Talk:The Master Musicians of Joujouka/Archive 1

Shouldn't both spellings be shown in wikipedia's search engine? It's very strange to see the title spelled one way (Joujouka) and the text spelled "Jajouka." Consistency would be nice. Bebop 07:53, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

for the record, when I wrote the above casual question many moons ago, I did not mean there should be only one article. I meant that the article I was looking at that day was titled with one spelling and using a different spelling in the same article's article text, and I was thoroughly confused about the subject because no one had explained there were two different bands being discussed in the same article. I'm shocked that no administrator who understood there were two bands was responsible enough to routinely disambiguate this over a period of more than a year that's passed. Evidently no one involved in editing it knew how to do that. All were new users unused to Wikipedia, I guess, including one band's manager. Clearly, two articles with two spellings are called for without question just like with any other similar article situation. Master Musicians of Jajouka should be one article and Master Musicians of Joujouka, the latter of which made two albums, should be the other. Sorry that I didn't check on this sooner. I'm swamped with other work. Bebop 14:55, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

They have in fact been involved in several albums see below post User:Opiumjones 23 18:43, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Various pronounciations - yes for consistency...

This is the 1st time I see Joujouka. It appears that this could be a japaneese psychedelic band Joujouka, not the Master Musicians of Jajouka. However, as explained further down, Joujouka (French style), or Jujuka (English style), are arguably correct transcriptions of actual pronounciations.

• I have moved the information about the Japanese band to its own article, Joujouka (Japanese band). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:53, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, there are many possible options, that would each be consistent with traditional pronouciations and translation contingencies...

Such as:

• Jajuka (U is a more direct translation than OU, which invoques an arguably useless French translation step - OU is a French equivalent to Engl. U)
• Djadjuka (DJ is very used in Northern-North-Eastern Morocco, instead of J)
• Jahjuka (a pronounced H is used, as a personal option by locals of Jajouka, it just depends who is talking, when, etc.)
• and yes Joujouka (/Jujuka - Engl.), can arguably transcribe an A in jAjouka that would be pronounce very short, so much that it could be transcribed as U or OU1

Then obviousy, a number of combinations are possible. Djadjouka - Jahjouka - Djoudjouka - Djudjuka - Djahdjuka - etc.

• So yes I strongly recommend using one version consistently, and why not the one the band uses on their disks and on their official web site: Jajouka at www.jajouka.com

While it seems impossible to encompass for all possible transcriptions to match all possible keywords in the search engines system. It can be useful to at least evoque some facts, for example that:

• in English U is a more direct transcriptions, such as Jajuka
• a pronounced H is possible such as in Jahjuka
• DJ is an acceptable pronounciation in Northern-North-Eastern Morocco such as in Djadjuka
• the 1st A can be pronounced really short, so short that it can read U, such as in Jujuka

Listing these previous 4 options, just once, would give a hint to visitors about possible pronounciations, short of responding to all possible keyworded searches on Google.

As you can see, I've tried to tackle that one already at my Unofficial Master Musicians of Jajouka, probably in vain I must suspect, but at least it feels educational a bit.

Why Joujouka (versus Jajouka): Leadership Crisis

Microsoft's Encarta atlas on CD Rom is the only map where I have ever seen the village of Jajouka (spelled JAJOUKA, not JOUJOUKA) anywhere. Other maps now also exist which spell it as Jajouka. Consistency and accuracy are important in this matter, and I suggest JAJOUKA and not confusing redirection on Wikipedia to Joujouka or (The) Master Musicians of Joujouka. There is only one official site, led by Bachir Attar. As for the spelling of the name, Bashir Attar, it is spelled Bachir attar. This needs to be corrected everywhere it occurs. Paul Bowles had nothing to do with the Master Musicians of Joujouka. It was Jajouka. Mick Jagger had nothing to do or say about Rynne's group, Master Musicians of Joujouka. He was referring in his quote to The Master Musicians of Jajouka, with Bachir Attar, whom he recording with in Tangier in 1989 for the song "Continental Drift" on the Steel Wheels album of The Rolling Stones. The Hamri information is NOT correct.

SEE ABOVE FOR CLARIFICATION OF SPELLING AND OTHER FACTS.

I agree that the double spelling leads to confusion. Jajouka or Joujouka.

