Talk:The Lady, or the Tiger?

Edit

I fixed a few minor grammatical errors as well as some sentence structure. I also put in a few more internal citations. There needs to be some external citations added to this article Elizabethlsu (talk) 03:28, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Old talk

Is there a reason that the article links to itself? (the discourager of hesitancy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.249.197.121 (talk) 01:40, 26 September 2007 (UTC) I expanded the article to better explain the background and subsequent problem faced by the princess in the story, but it could still use some editing. Cvaneg 20:21, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

nice story. I think the lady kills the dragon.

this story is a cliffhanger! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.60.241.217 (talk) 10:44, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

i think the suitor chose the tiger <3 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.60.241.217 (talk) 11:04, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Date

It is sourced as 1882, but states it was written in 1884. 76.15.60.107 (talk) 00:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Now corrected. 1882 is the date that it first appeared. It was in a magazine. 1884 is the first time it appeared in book form in a collection. Somebody has, obviously, been unaware that the magazine appearance predated the book. 129.94.117.165 (talk) 00:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

The Tiger?

• The Princess loves the suitor but will lose him him either way; furthermore she is LIKE IDIOT AND MORE JEALOUS OF THE LADY having the suitor. Therefore she indicates the Tiger door.

No no, despite her jealousy, she'd rather the suitor lived...he loves her and she knows it, so his "wedding" will not be the end for them...and if the cad won't leave his new "wife" for her, she can always send him back to tango with the tiger. Therefore she indicates the Lady door.

(Today I feel optimistic about human nature.)

---Or, the suitor knew the Princess well enough to know that she'd know he'd know she'd lie out of jealousy, so he chose the door she indicated, and thus lived a happily married life until the Princess, pouting prettily, perfidiously paid a pauper to put poison in his new wife's punch.

(Whereupon the suitor cried a tear, buried his wife, and eloped with the Princess.)

I'm not sure what is going here, but isn't it enough to indicate that no one knows the ending? My language-arts teacher indicated that "The Discourager of Hesitancy" was written to tell all the people asking for who/what came from the door; the lady or the tiger. It was pretty much saying, "Shut up, shut up. I can put you all on the edge over and over and over, but you'll never get the answer from me as to which came out of the door." Danny Sepley (talk) 00:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The Lady is the obvious answer. One can always have an affair. And if there's another trial (for the affair), eh, give him the lady again.... until the princess is the lady up for grabs. Problem solved. No conundrum. 128.255.187.32 (talk) 09:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

IT IS A CLIFFHANGER STORY! HOHO PAULIT-ULIT? nice story pro kabitin lng. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.60.241.217 (talk) 11:01, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

The king clearly did not want them together. The princess is not an idiot; she knows that if she points to the lady, then the king will be watching them from now on. It is highly unlikely that the king would let the princess be anywhere near the suitor (likely he'd send the suitor and his wife out to the country). But then maybe the daughter poisons the king, being as fervent and semi-barbaric and strong-willed she is. So we shall never know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.231.36.167 (talk) 03:45, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Creative Writing Assignments

• Remember having to finish the story for freshman high school English class. My friend & I offered the scenario that there WAS a tiger behind the door,

but it was a LADY tiger, and the man and the tiger got married, and they lived happily ever after...until one day the tiger ate the man for leaving the toilet seat up! -65.122.209.163 08:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC) HAHAHAHA brilliant! --dan 01:06, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

No, it was the tiger all the way. It has said right from the beginning that she was semibarbaric. She'd loose to jealously and rather have him dead than with the girl that she hates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.121.41.135 (talk) 15:24, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Catch-22

I don't see how the princess' situation is a Catch-22 (as describided is the Catch-22 article) either I am misunderstanding something or the word have to be changed.ErnestC 15:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

If he gets the tiger and dies, the princess would want him alive. If he gets the lady and shags her, the pricess would want him dead. 217.125.117.197 (talk) 11:37, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I made the changeErnestC 10:24, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Either way, she loses her lover. MMetro (talk) 13:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

