Talk:The Great Gatsby/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Disc Wheel (talk · contribs) 04:55, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Overall good work my man well written. Just some minor, and I do mean minor, things need fixing. I did make like one or two tiny copyedits.

General

• "On March 19, Fitzgerald asked if the book could be renamed Under the Red, White and Blue but it was at that stage too late to change."

March of what year?

 Done The year is 1925, right before publication. I've beefed up that entire sentence with a couple more refs to boot. Jason Quinn (talk) 00:09, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• "The Great Gatsby, a graphic novel adaptation by Australian cartoonist Nicki Greenberg"
• "Daisy Buchanan's Daughter (2011) by Tom Carson is the purported autobiography of Tom and Daisy Buchanan's daughter"

Punctuation at the end for these two

 Done Jason Quinn (talk) 00:37, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I believe the period should go inside the quotations for the following:

• "Great American Novel".
• "cautionary tale of the decadent downside of the American dream".
• "the title is only fair, rather bad than good".
• "so dumb he doesn't know he's alive".
• "autumn-leaf yellow hair",
• "consciously artistic achievement",

 Partly done need more discussion. See new section below. Jason Quinn (talk) 04:00, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Images

• The image captions for the multiple image ones (that talks about the inspiration for Gatsby's house) the information in the caption is not mentioned in the section where the images are found and that goes against this Wikipedia guideline [Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Images#Avoid_entering_textual_information_as_images]. So I'd remove the citations from the images and then just mention the facts in the prose next to the image with the refs from the images now, if that makes any sense.

 Done Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 22:43, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Make sure the punctuation in the captions for all the images is consistent. Disc Wheel (Malk + Montributions) 23:08, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, per WP:CAPTION. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 02:11, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Refs needed

References are needed after the following sentences:

• "He began planning his third novel in June 1922,[3] but planning was interrupted by production of his play The Vegetable in the summer and fall."

Nutshell Not sure this is actually true. Jason Quinn (talk) 04:00, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

After googling " production of his play The Vegetable fitzgerald" - I found this NYTimes article that I believe proves it true. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 04:21, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

 Done Agreed. Good find. Jason Quinn (talk) 21:15, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• "The Fitzgeralds then moved to Rome for the winter."

 Done Jason Quinn (talk) 16:37, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• "Fitzgerald made revisions through the winter after Perkins informed him that the novel was too vague and Gatsby's biographical section too long."

 Done Changed the sentence to accurately reflect what Perkins said. Jason Quinn (talk) 17:18, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• "Unlike his previous works, Fitzgerald intended to edit and reshape Gatsby thoroughly, believing that it held the potential to launch him toward literary acclaim."

Nutshell I'm struggling to find a source for this. Jason Quinn (talk) 04:00, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Did you check refs #26 and #27 for possible mentions of what the sentence discusses? Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 04:21, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

B Done I have reworked the section that this appeared in and removed it in the process. The section had a more confusing chronological structure than it does now. Jason Quinn (talk) 04:43, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

• "A little-known artist named Francis Cugat was commissioned to illustrate the book while Fitzgerald was in the midst of writing it."

 Done Jason Quinn (talk) 18:12, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• "Fitzgerald's remarks about incorporating the painting into the novel led to the interpretation that the eyes are reminiscent of those of fictional optometrist Dr. T. J. Eckleburg (depicted on a faded commercial billboard near George Wilson's auto repair shop) which Fitzgerald described as "blue and gigantic — their retinas[note 2] are one yard high."

 Done Jason Quinn (talk) 01:56, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

• "On November 7, 1924, Fitzgerald wrote to Perkins that "I have now decided to stick to the title I put on the book ... Trimalchio in West Egg" but was eventually persuaded that the reference was too obscure and that people would not be able to pronounce it."

 Partly done Only found source for the pronunciation part. Jason Quinn (talk) 04:00, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

After just googling "Fitzgerald" and the "I have now decided to stick to the title I put on the book" part, I found this to a google book that would be a RS. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 04:21, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I see this has been fixed now, so I'm passing. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 22:11, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

 Done Yep.. was writing out this explanation when you noticed it: I did however weaken the date from "November 7, 1924" to "November of 1924". I have found numerous sources that seem to indicate the date of this letter is only approximately known as 7 November 1924. The Cambridge University Press edition says on p. 209 of Appendix 3 that the letter is "undated". Page 331 of the "Text 14: An Interdisciplinary Annual of Textual Studies" says "early November" and "ca. 7 November 1924" (in footnote 14). It gives the "Dear Scott/Dear Max" p. 81-82 as a source for that. "The American Mystery: American Literature from Emerson to DeLillo" by Tony Tanner on p. 166 also says "circa 7 November 1924". Many other works also suggest it's an approximate date, which means our previous wording was over-exact and in error. The current wording of the article now just specifies "November" and seems adequate for our purposes. Jason Quinn (talk) 22:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

• "Early drafts of the novel entitled Trimalchio: An Early Version of The Great Gatsby have been published."

 Done Jason Quinn (talk) 22:04, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• "Others, like journalist Nick Gillespie, see The Great Gatsby as a story "about the breakdown of class differences in the face of a modern economy based not on status and inherited position but on innovation and an ability to meet ever-changing consumer needs.""