It appears that a split has occured in the band. If I understand correctly Bashir Attar, was also conducting a solo career, and claimed the leadership of the band,

However, the Musicians followed the late Mohamed Hamri who brought the musicians to world attention, under the banner of Joujouka. One would think that the band is really where the tradition lies, where the legitimacy of choosing a leader lies, etc. the band still performs the private sessions, still raises new musicians, and still plays within the cultural context. While Bashir's loyalty seems at the very least split between his solo career and the band. The expression 'the Master Musicians of Joujouka' is descriptive of the fact that these musicians are considered masters of their craft, and healers gifted with healing and spiritual power (baraka), which they are documented to dispense at least througfh Therapeutic Touch , and they are the music fraternity of the village jajouka, the one fraternity who lives together seqrested from women and dedicated to the music. Since the village is identified by the word 'Joujouka' in international reference resources, if they are the musicians, they are entitled to the full expression unchanged, without to do any detour for legal reasons. They could say: - we are the 'Master Musicians of jajouka, with Mohamed Hamri' in contrast with: - 'the Master Musicians of Jajouka, featuring Bashir Attar' as the shingle of the original web site says.

In terms of Internet access, it would be a lot better, because everyone would stick to the one keyword that is referenced everywhere, in maps, encyclopedia, history articles, etc., and... the Web.

The 'Master Musicians of Joujouka' mean exactly 'the master musicians of the village Joujouka'.

Now ackwardly enough the band in its almost entirety responds to a different name than the one cristalizing their centuries old tradition. That name used by Bashir Attar, is not JOUJOUKa which seems to refer to the title of the original Bian Jones presents the Pipes of Pan at Joujouka the spelling and name in the original writing by Brion Gysin, William Burroughs, Timothy Leary, Stanley Booth and Robert Palmer..Bachir dares not use this name as he has no right to trade on it so he invented Jajouka, official Master Musicians of Joujouka (Unofficial) Master Musicians of jajouka added on: 3/31/05

Sources, references and POV problems

To [[User:Opiumjones 23].

This article should should settle down an bit. Reverting wars are not the solution. Please refer to the guidelines:

• Wikipedia:Citing sources

This rift seems to have lasted for some time: In an article published in The Wire in 1996, guitarist Lee Ranaldo wrote, "It seems there are currently two groups of musicians claiming to be the 'real' Master Musicians OF Jajouka/Joujouka (they're even arguing over the spelling). One group, the 'Jajouka' faction, is led by Bachir Attar, whose father was the leader of the group in the 60s when Brian Jones and Ornette Coleman made their visits (it is this group I have written about here, and for reasons of pragmatism, I have used the 'Jajouka' spelling throughout). The 'Joujouka' faction is in the care of Mohammed Hamri, who has been involved with the village since the 50s and 60s, and who had a hand in bringing Brion Gysin and Paul Bowles there."[1]

===Against===

The group's unique tradition is on the verge of extinction: modern life is changing Jajouka, and it is increasingly difficult to find young men to carry on the tradition.

• Wikipedia:NPOV

In Tangier, Gysin and Hamri founded the 1001 Nights restaurant, in which the musicians played for four years during the early 1950s to a largely Western audience in what was then an international zone, the "Interzone" of William S. Burroughs' fiction.

====Against====

In Tangier, Brion Gysin founded the 1001 Nights restaurant, located adjacent to the Menhebi palace on the Marshan, in which Jajouka musicians played for four years during the early 1950s to a largely Western audience when the city of Tangier was an International Zone.

The group's unique tradition is on the verge of extinction: modern life is changing Jajouka, and it is increasingly difficult to find young men to carry on the tradition.

• Wikipedia:Verifiability

Joujouka w/o Bachir against Jajouka with Bachir Attar. Cheers -- Szvest 22:54, 17 May 2006 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up™}

Page move

Hi guys. I've been reading an article about MMJ at Telquel magazine and verified the following:

• Name: The real name is "The master musicians of Jajouka" instead of "Master musicians of Joujouka".
• The music of Jajouka is exclusively related to the Attar family since medieval times when the masters used to play in royal (sultans') courts.

