Talk:The Lord of the Rings/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Ovinus Real (talk · contribs) 21:29, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

This is my first GA review, so some supervision may be required, but I'd love to see this article become a GA. If you think this is a poor first choice, let me know and I will choose a different article to review. Unless told otherwise, I will take a look at it over the next few days. Cheers, Ovinus (talk) 21:29, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks for taking this on. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:32, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I ran the copyvio detector; all the found violations were spurious. Ovinus (talk) 06:28, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Noted.

Immediate failure criteria

1. Approved My cursory look at the article found nothing that would take a massive amount of work to correct.
2. Approved No copyvios.
3. Approved No cleanup tags.
4. Approved No edit warring.
5. Not applicable.

Looks good so far. Ovinus (talk) 03:26, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Assessment

Criterion 1: My comments

a. (prose, spelling, and grammar): Needs some work

b. (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): Needs some work

Lead

• Y I don't think the information after the semicolon is good to put in the first sentence; the fact that Tolkien didn't consider it a novel isn't a defining characteristic. You included it in section 3, so I think you can just remove it.

• Y I might provide a brief explanation of what "Middle-earth" is when you first use it. Something as simple as "Tolkien's fictional universe." That would make it clearer to the uninformed reader.

• Y "... initially intended by Tolkien to be one volume of a two-volume set, the other to be The Silmarillion, but this idea was dismissed by his publisher." I would set off "the other ... Silmarillion" in a parenthetical expression or surround it with dashes; makes it a bit easier to parse.

• Y "The Lord of the Rings has since been reprinted many times and translated into at least 56 languages." I think this sentence should be moved to the very end of the lead.

• Y "Although a major work ... effect on modern fantasy." This section of the lead paragraph probably belongs elsewhere, probably in section 2. Maybe the influences portion could remain, though, and the fact that the book's narratives are very old could be mentioned in passing in the previous paragraph.

Moved to Background.

Overall I feel like with these changes, the lead would be an excellent summary of the book.

Thank you.

Section 1: Plot summary

Y Overall, the summary is quite good and in-depth. I really appreciate the usage of citations to specific chapters in the book. I would rename the heading to "Plot" in line with most book articles. Obviously it's hard to introduce everything so that it's understandable to the average reader, but I would suggest at least briefly describing all mentioned characters and types of beings—places are less important. It might also be prudent to not give names for those characters and places only mentioned once.

• Prologue header should probably be removed given its short content

No, it's a separate component.

• Y "tells of their origins, migrating from the east" → "tells of their migration from the east" unless you meant to separate these, which would require a semicolon

• Y "of how the Shire where most of them live is organised" → "where most of them live" needs to be set off in commas, dashes or parentheses

• Y "Neither hobbit is aware of the Ring's nature" → Please provide a brief description of the ring's nature

• Y "but the suspicions of the wizard Gandalf the Grey are heightened" → The passive voice here makes it hard to parse imo, possibly confused that Bilbo/Frodo are suspecting Gandalf of something dastardly. Reword to "the wizard Gandalf the Grey has heightened suspicions" or something like that

• Y "They are pursued by mysterious Black Riders. They meet a passing group of..." I'd reword this a bit; two consecutive short sentences beginning with the same word.

• Y "Frodo, awakening, manages..." Clarify earlier in the sentence that Frodo is rendered unconscious by the barrow-wight. (iirc)

• "Frodo falls deathly ill from the wound." I would move this to the sentence in which Frodo is wounded; makes it clearer. If temporal accuracy is desired then you can say "he soon falls deathly ill" or something

Described Strider's interaction with Frodo in more detail.

• Y "Strider is revealed to be Aragorn, Isildur's heir." Isildur needs a brief intro, maybe just an explanation that he is an antagonist.

• Y "and is now working to become a power in his own right." Clarify

• Y "Gandalf was captured by Saruman and had to escape, which is why he did not reach Frodo in time." → "Gandalf was captured by Saruman and had to escape, leading to his failure to return to Frodo by Frodo's birthday as promised."

• Y "The Fellowship of the Ring is ... " make it clear this new term refers to the previous sentence. Also, I'd reword it to "... comprises nine walkers: ... " or something like that.

• Y Balin should have a brief introduction.

• Y "Galadriel. b" (I capitalized this for you)

• Y "Galadriel searches their hearts, and gives... " I would either explain what searching means in this context, or omit "searches their hearts, and" altogether.

• Y You refer to the Fellowship as "the Company"; probably should either consistently refer to it by one name. Also "the Company" is never explicitly defined

• Y Celeborn needs a brief intro.

• "Large Orcs, Uruk-hai" → "Large Orcs called Uruk-hai"

No, that doesn't work in the sentence.

• Y"Darkness took him," needs some explanation

• Y "Théoden's aid. Gandalf" → replace "Gandalf" with "He"

• Y "Pippin picks it up. Gandalf takes it, but Pippin steals it in the night." → combine these two sentences

• Y "Frodo and Sam struggle through the barren hills..." Provide a quick recap of what Frodo and Sam are doing

• Y "a secret way that Gollum knows" → Replace "way" with "pass"

• Y No spaces around em dashes (I fixed)

Thanks.

• Y "learns that Frodo is still alive" I'd use "realizes" in this context

• Y "might of Mordor. Sauron attacks with overwhelming force" combine

• Y "Ungol.[T 55] They set out" combine

• Y "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen tells how it came about that an immortal elf came to marry a man" → "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen tells how an immortal ... "

Clarified.

• "It is told, too, that Sam gives his daughter..." → "It is also told..."

