Talk:The Garden of Earthly Delights/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Legacy section

I think a discussion of Pieter Brueghel the Elder, Surrealism, Joan Miró, Salvador Dali, Pavel Tchelitchew, dream imagery, Dante etc. can be added. Clearly the influence on 20th century art is an important legacy of the Bosch. Modernist (talk) 11:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Haven't found a good source yet, Modernist. Anything you could recommend? Ceoil (talk) 22:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm looking too. Painters of Fantasy: From Hieronymus Bosch to Salvador Dali by William Gaunt, Publisher:London : Phaidon, 1974. - and this link [1] look promising. Modernist (talk) 23:20, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Painters of Fantasy seems to be primarily a gathering of reproductions, I think. Kafka Liz (talk) 21:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm finding nothing on influence, even in 20c books dedicated to the work. So I'll leave the Bruegel here, for now. Maybe Bosch is similar to Bacon; too individual to be imitated. Ceoil (talk) 22:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I've found an article on Bosch and Miró, but that's it. I just spent nearly two hours in my library going through indices of books on the grotesque, (since some thoughtful soul has removed ALL the English-language books on Bosch except the three I have) and came up with next to nothing. I have a few other avenues I could try, though. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I've leaned on a few friends with JSTOR access, trawled the city and University libraries, and gone through 11 google bosch + garden + influence pages, and nothing. Ceoil (talk) 23:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we should do the original research, publish a paper, make history and reference ourselves. He clearly precedes Di Chirico, Jung, Surrealism, Dali, Magritte, dream imagery, and Hollywood by 400 years or more. There are individual mentions in various biographies acknowledging how Bosch or The Garden of Earthly Delights influenced Duchamp, etc. If there aren't any other books, I'll try to find the one I mentioned the other day - Painters of Fantasy: From Hieronymus Bosch to Salvador Dali by William Gaunt. This book looks interesting too - Surrealism and the Sacred: Power, Eros and the Occult in Modern Art - by Celia Rabinovitch. Also these articles might help us find the literature: Giuseppe Arcimboldo and Fantastic art....Modernist (talk) 01:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Hollywood? Ceoil (talk) 01:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Come to think of it, perhaps I have seen a movie of that center panel... Kafka Liz (talk) 01:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

And that was some movie! Modernist (talk) 02:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

See, I think the problem is that I've been going at this backward, by looking in and for books about Bosch. You're absolutely right, Modernist. The problem is that my familiarity with 20th century art is so sketchy. I'll look into the artists and movements you've mentioned. Are there any more movements that you can think of, besides Surrealism? I think a good survey of such might be help us more than dozens of studies on individual artists. Kafka Liz (talk) 12:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Liz, I wish I had a more extensive library - Besides 20th century Surrealism, and especially Salvador Dali, Rene Magritte, Giorgio De Chirico and Joan Miro, and the somewhat obscure Russian Pavel Tchelitchew, there is Latin American Magic realism including Frida Kahlo, and a number of writers, the late 19th century Symbolists, notably Gustave Moreau, Odilon Redon, Max Klinger, Gustave Doré, Arnold Böcklin; and earlier figures: Henry Fuseli, and William Blake. The rubric Fantastic art is helpful too. Pieter Brueghel the Elder, and Giuseppe Arcimboldo have been mentioned by many authors especially Breughel who Silver discusses. I am also beginning to think that Dante might have been an influence on Bosch. Modernist (talk) 13:04, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm cut off from my library this weekend, but I'll try again on Tuesday. I personally only have Nadeau's History of Surrealism, which contained nothing helpful. Kafka Liz (talk) 21:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Dante was an influence, I remember coming accross that when going through the sources but can't remember where. Frick. Ceoil (talk) 18:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Are any video games based on the painting...! Ceoil (talk) 18:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

<choke!> Kafka Liz (talk) 21:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I read somewhere - fairly recently - of Durer as an influence on Bosch. I don't remember where though, but in the last few days as I've been looking for more recent references of his influence on 20th century art..Modernist (talk) 10:10, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Legacy 2

I found this interesting link: [2]. The auther states Andre Breton cites Bosch as an early example of Surrealism in his first Surrealist Manifesto. Probably worth finding...Modernist (talk) 11:40, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Another possible ref: The following is a passage from Clark's Civilisation, which though not specific in reference to the Garden, is surely suggested in the right-hand panel, and might be of use in either the 'Sources' or proposed 'Legacy' section. Any suggestions for weaving this into the fabric of the article? JNW (talk) 00:22, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

...painters had for long used iron foundries to heighten the imaginative impact of their work with what we call a romantic effect; and they had introduced them into pictures as symbolising the mouth of hell. The first to do so (as far as I know) was Hieronymus Bosch in about 1485. He came from a region of the Low Countries which was one of the first parts of Europe to be industrialised, and as a child the blast of iron foundries must have added a real image to the imaginary horrors that filled his mind. Bosch was much admired in Venice, and in the work of Giorgione and his followers---the first self-conscious Romantics---the iron foundry appears as the mouth of the pagan underworld. Clark, Kenneth, Civilisation, page 324. Harper & Row, New York. 1969.

This Bosch and Bruegel: Inventions, Enigmas and Variations little exhibition at the National Gallery London may help. I can certainly add on Bosch's influence on Bruegel - in his early days he did works passed off as Boschs by Hieronymus Cock, but perhaps that should go on the biography. Dull Gret is one of his most Boschian large works, with several motifs from here. Johnbod (talk) 00:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Influences and legacy?

I'm wondering if we might not rename the Legacy section and expand a bit on the Dante influence. It would be more accurate, and the section as it stands doesn't leave a lot of room for the surrealists. It's already a bit tricky to tie them in as it is, given the apparent lack of Bosch's influence in the intervening years. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:29, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Expand on Dante all you want, but finding RS sources is a problem. :( Ceoil (talk) 00:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I feared that might be the case, since there weren't any citations... This is turning out to be the toughest part of the whole article. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Ach, we're getting there; slowly but surely. Its difficult, but Modernist has established Brugel, and I'm stating to think a connection with Arcimboldo is likely, though we should not force it. The influence on surrealism is for sure, just need a good source. Ceoil (talk) 00:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The Moray article looks pretty good, and she's got some good refs. I'm reading it tonight -- it's not long, but I want to digest it a bit (say overnight) before writing it up. It helps me avoid just paraphrasing it. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:46, 28 May 2008 (UTC)