I'll move the page to the new title but keep the redirects. -- Szvest 18:53, 2 July 2006 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up™}

MSN's ENCARTA WORLD ATLAS SHOWS THE SPELLING TO BE JAJOUKA (the only map I've ever seen with the tiny village listed, including Moroccan maps): http://ca.encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/mapcenter/map.aspx?TextLatitude=62.833&TextLongitude=-95.914&TextAltitude=0&TextSelectedEntity=39070&SearchEnc=false&MapStyle=Comprehensive&MapSize=Medium&MapStyleSelectedIndex=0&searchTextMap=Jajouka&MapStylesList=Comprehensive&ZoomOnMapClickCheck=on

I won't move it back yet, but I disagree. The Wikistandard is to use ordinary English rules of capitalization and to not use the article (e.g. "the") in titles, except under extremely exceptional circumstances. I don't see anything in the link you provided that indicates the name is officially non-standard, and the official homepage uses "Master Musicians of Joujouka". (note that the official name is not necessarily the appropriate title of the wiki article, but since the name on the official website is wikistandard, I see no reason not to use it) Tuf-Kat 19:29, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Who or what is Miles?

Who or what is Miles in the image description? TimBentley (talk) 04:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

It is Barry Miles. I forgot to disambig. Thanks for the note. -- Szvest 11:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up ®}</small

The cover photo on this album is by Joel Rubiner and the record has nothing to do with the "Joujouka" group led by Frank Rynne and Hamri is dead. Hamri was fired after having stolen the money from this record in 1972. This "Joujouka" group led by Frank Rynne associates itself with this record. Please note that the title says "Jajouka" and is the music of Bachir Attar's father and is therefore from The Master Musicians of Jajouka led by Bachir Attar. Cherie Nutting, Manager, Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar (See the site: www.jajouka.com)

joujouka

If the Joujouka of Hamri had nothing to do with the record then why did Hamri get the money he is alleged to have stolen? The above is part of an on going effort to discredit the group of musicians who still live in Joujouka and are led by Ahmed Attar, a first cousin of Bachir Attar.

There are two groups trading on the reputation of Joujouka. both are represented in the links however I suggest a page be set up for Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar as they have a very different history to the folk group in Joujouka.

The earliest spelling used in the West was Joujouka. Burroughs, Timothy Leary, Brian Jones etc. The fact that Bachir Attar choose in the late 80s to use Jajouka was to do with copyright and the fact that another group in the village was already using the name.

Unprotecting this page will lead to all info on Joujouka and Mohamed Hamri, links to joujouka.net etc being deleted by propagandists and people with commercial interests to the detriment of accurcy. opiumjones 23 19:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I represent Bachir Attar and The Master Musicians of JAJOUKA. I have been with the group for 20 years. I am unable to log in to the Wikepedia pages about our group because an Irishman who calls himself "Opium Jones" has somehow had the page blocked so that true information about The Master Musicians of Jajouka cannot be added or edited.Redirections with the groups' name are a big mistake because all of our groups' information seems to be linked to this group led by this Irishman. Hamri was the guide who brought Brion Gysin to Jajouka and Brion later brought Brian Jones.However it was Paul Bpwles and Brion Gysin who first came across the music on their own.Hamri was not raised in Jajouka but his mother was born there and left the village when she married someone from another town.For this reason Hamri never learned to be a musician.As a guide and boyfriend of Gysin he took him to the village and since he spoke English he was used as an interpreter and manager when "The Pipes of Pan at Joujouka" was recorded by Brian Jones. Somehow he played no instrument but insisted that he was composer of the peices on The Pipes of Pan.Bachir Attar's father was leader at the time and when he died in 1982 Bachir inherited the role as head of the group. A letter to me from William Burroughs states that "Hamri is an imposter and that the Irishman is misguided" and that "Bachir Attar is the true leader of the mantle of Jajouka"(1994) In 1972 Hamri was fired for theft. He also managed to get the advance for Joel Rubiner's The Master Musicians of Jajouka album (Adelphi records}and we have proof to back this up. Since that record was spelled "Jajouka" in 1972 Bachir decided to keep the spelling as "Jajouka" and not "Joujouka" so as not to confuse the public. The Irishman seems to forget this spelling when he tries to add this album from 1972 to his discography. The actual spelling on the old Identity cards from years age spell the name "Jahjouka" which is closer to the real "Jajouka"pronounciation.Bachir Attar has stayed with the spelling "Jajouka" to simplify. "Jahjouka" "Joujouka""Jajouka"... We had no trouble from Hamri and the Irishmen until Bachir and I brought Mick Jagger and The Rollingstones to the village and later Bill Laswell.Since our successes we have been constantly Harrassed by these Irish promoters who continue to use our resume.

