Talk:The Holocaust in Germany

== nazi germany and the jews (holocaust ) ==

introduction 41.115.52.217 (talk) 09:26, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Infobox

Buidhe, I've corrected the infobox as noted, however this article needs to be built up, so reverting the entire infobox and the links that I added defeats the purpose. The pages The Holocaust and The Holocaust in Poland both have infoboxes, so adding a small one to this article should not be particularity questionable. Also, some of the minor edits like revising the image caption for the deportations from Kitzingen was needed. The current caption is taken from the USHMM website, which is the source of the image. The earlier image description made it sound like both Jews and Germans were being deported. Also, I'll leave the tags, but I'm not sure it is a good option to have all these tags in the article asking editors to expand the text, after all you could have such a tag in a lot of other articles in Wikipedia, because there is always something more to add or expand on. E-960 (talk) 17:37, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

In my talk page comment, I explained why I am against infoboxes for this article. I am glad that you removed the most egregious misleading content. Unfortunately, there is precious little in the infobox that is not either disputed or likely to confuse Wikipedia readers.

• Dates: 1941 to 1945 is the most common date used for the Holocaust as a whole, but for this article many sources are going to start in 1933 and what dates are covered varies widely (just look at the sources/further reading section)
• Death figure: You and I know that this is the total number of German Jews who died, but the reader doesn't know whether it's that or the number of Jews who died in Germany.
• The "Attack type" is misleading as there were no gas chambers inside Germany's prewar borders and no mass murder of Jews in Germany for nearly all of the time the Holocaust in Germany was ongoing. Ethnic cleansing currently fails verification
• Location is not helpful to readers because it is obvious from the title but does not clarify which of Germany's borders (pre-1937, after 1939, the current borders) are meant
• Perpetrators: I do not think that this factor can be accurately conveyed in an infobox, because those responsible for aspects of the Holocaust ranged from some ordinary civilians to Nazi Party institutions in addition to the German/NS state

All of these factors can be covered in much more nuanced and clear fashion in text compared to an infobox.

Infoboxes being used on other genocide-related articles often have similar issues to what I outlined here. (t · c) buidhe 01:06, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Buidhe, I can understand the frustration some might have with inboxes, though I think that a basic infobox would be ok here, especially that the other two articles related to the topic, the Holocaust and the Holocaust in Poland, both have infoboxes. --E-960 (talk) 16:02, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm not anti-infobox in general but I think that they are not a good fit for genocide related articles because they lack nuance. Again, just because an infobox is used does not mean it is free of these issues. (t · c) buidhe 16:53, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Tags

User:Dl2000, can we go ahead and remove the "you expand this article with text translated from..." tags. At this point, the article is past the stub phase and the excessive tagging makes the article look like it's in someone's Sandbox. Also, you could quite literally place such a tag in most other articles on the English language Wikipedia berceuse there is always an example of a better more in-depth article in another language. Such tags are really meant for stub articles to get things going; editors need to step up, not just tag the article. E-960 (talk) 15:53, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Although the previous removal of those tags included some material from the Hebrew article, there were still several soruces in the French and German article that probably should be incorporated. de:Deportation von Juden aus Deutschland currently has 81 citations, while the English article currently has 53. fr:Juifs d'Allemagne sous le Troisième Reich has various sources not yet represented here (e.g. Raul Hilberg, Alfred Wahl).

That said, the tags could be replaced by requests on this talk page to include the outstanding sources. However, @Synotia: added these tags, so perhaps should have an opportunity to comment. Dl2000 (talk) 17:28, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Dl2000, perhaps at this time we can go ahead and remove the tags as there is no additional comments on this, and as I mentioned before the article is past the stub phase. --E-960 (talk) 09:39, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Seeing no other comment at this point ...  Done Dl2000 (talk) 02:43, 14 October 2023 (UTC)