Talk:The Idler Wheel...

Suggested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:28, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

The Idler Wheel → The Idler Wheel Is Wiser Than the Driver of the Screw and Whipping Cords Will Serve You More Than Ropes Will Ever Do – Actual title. Redirect was created there (by me) earlier today. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:57, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Keep, for now at least. The When the Pawn... article isn't When the pawn hits the conflicts he thinks like a king, What he knows throws the blows when he goes to the fight, And he'll win the whole thing 'fore he enters the ring, There's no body to batter when your mind is your might, So when you go solo, you hold your own hand, And remember that depth is the greatest of heights, And if you know where you stand, then you know where to land, And if you fall it won't matter, cause you'll know that you're right. Perhaps a move to The Idler Wheel... would be more appropriate. Also, I thought article titles were meant to be common names--I doubt people will be calling the album by its full title. --Another Believer _(Talk) 16:48, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Response When the Pawn has that title due to technical restrictions--MediaWiki can't accept a title that long. As far as the application of WP:COMMONNAME, do you know of any album titles that are the common name rather than the actual name? E.g. The Beatles (album) and not The White Album, although the latter is certainly far more common. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:28, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

So if the technical restriction did not apply the article for When the Pawn... would have the full title of the album even though everyone simply refers to it as When the Pawn? I certainly want this article to comply with WP standards and naming conventions and would appreciate others to chime in regarding the title. I imagine we could both find instances (of albums, names, geographic locations, etc.) on Wikipedia where abbreviated names are used (with a disclaimer in the lead regarding full name) and instances where long names are used and "simply known as" disclaimers are used in the lead. --Another Believer _(Talk) 19:54, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Also, some sources have a comma in the album's full title. Would this make a difference? --Another Believer _(Talk) 20:03, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Correct If it could be moved to the full title, it should be. And if the album title has a comma in it (and that styling doesn't otherwise violate WP:MOS) then it should be included. Note that official names don't always trump our styling guidelines (e.g. MOS:TM.) —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:18, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I am not trying to resist too much here, especially knowing how experienced you are as an editor. My greatest concern was following the 'common name' naming convention but perhaps that is not applicable. I still can't imagine people referring to the album by it's full name or displaying the full title in infoboxes, navigation boxes, discographies, etc. on Wikipedia and elsewhere. Also, IF the article is to be moved I wonder if we should wait until we know if punctuation exists in the title or not? I suppose the article could always be moved again. --Another Believer _(Talk) 22:43, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Note/Update: I went ahead and moved "The Idler Wheel" to "The Idler Wheel..." -- regardless of the result of this discussion, the ellipsis is appropriate as it designates the use of abbreviation. --Another Believer _(Talk) 22:55, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Sure Of course, for practical purposes, the name would have to be abbreviated in sentences, but again, I'm not familiar with any album articles that have titles other than the actual title of the album itself (barring misspellings like "$" for "S") except in cases of technical restriction (e.g. Project Mersh or When the Pawn....) —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:39, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Also For what it's worth, I'm hardly right simply because I've edited a lot. That might be reason to think that I know what I'm talking about, but I frequently don't. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:44, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Hah! I was thinking the some reasoning for myself. --Another Believer _(Talk) 03:35, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. We took the exclamation points off the Overkill albums, so we don't follow just any old name the artist announces. The title needs to be a name that people use to refer to the subject in real world writing. Amazon and allmusic shortened the name of Apple's 1999 album to When the Pawn.... Here is the New York Times: "In 1999, she recorded the follow-up, 'When the Pawn . ..' -- the full title stretches to 90 words". Billboard calls it When the Pawn Hits the Conflicts He Thinks Like a King.... That's 11 words. No one will use a 23-word title. MSN has a headline, "Fiona Apple's new album title is an unbelievable mouthful", so there is already a backlash. Kauffner (talk) 03:59, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

• Response Typographical considerations are in line with the MOS like I mentioned above. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:05, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose the current title appears to be the common name. Per the naming conventions, we use the most commonly used name, which is not always the official name. This is not the place to suggest an exemption for album articles. If existing albums use non-common names, then we should look into filing other requested moves. Alpha_Quadrant (talk) 02:51, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Title short form

To reignite the above discussion, the title on the spine/edge of the album is "The Idler Wheel Is Wiser..." rather than just "The Idler Wheel..." Aspirex (talk) 07:56, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I’m also here to call bullshit on the common name. Wikipedia is not a print encyclopedia, and if The Beatles doesn’t live at The White Album, neither then should this live at The Idler Wheel.

FWIW I’d call the spine of a record a typographical restriction, too. —Wiki Wikardo $0.02 17:00, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

• This is the name that everyone use it. so we got to deal with it. it's not a big deal if one or two source called it "The Idler Wheel Is Wiser..." because the rest called it in its full title or "The Idler Wheel...". Reza ^(Let'sTalk) 17:15, 31 July 2012 (UTC)