We crusty old editors avoid "also" like the plague. 'too' seems to work exactly correctly here. Perhaps this is a British English thing: all Tolkien articles are in BE.

• Y "its 'Note on Shire Records'," use double quotes

• Y "Frame-story" doesn't need a hyphen

Section 2–6

• Y "So at the age of 45, Tolkien began ... Tolkien was 63 years old." I'm not sure why his age is relevant here? Also, I would replace So with Thus

• Y "Persuaded by his publishers, he started "a new Hobbit" in December 1937." Duplicates info from the previous section

Removed duplicate, leaving instance in 'Writing'.

• Y "Writing was slow, because" → "Writing was slow, partially because" it was also slow simply because he takes his time! :P

• The following quote should be set up somehow and given a date to attribute to, or put into an inline block (unlikely, since it's short)

Paraphrased.

• I would remove the Poetry heading, combining it with Writing, though that's at your discretion

Let's keep it; its subject is not the task of putting pen to paper, but a major component of the book.

• Y "incantations; of " → "incantations; and of"

• Y "Scholars have stated that the poetry is essential for the fiction to work aesthetically and thematically; it adds information not given in the prose; and it brings out characters and their backgrounds." Use commas instead of semicolons here

• Y "which Tolkien carried across into his prose" → "which is also reflected in Tolkien's prose"

• "archaeology especially at the Temple of Nodens" → "archaeology (especially at the Temple of Nodens)"

Let's avoid parentheses, thanks.

• "profession, philology" → "profession of philology"

The comma is certainly correct here.

• Y "Some writers were certainly important to him, including the Arts and Crafts polymath William Morris" the first part of this sentence is a bit confusing, since you already stated writers he found important. Maybe rephrase to "Other writers he found important included..."

• "Tolkien stated, too, that" → "Tolkien also stated that"

Again, "also" is worse; probably a Brit thing.

• Y "strong thread" → "common theme", I think thread is a bit too metaphorical

• Y "moralisation" define?

Reworded.

• Y "However these individual book titles were dropped, " → "These individual book titles were dropped, however, "

Added comma.

• Y "that year, and sold" → "that year, selling"

• " resulted, after some initial glitches, in a " → " resulted in, after some initial glitches, a "

No, that's far worse.

• Y "seemed to have an idea of how popular the books would become" → "seemingly predicted the books' future popularity"

• Y "Even within Tolkien's" → "Within Tolkien's"

• "Later" section should probably be renamed "Later reviews"

We're inside the 'Reception' section, so it's not necessary.

• "remained so" → "remained popular"

We have 'popular' later in the sentence... let's leave it.

• Y "(1978), by animator" remove comma

Rearranged.

• The first two paragraphs in Film can be combined

I think Jackson deserves a paragraph here; his work certainly stands head and shoulders above the others mentioned.

• Y The last sentence of the TV section should be reworded and the source stated in the text

Cut.

• Y "The Lord of the Rings was first" needs a comma after "Rings"

• Y "1960s, and" remove comma

• Dungeons & Dragons should have the acronym for it as well

No, the name is sufficient.

• Y In the last pair of sentences of the article, I might include some more info on the book's popularity outside of the UK (like similar rankings to the BBC's)

Article mentions Germany, France, and Australia (and Amazon.com) for popularity also. Probably enough.

Also, the section "Posthumous publication of drafts" should probably be merged somewhere, as well as "Stage". Finally, the section "Frame story" should probably be put with the "Concept and creation" section, perhaps in "Writing".

Posthumous: it's probably optimally placed: there isn't anywhere better to put it than under 'Publication history'.

Stage: is correctly placed under 'Adaptations'.

Frame story: as it says, this spans 'Prologue' and 'Appendices', so again there's no better place to put it.

Overall, the article definitely needs some improvement to the prose. Since most of these are simple tasks, feel free to just put a checkmark after/before them when you do them and only put comments underneath them if you disagree/want clarification. Cheers, Ovinus (talk) 06:07, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

All done.

Criterion 2: My comments

• Y "Delays in producing appendices, maps and especially an index..." I think this needs a source. I've put a [citation needed] tag in

• Y "These include verse and songs of many genres: for wandering, marching to war, drinking, and having a bath; narrating ancient myths, riddles, prophecies, and magical incantations; of praise and lament (elegy)." same thing

That's about it. Ovinus (talk) 06:10, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks for the review, which you have taken very seriously and carefully. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:22, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Criterion 3

Y I think the article is pretty broad. However, I think a more in-depth analysis of the book's themes would be appropriate. Maybe another paragraph or two about the deeper meanings of the book would be good. Ovinus (talk) 06:15, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Note that there's a 'main' link in 'Themes' to a whole article on the subject, which I've tried to summarize here. I've extended the section with a bit more from that article.

Criterion 4, 5

No problems here. Ovinus (talk) 06:17, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Noted.

Criterion 6

The three illustrations are well chosen. However, I would add at least one image to the plot (maybe an artist's depiction of the ring?). Also a picture of the cover of one of the U.S. versions might be appropriate, since those were very popular. Ovinus (talk) 06:17, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks. I've added a Ring image to the plot. The use of a US cover is perhaps possible but we can only do that under "fair usage" as the covers are in copyright; it's difficult to get such a thing accepted as one cover is usually considered sufficient, so we'd need a strong reason to illustrate it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:32, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Pass

You've responded to all my comments, and overnight for me here in the U.S., which is just extra convenient, haha. I shall pass the nomination accordingly. Kudos for your hard work; this was a pleasure. Cheers, Ovinus (talk) 16:55, 31 August 2020 (UTC)