According to law I am told by our lawyer that it is illegal to use a similar name in order to cause confusion . This is what "opium Jones" and his friends have done.

By the way, Bachir Attar lives in Jajouka with his Musicians and he is recognised by The Kingdom of Morocco as the true and official Master Musicians of Jajouka.

FYI: Brion Gysin broke his connection to Hamri long before his demise, as did Paul Bowles.

Sub Rosa records came to us first but we chose a label that could pay a fee. Bill Laswell came along and we worked with him instead. Note also that the Sub Rosa recordings with the Irishmans group cannot hold the notes{Circular breathing)

Cherie Nutting

Manager of Bachir Attar and The Master Musicians of Jajouka

I think she means re: "holding the notes" that people can hear the flute player pause for a breath on some songs on the Sub Rosa recordings instead of holding the note through the song, but that is opinion, which has to be referenced with citations to be used in an article. As for Nutting not being able to get into the article to edit it, if one manager can't, then neither manager (Nutting or Rynne) should re: wikipedia guidelines that the admins have slept through. Emerman 00:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

What Mohamed Hamri had to say about this issue in 1995

http://joeambrose.net/japdf/HamrisOpenLetter.pdf User:Opiumjones 23 19:52, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

• The above citation posting by Master Musicians of Joujouka producer Frank Rynne is from the personal website of Frank Rynne's collaborator on Sub Rosa records, Joe Ambrose. See guidelines on NPOV, Self-published Sources and Wikipedia:No original research.

Emerman 15:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Chris Campion The Wire article

Campion uses Joujouka spelling throughout. The article refered to above is by Lee Renaldo see the introduction for his acknowlement of the fact that two groups existed. Therefore reverted. User:Opiumjones 23 21:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

• A quick look at Chris Campion's credits show that he has been employed by Master Musicians of Joujouka and Sub Rosa on their 1994 compilation, Moroccan Trance Music, Vol. 2 : Sufi. His writings are slanted toward the people who employed him and if The Wire did not get told by him that he worked for them when he wrote whatever article you refer to, that's unfortunate given the wikipedia guidelines on citing undisputed sources and NPOV. opium jones 23 is using as source reference the work of fellow occasional employees of and his co-collaborators on Sub Rosa recordings he made of his group he recorded on Sub Rosa. Also all articles referenced need to be put in the footnotes of the article for each fact put in the article for the fact check people, but they have to be sources that are considered reputable, NPOV, and not just your or your own friends' self-interested work when a dispute is involved of this nature. See rules on NPOV, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research, and Wikipedia:Citing sources. Your co-collaborator's comments about spelling in this case are not appropriate to rely on for reverting edits. Emerman 14:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Joujouka Vs Jajouka

Following this discussion at my talk page, i'd like to hear your concerns in detail in order to sort out this issue for once. Please discuss. -- Szvest - ^{Wiki me up ®} 18:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

This article needs help badly

The official spelling on the albums by the official group is "Master Musicians of Jajouka". See the discography at www.jajouka.com. Please spell it right. The "joujouka" spelling is only used today by a band with a total of two albums out managed by an Irishman, not the real group.

In rereading the History file, I found that some of what I previously started to say while outraged reading the article moments ago was already said in the past, such as info about Hamri's firing in the early 1970s.

I am disturbed by what I see on this talk page and hope that someone will properly research the article and prevent confusion between Bachir Attar's group of Master Musicians of Jajouka and that of a group on Sub Rosa that made a total of two albums using a similar name. I think the article needs a lot of revision and should be marked as having its information contested.

Emerman 03:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The main reason I wrote the above is that the TODAY section of the article mixes two groups together so that everyone thinks the Sub Rosa group's last cd represents both groups. Also there is a lack of acknowledgment of the fact Bachir Attar's group also lives in the village and an implication that only the Sub Rosa group does, so I found it to be very confusing and my opinion became worse when I saw this page after looking at the article. I've seen articles that had fewer problems than this one tagged at the top of either the article or article talk page as contested but no one seems to do any standard administrative tasks on this article. Disambiguation would help though since there are two bands and two spellings unless people just cannot figure out how to do it. Emerman 20:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Libels ?

