Talk:The Idiot (album)

Ian Curtis

Don't you think the part about his suicide was a bit under-developed? I mean, I think it's a bit insulting that Joy Division is listed under bands the album influenced right before the casual mentioning of his death.

Go ahead and edit it if you feel it will improve the article 154.20.202.31 03:28, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

The Cover

I find it highly unlikely that the cover photo for this album was taken by a kid from new zealand who would have been 7 years old. I've not got access to the two references, but this should be verified and removed if wrong.

Datakid (talk) 14:04, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

They are referring to this famous rock photographer: http://www.rockpaperphoto.com/photographer_andrew_kent — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rauschpotato (talk • contribs) 18:01, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

--Rauschpotato (talk) 18:02, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Post-Punk

how can it be post-punk when it was recorded in 1977? (the year of PUNK). 188.222.41.105 (talk) 20:01, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

1977 may have been when Never Mind the Bollocks came out but I think most commentators consider 1975-76 the year(s) of punk. However in terms of assigning genres to this album article, it isn't really up to you and me, more how critics describe it... By the way, if you're interested in contributing to Wikipedia, why not give yourself a user name so we know who we're talking to? ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:37, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:The Idiot (album)/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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Start class: Y A reasonably complete infobox Y A lead section giving an overview of the album Y A track listing Y Reference to at least primary personnel by name (must specify performers on the current album; a band navbox is insufficient) Y Categorisation at least by artist and year C class: Y All the start class criteria Y A reasonably complete infobox, including cover art Y At least one section of prose (in addition to the lead section) Y A track listing containing track lengths and authors for all songs Y A "personnel" section listing performers, including guest musicians. B class: Y All the C class criteria Y A completed infobox, including cover art and most technical details Y A full list of personnel, including technical personnel and guest musicians Y No obvious issues with sourcing, including the use of blatantly improper sources. Y No significant issues exist to hamper readability, although it may not rigorously follow Good job! I don't have this album so I can't see the technical personnel listing, but only Bowie is missing seems to be listed as producer for the album's technical stuff. I'm glad an important album like this has well cited and interesting information on wikipedia. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:39, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 05:39, 19 September 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 08:12, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:The Idiot (album)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: K. Peake (talk · contribs) 08:19, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

It is only fair for me to review this after you took on "Street Lights" earlier this weekend; might take a bit longer than usual, but will be done within the one week guideline. --K. Peake 08:19, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Infobox and lead

• Why is punk rock not listed under genres in the infobox?

• I have no idea; fixed.

• "is the debut solo album" → "is the debut studio album"

• Done

• "Pop descended into" → "Pop struggled with" because the addiction started when he was in the band, but became more prominent afterwards

• Done

• "He accepted an invitation" → "Pop accepted an invitation"

• Done

• The word Tour should begin with capitalisation

• Done; honestly never know if it should or not

• "and move to Europe" → "in moving to Europe"

• Done

• "to produce Pop's first solo album." → "to produce the album."

• Changed to "an album" as this wasn't conceived at that point yet. – zmbro _(talk) 00:44, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• "the album marks a" → "The Idiot marks a" because it is the first reference of the album in this para

• Done

• "Recording for The Idiot began" → "Recording for it began"

• Done

• Are you sure it is needed to mention Munich being in Germany in the lead when you don't mention what country Hérouville is in?

• Good point I didn't think about that, fixed.

• "most of the music for the record and" → "most of the music and" because we already know this is about the recording of the album

• Done

• Maybe change "of the same title" to "of the same name" to be less repetitive

• Done

• Shouldn't it be "features a sound similar" since the album still exists?

