Talk:The Foundling and Other Tales of Prydain

Chronology

Out of curiosity, I'm wondering if anyone knows the chronological order of the stories in The Foundling. At a guess I'd say it runs like this:

1. "The Smith, the Weaver, and the Harper" -- I think this must be the earliest story, for reasons laid out below.
2. "The Sword" -- The High King tells us that Dyrnwyn was forged for Rhydderch Hael, Rhitta's grandfather. I'd say it was probably made before Arawn stole the secrets of Prydain, but by the time Rhitta got his hands on it anything could've happened. I get the impression that anyone clever enough to create a sword that could slay Arawn would've been too wise to be deceived like Iscovan was, so Govannion the Lame almost certainly predates Iscovan. So, my theory: first, Govannion forges the sword for Rhydderch. Sometime after this Arawn steals the secrets of Prydain, perhaps during the rule of Rhydderch's son Rhych. Finally, Rhitta gains the blade.
3. "The Foundling" -- Enter Dallben. The sword the three witches offer him sounds like the pre-curse Dyrnwyn, but that seems unlikely. Although it's not impossible, there's no evidence that Dyrnwyn was lost and regained by Rhydderch or his sons before Rhitta got hold of it. I'm placing this story after "The Smith" and "The Sword."
4. "The Stone" -- This story almost seems to pick up where "The Foundling" left off, at least if the old man in the beginning is Dallben.
5. "The Rascal Crow" -- Crows don't generally live for more than a few years, but I expect Kadwyr and Kaw are exceptions. Medwyn's talk of the gwythaint's apparently recent enslavement leads me to believe this one comes before Coll's story. I doubt it predates Dallben, though.
6. "Coll and His White Pig" -- This story and "The True Enchanter" probably occur fairly close to each other, but since this is before Coll met Dallben I'm assuming it's the older of the two.
7. "The True Enchanter"
8. "The Truthful Harp" -- It seems appropriate that this be the most recent story. We know Fflewddur is older than Taran and Eilonwy, but I don't think it's an enormous gap. Taran and Eilonwy had almost certainly not been born yet in any of the other stories, but there's a good chance they're small children during the events of this one.

In the preface (1999 but evidently original) Alexander places all six 1973 stories "before the birth of Taran A P-K" —a note included now in the article.

These are just my theories. If anyone ever looks at this page I definitely welcome discussion!--Jiangyingzi 09:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Well done. Do any such observations belong somehow in the article? Maybe some part, the fruit of rudimentary rather than challenging research. On a related theme see #Fables and histories. --P64 (talk) 23:41, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Dates and titles

These discrepancies need attention to facts and perhaps some rewording:

• the first collection — 1970 (footer template) or 1973?
• the first collection — The Foundling (citation) or longer title?
• Truthful Harp picture book — 1967 (footer template, "Other Novels") or 1965?

later, from library catalog: 1967 32p ISBN 0-03086-618-9 oclc 297069

• Coll picture book — not in the footer template (1965 in one library catalog)

later, from library catalog: 1965 32p (no ISBN or other numbers)

• the second collection — The Foundling ... of Prydain (citation) or ... from Prydain (article title)

If The Foundling ... from Prydain is not the title of either edition, then it should not be the article title, obviously.

By inspection of the second collection, public library copy, and use of the library catalog, i am able to confirm the bold points, and I will revise to match. --P64 (talk) 17:07, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

--P64 (talk) 20:19, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

First and first expanded editions

At Open Library, 1999 is the first expanded edition.[1] Puffin 1996 has more pages but only six stories.[2] Is that the cited 1996 Penguin edition? Uncertainly I delete that citation and all {{Infobox book}} data known to represent any but the 1973 first or the 1999 first expanded edition. --P64 (talk) 17:38, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Major revision

Today I have completed major revision of everything except the long section "Stories", which I have not touched except to move the two picture books into the lead.

Beside "Stories", two leftovers are

to identify the picture books by ISBN (or equivalent, at least) and

to delete the stray Citation that was used only long ago for Infobox data.[3] --P64 (talk) 20:35, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

The new Stories summaries include a few short quotations.

Fables and histories

Today I have rewritten section Stories as eight summaries only, without any mention how they relate to The Chronicles. These dashed notes give some indications, including but not limited to points I have removed from the summaries.

Foundling —history of Dallben the enchanter, "Book of Three"

Stone —(Doli of the Fair Folk)

True Enchanter —(Angharad, later mother of Eilonwy), mention of the bauble

Rascal Crow —(Kadwyr, later father of Kaw)

Sword —history of Dyrnwyn, Spiral Castle

Smith Weaver Harper —why craftsmen must labor

Coll —history of Caer Dallben, Coll Pig-Keeper, status of Hen Wen

Truthful Harp —history of Fflewdur, harp

All eight stories are fables with lessons of a sort. Four(bold) are prequels to The Chronicles in a narrow sense: histories, maybe origins, of important objects, sites, or relationships. The other four are not.

Today I have no confident opinion which of these indications should be spelled out in the article, nor in what format. --P64 (talk) 23:18, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Level

Why do articles on children's and young adult books routinely say nothing about grade level, interest level, etc?

In the first expanded edition (1999), all eight stories run 8-10 pages, order of magnitude 2000 words. To me they are similar in level, all suitable for picture books to be read aloud. --P64 (talk) 00:13, 19 December 2011 (UTC)