This was a logic trap story-you assume that she did send him to the tiger -since she would lose him either way..in fact I found a fictional essay that explains this at https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2841210/1/The-lady-or-the-Tiger-ENDING — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.49.142.38 (talk) 12:15, 21 March 2021 (UTC) On the other hand http://www.amazeingart.com/fun/lady-tiger-answer.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.49.142.38 (talk) 12:23, 21 March 2021 (UTC) In fact the sequel The discourager of Hesitancy GIVES THE ANSWEAR TO BOTH STORIES! See http://www.vardulon.com/2018/07/the-lady-or-tiger-has-been-solved.html#:~:text=The%20answer%20is%20that%20the%20Discourager%20of%20Hesitancy,require.%20So%2C%20who%20is%20the%20Discourager%20of%20Hesitancy%3F

If the king was stupid

Couldn't the princess be the Lady? That would make it an easy choice. But since the king selects the lady and he did not like the princess' mate I guess it would not happen. Still, I think it could be pointed out. But perhaps there is some subtleness that I did not get (English is not my main language) so that this was obviously impossible? (Like if a princess could not be called Lady) --84.55.112.254 19:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's because the story implied that the lady is already in the chamber at the same time that the princess is giving the guy the signal, so she couldn't (quite aside from social issues) also be the lady. --Gwern (contribs) 00:37 20 March 2007 (GMT)

When I was half way through the story, I thought the big twist was that the princess was the Lady.

-G

Again, I'm not sure; but I think that the princess hated the lady who was behind the door, as the original text indicated. She knew who it was, and that's why she was having a problem with deciding whether to let her lover live or kill him. Danny Sepley (talk) 00:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

It has been a while since I read the original text, but I believe that this is correct. The woman who was selected was, in fact, the princess' rival. It was thus not only jealously over her lover, but the idea of sending her lover into the arms of her rival. This creates two different jealous impulses and adds further depth to the story. 69.181.55.239 (talk) 06:09, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

And, then there is the thought that the young man might fear one and choose the other, opposite the door the princess indicated, which happened in a few conclusions when i was in 9th grade. Or, you could go with the princess hatching a plan to have the lady disguised with a veil as her, and then standing behind the door, llike a trick in a Hogan's Heroes episode. (A story which is now on fanfiction.net, I've seen.)209.244.187.155 (talk) 14:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Mark Twain

There is a Mark Twain story about a land ruled by a King who only has a daughter. The country can only be ruled by a man. The King's brother has a child who, as far as anyone knows, is a man, but is in fact a girl who has been raised as a man. She has been designated as the King's heir and will be married to the King's daughter at the time of the coronation. As the King lies dying, the niece sits on the royal throne, contemplating her becoming the next king, and her cousin, her prospective wife, comes into the throne room and makes a pass at her. When the heir(ess) rejects the girl, the King's daughter makes a fuss and claims that her cousin raped her. The only way to prove that the heiress did not rape her cousin, is to show that she's really a girl, but if she does that, then she will be killed, for having profaned the throne by sitting on it. Does anybody know the name of this story? Corvus cornix 21:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

It was an uncompleted story "A Medieval Romance" (begun in 1868) see https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Mark+Twain's+cross-dressing+oeuvre.-a020378695 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.49.142.38 (talk) 12:57, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

An easy way out

I think the solution is so obvious I must have failed to understand the problem: Why doesn't the princess ask her lover which option he would prefer? 87.91.121.5 (talk) 14:26, 27 January 2008 (UTC)Manon de Gaillande

This is not an option and is made clearer in the text. The lover is in the arena and the princess subtly indicates one of the two doors. It is made obvious that if she made any more overt gesture it would not be tolerated. Furthermore it is not relevant to the themes of the story. The idea that the princess has indicated to him to choose one of the doors is the set-up. The dilemma is whether he can trust her and an analysis of her motives for making each choice both of which are established as being informed by very strong feelings which will both result in the end of their relationship. Thus it is not only about her decision, but about trust and his ability to interpret and discern what her decision might have been.69.181.55.239 (talk) 06:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Moral Dilemmas