• Yes, was writing in past tense

• Edit the prose of the third para's second sentence to avoid using The Idiot twice in one sentence; not sure to write the former or latter because it's the second album mentioned directly in the previous sentence but the first one referenced

• Agreed that it was said too much but didn't know how to word it better at the time. It almost as if it warrants it be said so often because of the conflicts with Low. What do you think? – zmbro _(talk) 00:44, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• I think you can do the rewording; change the second mention of The Idiot in the sentence to "the aforementioned". --K. Peake 06:42, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Done – zmbro _(talk) 18:46, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• "The Idiot received divided," → "the album received divided," since it is the most recent one mentioned and write that these were from music critics

• Done

• "many comparing it to" → "many drawing comparisons to"

• Done

• "It was accompanied by the release of two singles," → "Two accompanying singles were released," with the pipe and mention the respective release months

• Done

• Mention which single his own version was of

• Done

• "supported the album" → "supported The Idiot"

• Done

• "second solo album," → "second studio album,"

• Done

• "and fans regard it as" → "and regarded by fans as"

• Done

• "consider it being" → "consider the album as"

• Done

• "The album is considered having" → "It is considered to have"

• Done

Background

• There is one quote here about 1973, so reword the img text accordingly

• Not sure I'm understanding what you're getting at... – zmbro _(talk) 01:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• The img lacks relevance, as it displays Pop in 1973 but there is nothing in prose to do with his presence in the year. Also, change Iggy Pop to Pop on the text since this is not a first mention in prose. --K. Peake 06:42, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Ohh I see what you mean now. I just removed it as you're right it doesn't have much relevance here. – zmbro _(talk) 18:46, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Remove introduction to Iggy Pop here since he is the main subject, plus are the full name and wikilink really needed?

• When doing the Hunky Dory FAC I was told when you first mention someone in the body it should be full name + wikilink so that's what I've done for every subsequent article. – zmbro _(talk) 01:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• "became friends. Bowie was hired" → "became friends, before Bowie was hired" to avoid overly short sentences

• Done

• Pipe mix to Audio mixing (recorded music)

• Done, although that might be WP:SEAOFBLUE – zmbro _(talk) 01:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Pipe James Williamson to James Williamson (musician)

• Done

• "but these were" → "but the tracks were"

• Done

• Use the full name for University of California, Los Angeles per MOS:ACROFIRSTUSE

• How would you word this with the full name? – zmbro _(talk) 01:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Try something like "into the Neuropsychiatric Institute at University of California, Los Angeles" maybe? --K. Peake 06:42, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Changed to "the Neuropsychiatric Institute at the University of California in Los Angeles" – zmbro _(talk) 18:46, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• "got together in mid-1975" → "reunited in mid-1975" because otherwise it sounds like a relationship

• Good point, done

• "the sessions were unproductive." → "the sessions were mostly unproductive." per the note

• Done

• "cleanup his act, he accepted" → "clean-up his act, Pop accepted"

• Done

• Specify that Station to Station is a Bowie album from the same year to avoid confusion

• Done

• "a new song," → "a new song, titled"

• Done

• "it live on" → "the song live on" but you need to specify if it was Pop or Bowie that performed the song, as the current prose does not

• Done

• Wikilink Munich and introduction it as being in Germany

• Done

• "but after visiting the" → "However, after visiting the" to avoid a run-on sentence

• Done

• "at the Château for later in the summer," → "at the Château for later in the summer of 1976," because this is not specific currently, especially with 1973 mentioned previously

• Done

Recording

• "to record Pop's first solo album." → "to record The Idiot."

• Didn't wanna say the title here as the title wasn't known at this point, they were merely just recording. – zmbro _(talk) 01:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Change to "an album" as you did in the lead, then. --K. Peake 06:42, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Done – zmbro _(talk) 18:46, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• "owner, Laurent Thibault, the former bassist of the French band Magma and" → "owner Laurent Thibault, the former bassist of French band Magma, and"

• Done

• "on keyboard and" → "with keyboard and" or something similar, as you have used "on" too recently before this

• Changed "him on a Baldwin" to "him using a Baldwin" so hope that helps. – zmbro _(talk) 01:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Yeah, that gets rid of the problem with the corresponding prose. --K. Peake 06:42, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Pipe Baldwin electric piano to Baldwin Piano Company

• Done

• If Bowie adding guitar parts was around the same time as the dismissal, start the sentence with subsequently

• Done

• "any of his previous albums" should be reworded to "any of Bowie's albums" or "any albums he previously worked on", depending on what the source says since this does not make sense in an article about Pop's album does it?

