has it capitalised twice and once lowercase. Steven (Editor) (talk) 18:33, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 22 October 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (non-admin closure) Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 19:30, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

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Bridge School, Ipswich → The Bridge School, Ipswich – This is the school's actual name - It does not fall under WP:THE as 'The Bridge' is an established independent term such as The Bridge to Better Learning etc Bleaney (talk) 09:11, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:40, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. The definite article is not consistently capitalised even on the school's own website. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:33, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
• Weak support while the definite article isn't always capitalized I think it is often enough to satisfy WP:THE. Note that Gov.uk uses the definite article for this but not "Royal Hospital School"[1]. Note that the Ordnance Survey doesn't have a data entry for it but does have for other schools but with[2] and without[3] the article, if it did have one for this that would have been helpful. @Bleaney and Necrothesp: taken to RM due to the previous RM and the contest above. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:46, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

  Ordnance Survey has "The Bridge School Secondary Campus" (http://data.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/id/4000000073333078) and "The Bridge School Primary Campus" (http://data.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/id/4000000073954310). Peter James (talk) 14:26, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

  OK, changing to full support per the OS. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:43, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

• Support Steven (Editor) (talk) 18:42, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
• Support 'The Bridge School' is capitalised enough in sources to meet requirements for WP:THE. Bleaney (talk) 11:36, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. The preceding RM was right and still is right. Nowhere near enough sources meet WP:THE. The one that do capitalise The are doing so as their house styling, and many sources demonstrate that the school itself does not capitalise The in running text. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:17, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

  That could well be partly due to the fact that articles are often put in lower case as a way of abbreviating them (like The Beatles is even written in lower case mid-sentence) or because that's how they are often written anyway just like preposition/conjunctions, Newcastle upon Tyne is written with a lower case "u" in "upon". Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:43, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.