This classic tale presents the moral dilemma of the princess: she loses her lover with either choice; how she would choose, and how others would choose -- on what basis would choose -- continues to be an active area of study among serious researchers around the world. One such is Prof. Roberta Saxe in the department of neuro-biology at MIT. See: http://www.bostonreview.net/BR30.5/saxe.html Frankatca (talk) 15:50, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

It's really a study of how moraly developed the answer is more then a study of the question. And in what ways. And really: The easy answer is to understand that a shotgun wedding has no meaning... so... well... yeah. The lady followed by a nice affair. But even if that was impossible it's always the lady. After all, killing someone out of jealousy is, well, evil. If she would give the tiger she is not worthy of love, because she thinks of humans as possessions instead of as people. 128.255.187.32 (talk) 09:52, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

And, of how the man feels - there was one student who had the princess point to the door witht he lady in it, thent he man picked the other door and got eaten by the tiger, to show his love for the princess - he couldn't stand to have anyone but her.209.244.187.155 (talk) 14:19, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Other References

In the "Doom" book series that is based on the video game by the same name, there is a situation where the main characters, Fly and Arlene, have to choose between one of two different gates. At this point, Arlene brings up the question, "The lady or the tiger?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.27.47.68 (talk) 09:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

This was also referenced in the TV show Daria by Daria's friend Jane. I don't recall the episode exactly, but it may well have also intertwined with the plot. 99.181.134.21 (talk) 00:00, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

"A Beautiful Mind"

Isn't this story referenced in the above-mentioned movie? Frunobulax (talk) 20:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

The Discourager of Hesitancy

This article and the one at the author's page mention a sequel - "The Discourager of Hesitancy". Can we have some detail on this? Perhaps it doesn't require a separate article, but just to mention the sequel without any indicator of plot is annoyingly tantalising. Or, knowing what I now do about Stockton, is that the point...? Phyte (talk) 23:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's the text: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Discourager_of_Hesitancy Ashiyura (talk) 01:08, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

4/11/2024 Solution to the first story is found in the sequel The_Discourager_of_Hesitancy about a blindfolded prince who has to choose which lady married him...by reading the soltion to this story you get an answer to the orginal story see http://www.vardulon.com/2018/07/the-lady-or-tiger-has-been-solved.html

refuting the affair solution

Some of the answers above suggest that the princess would have him choose the lady, because she could have an affair with him later. But keep in mind the story was written in the Victorian era. From the original readers' point of view the marriage would be sacrosanct and a permanent loss of her lover. (Although Gilbert and Sullivan had a similar situation in the MIKADO: the Lord High Executioner lets his rival marry his girlfriend, because he can behead the rival) 76.122.75.89 (talk) 03:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, rose tinted glasses anyone? the victorians were just as shitty as people today. She would have had the affair. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.84.46 (talk) 23:55, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Major paradox

Fact 1: The king realizes that this man loves his daughter

Fact 2: The king knows his daughter loves this man

Fact 3: The king 'probably' thinks his daughter will tell the prisoner which door to choose

Fact 4: In light of #3, the king will swap the tiger and the woman

Fact 5: The princess realizes #4 will take place and thinks ahead...

Wait, based on this, Fact #5 is broken...

Yeah dude, PowerUserPCDude was here (yeah) (talk) 22:52, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

That problem (not really the problem discussed on the article) would be about who can out-think whom, and strategies could be mathematically modeled in Game theory, but it's not really a paradox... AnonMoos (talk) 14:58, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

光頭

台科大 不分系 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.204.39.135 (talk) 02:41, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

An additional aspect of the story

While the obvious purpose of the story is not to come up with a solution but to ponder human nature, I believe the story also has something to teach about the mistakes people make. Very often times we find ourselves in real-life situations where none of the available options seem to lead to desirable outcomes. Whatever decision you make, you will lose. The REALLY important question to ask yourself in these situations is not "What decision do I make now?", but rather, "What decision(s) did I previously make that led to me getting into this situation in the first place?"