• I kind of thought that too but I added this just to point out that Bowie had A LOT to do with making an album that wasn't his. I mean he played more guitar on his friend's album than he did for any of his own; I thought that was kind of insane. It also goes along with me worrying about whether it was too Bowie-centric. Plus, Seabrook gives a great amount of detail on the recordings of The Idiot and Lust for Life, on top of the Berlin Trilogy", which I did not expect and was a huge plus. If we do keep that, rewording it to either of your suggestions wouldn't sound good imo. – zmbro _(talk) 01:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• I am not entirely sure what to change to, even though this part is too focused on Bowie; maybe "previous efforts" or something similar? --K. Peake 06:42, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• I'll make it easy and just remove that sentence. – zmbro _(talk) 18:46, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Wikilink synthesizer

• Done

• "to the record." → "to the album."

• Done

• "In July, Bowie" mention the year here since it's a new para

• Done

• "rhythm section of" → "rhythm section consisting of"

• Done

• "for the record," → "for The Idiot,"

• Done

• "continued in August at" → "continued in August 1976 at"

• Done

• Remove wikilink on Munich and mention of it being in Germany since the place should have been introduced earlier

• Done

• "and electronic producer" → "and electronic dance music producer" with the wikilink, per Moroder's article

• Done

• Pipe overdubs to Overdubbing

• Done

• "during the day" → "during the daytime"

• Done

• "work with Bowie on" → "work with him on"

• Done

• "recorded for the album" → "recorded for The Idiot"

• Done

• "with an old" → "and using an old" to avoid overusage of "with"

• Done

• Either mention the date recording finished or write "When recording had been completed..."

• Don't have a specific date, just that it was finished and mixed in August. Changed to "When recording was completed". – zmbro _(talk) 01:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• "to help mix the record, so as to familiarize himself" → "to help with mixing, so as to familiarize him" because Visconti was the one getting familiarized

• Done

Styles and themes

• "of his former band, the Stooges." → "of the Stooges." because we already know he had left the band at this point

• Done

• Pipe electronic to Electronic music

• Done

• "a quickened pulse,"" → "a quickened pulse"," per MOS:QUOTE

• Done

• "has called it" → "has called The Idiot"

• Done

Side one

• "style of Bowie's" → "style of Bowie's tracks"

• Done

• "has described as a" → "described as a"

• Done

• "of the first verse" → "of the opening verse" to avoid repetitive wording

• Done

• Wikilink imagery, but the part preceding the comma is unsourced

• Removed that part so the sentence starts with "Reviewers". – zmbro _(talk) 01:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• "is irrelevant: "she" → "is irrelevant, explaining that "she"

• Done

• Wikilink disco
• Pipe distorted to Distortion (music)

• These two items would be WP:SEAOFBLUE – zmbro _(talk) 01:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Maybe distorted, but disco can be wikilinked because it's a music genre. --K. Peake 06:42, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Done – zmbro _(talk) 18:46, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• "have compared its style" → "have compared the song's style"

• Done

• "For this track, Bowie" → "For the track, Bowie"

• Done

• Is the apostrophe after talking really part of the quote?

• That was supposed to be talkin'. Fixed.

• "as high as Pop's lead." → "as high as Pop's lead ones."

• Done

• "considers it more" → "considers the song more"

• Done

• "that's about to" → "that is soon to"

• Done

• "Production-wise it is" → "Production-wise, it is"

• Done

• "It is led" → "The song is led"

• Done

• "at the Château" → "at the château"

• It's the name of the building so it should be capital. – zmbro _(talk) 01:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• A château is a type of building, meaning that the capitalisation is not needed; even see the article to understand this. --K. Peake 06:42, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Done – zmbro _(talk) 18:46, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Side two

• "and...the title,"" → "and...the title"," per MOS:QUOTE

• Done

• "Scott Asheton and James Williamson." → "Scott Asheton, and Williamson."