The above needs a little reading but seem to defame the dead and slander and libel the living. Svest if you think it should be commented on here email me. User:Opiumjones 23 03:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC) ] 03:16, 13 January 2007 (UTC) 03:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC) 03:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm still in the middle of editing and writing what I wrote and you've already commented before I finished? Gosh, I wonder who this might be, but someone interested in this to the point of watching the talk page every second for changes and not signing with his log in (update: he added his signature later). I will be editing it down shortly because it's too long. As for slander and libel, this discussion on Hamri's firing was already mentioned in a previous message I read in the article history without anyone crying out "libel". I would like to see some good print articles disambiguate the two bands' differences and particularly the clear fact that the main band spells it Jajouka regardless of what a cousin tried to say in a separate band. There are many cousins in that village because half the village is related but not every cousin is a direct descendant of the leader from the band in Pipes of Pan at Jajouka nor has been accepted by Burroughs, Bowles, Palmer etc. as the accepted leader.

Emerman 03:09, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

its an encyclopaedia  !!!!User:Opiumjones 23 03:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's right, Opiumjones 23, it's an encyclopedia, meaning you are supposed to be citing from print sources for each statement made in the article, which is why I mentioned print articles. And I'm trying to correct my TALK PAGE comments and you keep writing the second I make a comment here so that I can't have time to edit my rough draft because you're so beamed in on this page that you watch every moment it changes. Please allow me to finish posting. And please consult the Wikipedia Guidelines on Conflict of Interest that you routinely seem to violate in some of your submissions in the actual article, though perhaps some of this is due to your unfamiliarity with all the Wikipedia guidelines, which can be hard for people to keep up with. This article is confusing people all over the world and needs to be disambiguated so that people stop mixing up the two groups. The better known band is clearly the one on the major label, the Bachir Attar-led "Master Musicians of Jajouka", not the minor label group on Sub Rosa ("Master Musicians of Joujouka") - someone needs to disambiguate because people who get the two mixed up due to Wikipedia's inept handling of this are now including librarians, journalists, and record store staff researching albums and this is a problem massively damaging to the career of the better known group whose reputation is being piggybacked on by the minor label act.

Emerman 03:34, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Article split/Disambiguation

Opiumjones 23's message to BKLisenbee and Emerman's comment above show that all parties agree about a split. So are you ready guys? Both bands exist and a split will make sense. I'll deal with the technical aspect after you confirm your agreement here. -- Szvest - ^{Wiki me up ®} 13:34, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that wise and agree User:Opiumjones 23 15:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

See allmusic.com for the way to disambiguate: Master Musicians of Joujouka and Master Musicians of Jajouka. The allmusic.com discography accidentally had a typo on one album name but is generally displaying the industry understanding about the two groups and its typo will be fixed eventually. "Master Musicians of Jajouka" is the name on the major label Pipes of Pan at Jajouka cd rerelease as well. The "Jajouka" spelling article should mention that the group of Master Musicians of the Jajouka village using this spelling include major label recordings under names "Master Musicians of Jajouka" and "Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar". The "joujouka" spelling article should probably mention the past controversy the "Master Musicians of Joujouka" producers tried to create shown above in a PDF shown higher up the page contributed by Master Musicians of Joujouka manager/producer Frank Rynne/"opium jones 23". However, it is doubtful Rynne or the major label Master Musicians of Jajouka group's manager, whose name (Cherie Nutting) I found on a related myspace page for the major label group, should be editing either article given the guidelines here and because of Rynne's self interests in subsuming the "master musicians of jajouka/joujouka" name & antagonism toward the major label group as shown in the .PDF link of an article related to himself that Rynne posted on this page attempting to discredit the major label act. Why are you waiting for a poll? If you are, then you are going to have to wait for BK Lisenbee and others above to log in since I do not represent that person or the "other parties" on this page. I never laid eyes on the article till yesterday. I have not participated in editing this or even edited any article in a month or more because I got tired of editing after dealing with writing about an unrelated American rock music artist in the past. But when I read the article and above talk page, I saw references to a .PDF by two producers for Master Musicians of Joujouka and former manager Hamri, whose firing I have previously read about in Jajouka Rolling Stone, so I was pretty taken aback last night with discovering this talk page and the mixing up of two bands in the same article. Rather than calling for a poll, some less timid administrator who has researched this, aside from lobbying by the minor label group's manager, should have acted as a normal administrator does and taken care of it the first day you were aware of the problem of two bands being mixed up together, and I would have done it myself if I'd had more than one evening to take all this in. The article name should be Master Musicians of Jajouka for discussion on the major label group and Master Musicians of Joujouka for the one on Sub Rosa. The article called Master Musicians of Jajouka should list in its discography everything except the two Sub Rosa works, which belong in the listing for Master Musicians of Joujouka, similar to how allmusic.com handled it. Emerman 16:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I started to suggest a split into three names but just realized that would require putting the history of the original band in two separate entries. The allmusic.com way is therefore simplest, where the main history for the major label groups, old generation and new, are both in the Master Musicians of Jajouka spelling entry. The entry for the "master musicians of joujouka" band on Sub Rosa can allude to their band name's derivation being in honor of the original vinyl album cover name for the Brian Jones album from 1971 which was later rereleased on cd with the "jajouka" spelling of the major label band led by the son of the original group's leader. Emerman 17:53, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