What the man should be thinking about is not which door to pick, but about how, if he lives, he will no longer make the mistake of making the king mad for any reason.

A similar example would be if you have two siblings that you love equally who are rock climbing with you and a piece of equipment breaks, forcing you to choose which one of them to save while letting the other plunge to their death. There is no correct answer to the current problem with the information given. Just pick one to save and remember to not buy crappy climbing equipment next time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.184.103.35 (talk) 19:58, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Would someone kindly let me know if this looks right?

I just wanted to make sure I did this correctly--I noticed in the section on "other works" there was a link to a page in Wikipedia that didn't exist, on a second story by Stocktion called "The Discourager of Hesitancy." I found a copy of that story online and added a link to it, but deleted the Wikipedia link to the story as there was no page for it. I'm pretty sure that's OK to do, but my question is, should I create a new page on "The Discourager of Hesitancy" with the summary of the plot and other information on this genre of short short story? Thanks. (P.S. newby that I am, I'm not even sure this is where I should be asking this question, so please feel free to tell me! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nice1sam (talk • contribs) 23:27, 28 May 2015 (UTC) It was pointed out to me I didn't sign my talk entry before! Here it isNice1sam (talk) 05:08, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Citations needed

User:Jack_Sebastian, what exactly functions as a citation? Just a link to another site? What kind of site?

Sylvia Plath's sonnet is mentioned here: https://blackbird.vcu.edu/v5n2/poetry/plath_s/intro-ennui.htm The Simpsons episode has characters choosing between two doors, one has their friend and one has a tiger. Do either of these two count? https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/1860394 https://simpsonswiki.com/wiki/Kiss_Kiss_Bang_Bangalore/References

The They Might Be Giants song as well as the Young Justice episode are literally named after the story, and large parts of the song/episode quotes the story, how do you make a citation for that. I am not being flippant, I am actually not sure how to do this. It's like asking for a citation that a picture of a brown eyed person is of a brown eyed person. I don't know how to provide evidence for something that's so plainly there.

I understand the necessity of sourcing in Wikipedia, I'm new and just not smart enough to do it. Does this mean if there's an adaptation of this story, but nobody comments on it, it cannot be added to the list? All four examples are from fairly prominent places, so I would feel bad if they were removed because of lack of sourcing. Sorry if I said anything wrong.

2A00:EE2:907:FF00:ADC8:4AFB:2666:FAA6 (talk) 00:17, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi, user. I am happy to explain my reasoning for tagging the Sylvia Plath bit in the article as needing referencing. The statement,

Plath's sonnet, however, speaks of an age when the choice has become no longer relevant

is an evaluative statement, and without a reliable source its the editor's evaluative statement - and we as editors do not to make those evaluations. We are in fact prohibited from doing so.

The way forward is to find a source who, in reference to both Stockton's story and PLath's poem, make that precise evaluation. If you cannot find such, then the statement (ie. your opinion) cannot be used. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but everything - with very few exceptions - that within Wikipedia must be referenced to what the community agrees is a Reliable Source. It might be obvious to us, but if there isn't a source that says it, we can't include it.

With that understanding of how everything must be sourced and we cannot be the source, the TMBG and the YJ statements may be 'literally named after the story' in your mind, but you need proof that someone that is a RS also said it. If - in a music article about the TMBG song, an article notes it, add it as a citation (and if you need help knowing how to do that, I'd be happy to help you learn). The same goes for the YJ episode; you need a source explicitly tying the episode to the Stockton story - the key word there is 'explicitly.' If it isn't stated clearly in the source, you still cannot use it.

That may seem overly strict, but it keeps the article stable enough to grow from a stub to an ordinary article through GA and finally FA status. This is what every article on Wikipedia should strive to be. If we can't find a source that notes what we think is plainly obvious, we just have to trust that, at some point down the road, someone reliable will, and we can fix it then. There is no hurry.

And you asked a good question; nothing to be sorry for. Cheers.- Jack Sebastian (talk) 09:00, 30 November 2021 (UTC)