• Done

• "considers it Pop's" → "considers it Pop's equivalent to" and then mention the song being by Bowie after its title

• Done

• "he had Palmer" → "he ultimately had Palmer"

• Done

• "between the album's two longest tracks," → "between the two longest tracks on The Idiot,"

• Done

• "describes it as a" → "describes the song as a"

• Done

• "noises" created by" → "noises", created by"

• Done

• Wikilink tape loops

• Done

• "Bowie suggested the lyric" firstly, you should write line instead of lyric if it is about one. Secondly, what line is being referred to here?

• Pegg just says "the lyric" and gives the quote, so I'm assuming all lyrics. – zmbro _(talk) 01:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Either change to "the lyrics" or "a line", I believe so. --K. Peake 06:42, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Done – zmbro _(talk) 18:46, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Release and promotion

• "The record's title was" → "The title of The Idiot was"

• Done

• Again, shouldn't it be "of the same name" instead?

• Done

• "In an interview with Pop in 1985, he said" → "In an 1985 interview, Pop said" since otherwise it may sound like Bowie was involved in the interview

• Done

• "to the Dostoevsky novel" → "to the novel"

• Done

• "in the Roquairol painting." → "in the painting."

• Done

• "before The Idiot was released." → "before the release."

• Done

• "Bowie's album Low was recorded between" → "Bowie recorded Low between" because it is already known to be his album

• Changed to "Bowie recorded Low between"

• "Because Low had a" → "Because of Low having a"
• "Low and its first single" → "the former and its lead single" with the wikilink

• "Sound and Vision" did not appear as a single until a month after Low came out so it technically wasn't the lead single because it wasn't like regular singles (showing up before the album as a way to introduce the audience to its sound); RCA didn't have faith in Low selling (even though it did), and basically released "Sound" cuz they knew it had to have a single and chose the most upbeat-sounding track on the album. If lead in this case means first, then yes it was the lead single, but it wasn't in the case of normal lead singles. – zmbro _(talk) 01:52, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• "they did on" → "which they did on"

• Done

• "marking the first time an Iggy Pop album had cracked the top 40." → "marking Pop's first top 40 album."

• Done

• "he assembled a band" – only keep he if it was Bowie, elsewise change to Pop for avoiding confusion

• "He" in this instance is referring to Bowie – zmbro _(talk) 01:52, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Add release year of Lust for Life in brackets

• Done

• "including Nick Kent of NME," → "including Nick Kent,"

• Done

• "until April 16." → "until April 16, 1977."

• Done

• "he took a more" → "Pop took a more"

• Done

Critical reception

• "writes listeners' perceptions" → "writes that listeners' perceptions"

• Done

• "Allan Jones praised" are you sure it should be this and not praises, as the source is an offline one?

• Done

• "of modern music."" → "of modern music"." per MOS:QUOTE

• Done

• I don't think the review for Circus part is notable since it is already known that Strick writes for the magazine

• Done; I believe I wrote this section before adding these bits to styles and themes.

• "Strick further complimented" → "He further complimented"

• Done

• "Riegel of Creem noted the difference in" → "Riegel noted the difference between"

• Done

• "Like other reviewers," → "Similarly to other reviewers,"

• Done

• "bluff...and beauty"." → "bluff...and beauty."" if this is a full sentence quoted; elsewise, keep as it currently is

• Done

• "Paul Trynka wrote" → "Paul Trynka writes" with the wikilink

• Done

• "praised the record, stating:" → "praised it, stating:"

• Done

Legacy

• "Although it's now" → "Although it is now"

• Done

• "criticized the work as" → "criticized The Idiot as"

• Done

• "of the record, Riegel commented," → "of the record, Riegel comments,"