All this is defamation and rubbish historically inaccuerate. It is noteworthy that these references to "Major "label and info on posts that indicate that Emerman is in fact a VERY interested party. See earlier versions of her posts above which are emotional and libelous and factually incorrect. The group that live and work in Joujouka have played on many albuums including ones by the group called Jakouka featuring Bachir Attar and the Steel Wheels record eg Moktar Jagdhall who drums on Joujouka Black Eyes by MMOJoujouka plus Rolling Stones Steel Wheels, or eg the deceased Mujehid Mujdoui who played on eg Brian Jones presents the Pipes of Pan at Joujouka (Rolling stones record 1971); Master Musicians of Jajouka 1972, Joujouka Black Eyes by MMOJoujouka 1995, Sufi by MMoJoujouka 1996, 10% file under Burroughs various 1996, Boujeloud, MMOJoujouka , 2006. plus at least four others from early 60s and recordings by Brion Gysin released as 1001 nights.

Furthermore as well as being an interested party the above user wants Kenneth Lissenbee to anwser this. Well re POV Kenneth is a friend and supporter of Cherie Nutting and Bachir. They have apartments in the same block in Tangier and both Nutting and Lissenbee are involved in Paul Bowles estate. The next concert by Bachir Attar is being organised in conjuction with Paulbowles.org which Kenneth administrates is the webmaster of and runs. If you look you will note the refs to Attar bachir and Nuttings photos and interviews throughout. I would advice a close look at their editing re Paul Bowles as they have serious POV issue there. IE There is no mention of serious accusations made in the Moroccan press by Mohamed Choukri about Bowles treatment of Moroccan artists and boys; or any of the homosexual aspects of Bowles life. The issue that arose between Hamri and Bowles that manifested in the support Bowles gave Bachir Attar in the early ninties in fact goes back to the fifties when Bowles employed the teenage Hamri to work in his house. The Joujouka name has been in existence since the first time it was used in English in the fifties. Split split User:Opiumjones 23 18:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC)opiumjones 23 18:32, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

This links to a Popmatters recent article. Esential reading for any commentators.

User:Opiumjones 23 19:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC) http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:-LOc_Wy9aGIJ:www.popmatters.com/pm/music/reviews/6873/the-master-musicians-of-joujouka-boujeloud/+boujeloud+joujouka&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=5&client=firefox-a

As I had assumed was obvious, the only reason I mentioned wikipedia user BK Lisenbee is that the administrator who began this "poll" instead of doing his disambiguation work the routine way most admins handle things mentioned above that all parties should assent and the admin specifically referenced a note from you to BK Lisenbee and also a comment from me. That is why I suggested user BKLisenbee therefore is supposed to be part of the poll as well as everyone else if this "poll" is supposed to be done; it has nothing to do with what I *want*. As to what I "want", I would prefer that the disambiguation were done now, not waiting for wikipedia user BK Lisenbee at all. I in fact said so above and said that a less timid admin would have already disambiguated this item. I don't know BK LIsenbee and I have never spoken with that user prior to sending a notice today to his or her talk page to see the poll here that the admin SZVEST started which referenced Lisenbee, and I specifically mentioned that user because I got the impression SZVEST confused me with him or her when he said all interested parties agreed and cited Rynne's "response to BKLISENBEE" and also my comment as though that's all the "parties". That's only two parties, not everyone on this page.

