Talk:The Holocaust in Greece

Untitled

https://ejournals.epublishing.ekt.gr/index.php/historein/article/view/14627 https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1524/9783486708332.241/html https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15595692.2016.1219847 https://dietz-verlag.de/downloads/leseproben/4238.pdf https://bibliothek.edition-romiosini.de/catalog/book/13 Die Überlebenden. Widerstand, Deportation, Rückkehr. Juden aus Thessaloniki in den 1940er Jahren free access Antoniou, G., S. Dordanas, N. Marantzidis, and N. Zaikos. 2011. To olokautoma sta Valkania [The Holocaust in the Balkans]. Thessaloniki: Epikentro. https://www.worldcat.org/title/opseis-hekato-eton-thessalonike-1912-2012-8-semeia-kampes-dialexeis/oclc/1029511835&referer=brief_results

"The Greek Jewish community is the oldest in Europe"

Buidhe Your work here is looking good. I did want to remark, however... Personally, I would find it more accurate to say the Romaniote Jewish community. The (large) majority of Jews in Greece circa 1930 did not, however, belong to the Romaniote community. From the perspective of the different (sub-)Jewish identities, I'm not sure we can say there was ever a single "Greek Jewish community" (post 16th century that is, at least). There was the Romaniote community, and there was the Ladino-speaking Se(f/ph)ardic community which had closer ties to the Jews of Wallachia, Bulgaria, Bosnia et cetera. They had markedly different histories, different cultural outlooks (well of course there is some cross-fertilization... but still, you know what I mean) and indeed, different identities still in the early 20th century. --Calthinus (talk) 01:26, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Also, I'd say the distinction in the case of Thessaloniki, where the Jews were overwhelmingly of Sephardic origin, and that different history of being given safe haven by the Ottomans and becoming economic rivals of the local (Greek) Christian population has been floated as an explanation for the different outcomes (i.e. whereby in Thessaloniki, the local (Christian) Greeks much less protective of the Jewish population than in other regions, especially the islands). I should re-review the literature on the matter, but I have certainly encountered that view. --Calthinus (talk) 01:41, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback! I have now implemented the first one. I am aware of the second issue, having read about it in The Holocaust in Greece book, and plan to work it in somewhere. (t · c) buidhe 11:47, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Desertarun (talk) 21:47, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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Deportation of Jews from Ioannina

• ... that more than 80% of Jews were killed during the Holocaust in Greece (pictured)? Source: various, see article

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Mark C. Yerger
• Comment: Please include the image as this is an iconic photograph

Created by Buidhe (talk). Self-nominated at 04:25, 10 May 2021 (UTC).

I don't have access to the book in the article references, but it seems straightforward to me. The statistic (and the image) is certainly eye-catching and seems like a good hook. Buffaboy ^talk 08:57, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Comments

You might want to include a reference to the Holocaust Museum of Greece and the Athens Jewish Museum in the Legacy section. As far as the Greek Army surrender being due to an internal coup is concerned this claim contradicts the Battle of Greece article. The Epirus Army surrendered as it was outflanked and further resistance was futile. I have likewise read that the Germans did not expect Georgios Tsolakoglou to so readily become a collaborator when they offered him the position of Prime Minister. So the premeditated coup theory does not make much sense.--Catlemur (talk) 20:30, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

This is actually supported by the cited source, which states:

The Greek government formed on April 26, 1941 following the German invasion was composed of mutinous generals, traitors who sought to reshape Greek politics... The generals combined a military coup with treason by surrendering to the Germans on April 20, 1941. These Greek officers rebelled against their own government, which was still in power and operating from the island of Crete , and unlawfully took power. For months previously, General Georgios Tsolakoglou and other officers had been secretly organizing a mutiny to take Greece out of the war.

Various primary and secondary sources are cited but since you say this is a minority interpretation I will remove it. (t · c) buidhe 20:59, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Added info on museums. (t · c) buidhe 21:51, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:The Holocaust in Greece/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Hog Farm (talk · contribs) 00:47, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks so much for taking this review! Just so you know my ultimate goal is FAC so if you see any areas that could be improved, feedback would be much appreciated. (t · c) buidhe 08:40, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Work has suddenly gotten fairly busy; hopefully I'll be able to get to this in a couple days. Hog Farm _Talk 02:15, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

• Actually, I've been occupied elsewhere as well so it's for the best. Thanks again for reviewing! (t · c) buidhe 05:16, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