• Done

• Again, reword the img text to something of relevance

• I mainly added the two photos here so the page as a whole wasn't so bland. WP unfortunately doesn't have many photos of either Bowie nor Pop (especially the former) during this period so I wanted to give at least something. In October '77, Pop would have been supporting Lust for Life and he did play a number of Idiot songs on that tour, could I just mention that? – zmbro _(talk) 01:56, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Yes that is a good idea; change to something beginning with "During 1977," before the appropriate info. --K. Peake 06:42, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Changed to "Pop performed songs from The Idiot during the Lust for Life tour in late 1977." with source. – zmbro _(talk) 18:46, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• [24] should only be after the second comma since you shouldn't invoke the same ref twice in one sentence

• Done

• "Joy Division,[24] who formed" → "Joy Division;[24] the latter of the three formed" because otherwise it sounds kind of like you are talking about all of the aforementioned

• Done

• Remove commas around Ian Curtis

• Done, commas get confusing

• "the record still playing" is this Unknown Pleasure or The Idiot? Please specify in the prose.

• Done (it was this album)

• "of his favorite albums." → "of his 13 favorite albums."

• Done

2020 deluxe edition

• "alternate mixes and a" → "alternate mixes, and a"

• Done

Track listing

• Shouldn't the writers be wikilinked?

• Typically yeah, done

• You need a source to verify that those are the writing credits

• My bad, done

Personnel

• This does not seem to follow any form of alphabetical order, nor credits since you have drums personnel not listed next to each other; please add a specific order

• That better? (the instruments are at least grouped together now). – zmbro _(talk) 01:59, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Yes, this looks fine. --K. Peake 06:42, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Charts

• Add "for The Idiot" at the end of the caption

• Done

Notes

• Good

References

• Copyvio score looks moderately good at 32.0%

• thumbs up

• Author-link Will Hodgkinson and Alexis Petridis on ref 4

• Done

• WP:OVERLINK of AllMusic on refs 25 and 38, plus fix MOS:QWQ issues with the latter

• Done

• Italicise The Idiot on ref 26

• Done

• Wikilink Rock's Backpages on ref 33

• Done

• WP:OVERLINK of NME on ref 72

• Done

Sources

• Remove wikilink on Omnibus Press for the second mention

• Done

• Pipe Helter Skelter to Helter Skelter Publishing

• Done

External links

• Good

Final comments and verdict

•  On hold until everything is fixed, after I went over this in two days! --K. Peake 08:08, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

• Kyle Peake Quick question before I start, do you think I overall emphasized Bowie too much? This really stems from the fact that Bowie is the one that brought Iggy out of his dark place and was the one who basically made this album happen (he composed literally all the music). I primarily expanded this with Bowie biographies (plus Trynka's one on Iggy), but do you think Bowie is a little over-emphasized? That was my main concern with nominating. – zmbro _(talk) 23:38, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

• Zmbro No I do not believe that Bowie is overemphasized in the article, thus not violating the focus criterion. He obviously did heavily help with creating the album, making him a very notable contributor. --K. Peake 07:04, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

• Thank you, good to hear. I'll start making changes tonight. – zmbro _(talk) 16:11, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

• Kyle Peake Comments are above. Thanks for reviewing. – zmbro _(talk) 02:01, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Zmbro Thank you for your comments and hard work, I have left relevant responses above! --K. Peake 06:42, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Kyle Peake Done. Thanks again for reviewing. – zmbro _(talk) 18:46, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Zmbro ✓ Pass now, good job on this over the past couple of days! --K. Peake 08:33, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

• This is the Featured Article today. Good job! Technophant (talk) 19:07, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

obsession with and over emphasizing drugs?

Says all members had drug addictions in the stooges, not true Ron Ashton never did hard drugs or heroin. Says stooges broke up because of drugs and in-fighting, not true it was lack of commercial success and being DROPPED FROM THEIR RECORD LABEL. Who writes this stuff? Drugs are consyantly brought up in many music articles as if to be a musician is to be a drug addict supported by music. the sources often dont contain evidence to support unsubstantiated claims. 2600:1012:B1C2:852E:74E3:BDC5:94D3:2440 (talk) 11:37, 26 September 2022 (UTC)