 Question: This entire paragraph can actually be sourced to the single citation already at the end of the paragraph (Gillespie's article in Reason). Do each of these sentences need to be individually cited or can we just leave the one citation at the end? Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 22:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

 Done per below. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 02:16, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• "As Gillespie states, "While the specific terms of the equation are always changing, it's easy to see echoes of Gatsby's basic conflict between established sources of economic and cultural power and upstarts in virtually all aspects of American society." "

 Question: See above; this may already be covered. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 22:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I personally like to have it all sourced rather than have a person go to the page and delete some of the information because the first few sentences were not source but the last one was. You see what I'm saying? Disc Wheel (Malk + Montributions) 22:55, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

 Done I thought there was something in WP:REF that covered this but I couldn't find anything, so... the refs are now added. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 02:16, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• "The Great Gatsby has sold over 25 million copies worldwide."

 Done Jason Quinn (talk) 18:24, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• "The purpose of the Council was to distribute paperback books to soldiers fighting in the Second World War. The Great Gatsby was one of these books. The books proved to be "as popular as pin-up girls" among the soldiers, according to the Saturday Evening Post's contemporary report."

 Done Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 22:14, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Book Refs

You have partially cited the books correctly. You need to list all the books (including google books) down under the Bibliography heading, even if you use it just once to source some material. For example, currently ref #17 and #18 are done properly (using the < ref>Authorlastname & year, pp. pagenumber</ref>); however, you don't have refs like #22, #21, and more done like that. That make sense? Disc Wheel (Malk + Montributions) 15:52, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

 Question: Could you post some quotes and links to the sections of MOS you are referring to (e.g., from WP:FNNR, Help:Footnotes, Help:Shortened footnotes, Wikipedia:Citing sources)? I haven't found where it says that current version of referencing in the articles is disallowed. Rather than converting the article to a fully shortened footnote style, I would do the opposite and convert it to use all full references (much easier!). But I actually think the current way is optimal and may be permissible by the guidelines. Even if it isn't, I may argue that it's best to keep it as is. I'll wait for follow-up before explaining that angle. Jason Quinn (talk) 05:11, 30 July 2013 (UTC) PS I have found on the FA criteria where it mentions (2c) about using only inline refs or parenthetical refs. I agree completely that mixing those two styles is generally bad, however this article does not use parenthetical refs, only inline refs and shortened footnotes, which is different. Lastly, it seems that stringent conformance of referencing may be a FA criteria, and perhaps not a GA criteria. Jason Quinn (talk) 05:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah I think that is acceptable since this is GA. So nevermind there. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 15:40, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the review

Hi, User:Disc Wheel. I'll start working on the things you mention to try to bring the article up to snuff. Thank you for your review and your suggestions. Jason Quinn (talk) 19:08, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Quotes and punctuation

I have changed some of the punctuation used near quotes as suggested above but not all. In fact, I'm not sure what is best and will need to read more MOS for some of the cases. Wikipedia does use Wikipedia:Logical_quotation, so I used that for direct quotes. Many of the items in the article surrounded by quotes marks are not actual quotes however but figures of speech (such a "Great American Novel") or self-referencing items like when the words "retinas" and "irises" were used. Such items function as a unit and should not be contaminated so-to-speak by punctuation. This is for some the same reasons that motivate logical quotation, such as better searches through copy-n-paste, etc. I will study-up the MOS but I surpringlysurprisingly have mostly only found advise relating to actual quotes. Jason Quinn (talk) 04:00, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I just remember my english teachers saying that the punctuation goes inside the quotation marks... Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 04:21, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

The situation is more complicated than this. There's a disparity between American and British usage of punctuation in quotations. The British tend to use "logical punctuation", while Americans tend to write as you suggest. At Wikipedia, however, the logical punctuation is used (MOS:LQ). Interestingly, I recall reading about a study that shows Americans are also moving towards logical quotation as well and that suggested that logical punctuation's better suitability for electronic communication was the cause. (I am American but a strong proponent of logical punctuation for this reason.) As per MOS:LQ, I have put the punctuation inside when it is part of the actual quote, but i have left the punctuation outside if there's no direct punctuation being quoted, or when quotes are used to isolate parts of speech. I checked and changed the article to make sure it's consistent (at least under my interpretation of things). Jason Quinn (talk) 04:58, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Okay that's fine with me then. Now that just leaves the partly done correction about Fitzgerald talking to Perkins and this is GA my boy. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 15:40, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Passing

Pass I'm passing the article after the nominator and one other editor fixed all the issues I outlined. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 22:11, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Woo-hoo! Thank you for your very careful initial review and very helpful work during the process, User:Disc Wheel. I look forward to editting with you again in the future. Regarding Gatsby-related things, the new Luhrmann Gatsby movie will be released in home formats on August 27. I expect a bump in traffic around then. It'd be really cool to get this to FA status before then. I don't know if I'll have the energy to get it there before the August 27 date though. We'll see. It would be great to get a well-timed front page article though. Thanks again for all your valuable feedback. Also, thank you to Orange Suede Sofa, whose input and collaboration was very valuable and friendly. Jason Quinn (talk) 22:42, 30 July 2013 (UTC)