• "The collaborationist Greek government began to see Bulgaria as the main threat and did all it could to secure German support in restraining Bulgaria" - It's strongly implied that the Greek government was overhauled when the country was overrun, but this maybe should be stated directly, especially given the swing towards antisemitism.
  • Yes, I briefly discuss in the Axis occupation section that the country was run in effect by a military dictatorship. The only Greek government with international recognition at this time was the Greek government-in-exile, which is now directly mentioned in the article
• "On 6 February, the SS group tasked with the deportation arrived in the city and set up headquarters at 42 Velissariou Street in a confiscated Jewish villa" - Maybe worth linking the SS? Fairly well known, but probably wouldn't hurt
  • Done
• "Historian Kostis Kornetis states that "the elimination of Jews from Thessaloniki’s economic life was eventually welcomed by both elites and the general public"" - Is there a way to work in earlier in the article that Thessaloniki and Salonica are equivalent so that the connection of this quote to the Salonica events makes more sense to the average reader.
  • Mentioned both names in the background section and glossed it in the quote
• "According to Michael Matsas, the decisive factors influencing survival rates were the strength of resistance organizations and the reaction of the Jewish leadership" - Recommend glossing that Matsas was a Greek Holocaust survivor, as that adds some significance to his listed factors
  • Done
• "The Greek foreign ministry attempted to delay or prevent their return to Greece" - Is it known why?
  • Kavala mentions this in the context of property (non-)return, but doesn't explicitly that was the reason. Another possible reason is that some Zionist organizers attempted to smuggle non-Greek Jews towards Palestine by having them pretend to be Greek Jews so they could be repatriated to that country.
• "and antisemitism could be passed of as a principled anti-Zionism" - I'm struggling to quite figure this phrasing out. Is this a typo for "passed off as a ..."?
  • Correct, fixed the typo
• Source link for File:Prisoners sorting confiscated property at Auschwitz II-Birkenau.jpg takes me to the information page for a different image
  • Fixed (is the correct link)
• Not an expert on this sort of thing, so I'm quite likely wrong, but would File:Athens greece forged identity card world war 2.jpeg need a tag for the underlying work as well? (Normally wouldn't question this at GAN since the use of the image is almost certainly gonna be fine, but want to double check on this since it will be going to FAC eventually)
  • Hmm, you're right. I was assuming that the uploader held the copyright to the card, but the more I think about it, the more it seems like a flawed assumption. Swapped for a different one.
• Sourcing is of very high quality, and the image are licensed correctly to the best of my knowledge aside from the two queries above.

Excellent work. I'd support this at FAC. Hog Farm _Talk 03:02, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

• Thank you! (t · c) buidhe 04:37, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

References

Lead

It appears that my edits to the lead have caused controversy. My issue with the original lead,

The Holocaust in Greece was the mass murder of Greek Jews

Is that it restates what the Holocaust was, which in my view is such common knowledge that the restatement is an insult to the reader's intelligence/experience. My edits trying to ameliorate the situation were met with resistance and an edit tussle resulted. To some points in the scuffle, I was not present during this article's FAC but would have insisted on the lead's wording being changed had I participated.

Thrakkx has unbolded the lead, in my opinion rightfully, but has kept the problematic "the Holocaust in Greece was the Holocaust, in Greece" wording. I'm open to changes to the opening wording other than what I have done.

– John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 14:58, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the opening sentence is worded poorly. It reminds me of the start-class articles that begin with "x in y" refers to x in y... (e.g. The Holocaust in Latvia). I saw the back-and-forth and so removed just the bolding. If the editors who got this article to FA insist on this opening, fine with me, but the bolding needs to stay gone. Thrakkx (talk) 15:06, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm often in favor of not bolding, but I can't see how the guideline you referenced actually requires not bolding in this case. (t · c) buidhe 16:32, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

It's a mistake to assume that the sentence is tautological. (t · c) buidhe 16:35, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

I disagree, per my earlier statement and Thrakkx's comments. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 21:29, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure how that changing "the Holocaust in Greece was" to "In Greece, the Holocaust was" is an improvement. If the previous version was a tautology, then so is this. I don't have a strong opinion on whether the previous opening could be improved, just that the current one has the same issues. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:31, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

I changed it to that wording when I removed the bolding to discourage another editor from coming along later and undoing it. Thrakkx (talk) 03:23, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

It gives undue weight to the chosen title, implying that it is an official term, commonly accepted name, or the only acceptable title; in actuality, it is just a description and the event or topic is given many different names in common usage. Thrakkx (talk) 18:32, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Just so everyone's aware, the TFA blurb currently retains the "hit Greece especially hard" wording. There's a thread about it at Main Page talk. Sojourner in the earth (talk) 17:35, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Maps

The two maps are very disproportionately large (at least on my browser), crowding the side-text into a very thin paragraph, making them practically unreadable. I can't seem able to fix it. If someone else can fix it, it would be appreciated. Walrasiad (talk) 16:17, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

translation to Greek language

Hello all,

I wish to add a full article translation to the Greek language. I noticed, some Greek historic books avoid using the words "WW2, Nazis, Jews, Transportation to Labor and Death camps" .... instead the write about: "German occupation of Greece, no mentioning of Jews, just write - Greek ppl, and has no data about the Holocaust of the Greek Jewish ppl ..."

In order to eliminate 'Holocaust Denying Horrible trend' - I wish to get assistance to have this article translate to Greek, so young generation will know the Truth about the past, instead of distorted lies about what occured in Greece st that time.

Thank you for assistance with Wikipedia admin, translation via Google or other proper means 🙏

AS Drmedas (talk) 06:43, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi Drmedas, thanks for your interest in this page. If you are fluent in Greek you can translate this page to Greek and post it on the Greek wikipedia, see the guidance at Wikipedia:Translate us (t · c) buidhe 13:59, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

@Buidhe

Hi Buidhe,

Thank you for your response!

I'm not a fluent in Greek, I'd be happy if this post can be forwarded to ppl who can contribute to a grammatically correct translation to Greek, so an important port of their history, the catastrophic impact of the Holocaust on their Jewish Citizens would be acceptable to read and learn properly, by young generation, as all ages who do not speak and read English fluently...

Thanks for assistance, and sharing this important request, to translate this important Wikipedia page to Greek 🙏 Drmedas (talk) 02:10, 10 October 2023 (UTC)