I notice that Emerman is assuming that my actions have been somehow biased. An admin is a person who has access to technical features that help with maintenance, etc... Let me tell you that i am just here to organize your debates and discussions and whatever dicision you'd take i'd implement it. The case is not as easy and obvious as you'd think. I am waiting for your input so i can draw a better picture. Maybe you can start both editing on your sandbox so i'd be able to read attentively. I can't disambiguate this way as i am not sure about what should go there and what should remain here as i am not an expert. I've already left a note to User:TUF-KAT whom i believe is the most adequate person to help sort this out. -- Szvest - ^{Wiki me up ®} 14:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I did not say, imply, or think you were biased. I was concerned that the biases of the producer for the Master Musicians of Joujouka group on minor label Sub Rosa that you allowed to edit the article while locking it were not known to you due possibly to his not mentioning it since his band is benefitting from this redirect situation. These redirects send people who type in the spelling of a band that has recorded on sublabels of Polygram, Decca, Real World Records, Adelphi and more to an article on a Sub Rosa artist. If there were going to be one redirect, at wikipedia ordinarily the better known name would be who you redirect to, but in fact disambiguation is the proper way to handle it. I'll look at what you've said about making suggestions in my editing sandbox, thanks. I was just now looking for the .PDF that was posted here previously so I can notate that it is from a self-published source from the website of one of the employees/participants on one of Frank Rynne's albums on sub rosa, so why he posted that here I do not know since we have rules on self-published sources; I also pointed out above a minute ago that Chris Campion, a non-neutral source cited for a reversion, worked on one of Frank Rynne's Master Musicians of Joujouka band's albums, so of course he's going to spell the band name "joujouka". Thanks for looking into disambiguating and being aware that this band name situation is a serious matter and can't stay the way it is. Emerman 15:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of emotional and libelous and irrelevant comments, inexperienced wikipedia user and band producer "opium jones 23" also begins a tangent here about Bowles and homosexuality. The fact the "joujouka" name has been used before and Rynne latched on to the name once used in a single 1971 release is also irrelevant since that album was since renamed in accordance with the major label group's name due to the minor label group's arrival. See allmusic.com for disambiguation style and move on. (Update: Lisenbee has since explained in a message below he manages a different site entirely and is not in management for the Jajouka group, so I was mistaken in wondering about that from Rynne's implications previously before so I've edited this to not say "if Lisenbee is in the Jajouka group's management ..." as I previously had wondered.) Since Rynne is Sub Rosa group's producer and manager and Cherie Nutting manages the other group, neither should likely edit either article given the hostile interests involved. I'm not interested in editing it either because I do not have the time but other editors need to step up and take responsibility. Rynne doesn't evidently like my comments because the facts do not hold up to his interests and he tosses out the word libel because he is so often guilty of it himself, as his .PDF shown on this page displays.

Emerman 19:42, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, yes, nice touch adding a self-promotional link to a google archive review of an album you produced and which has a link at the bottom of it to one of your band pages you maintain. Please see the Conflict of Interest discussions on self-promotion. The item needs splitting and I hope correcting it doesn't wait forever. Emerman 19:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Please also note that when the article is disambiguated, only information that can be verified such as using cd cover names or allmusic.com regarding album titles should be included in discographies. If one member of a Sub Rosa band is claimed to have participated in a recording by another group that doesn't change the fact the album is by the major label group and belongs in its discography. The minor label group is trying to subsume the reputation of the major label group without verifiable information, and a really talented and experienced admin needs to work on this project and ignore the lobbyings of the minor label group to mix up the industry and take credit for the major label group's work. The major label group lists its discography at jajouka.com and a scan of that discography reveals they do not try to take credit for any of the two Sub Rosa albums or the Sub Rosa compilation. Emerman 20:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

BKLisenbee I am appalled at Frank Rynne's mischaracterizing both myself and Paul Bowles, with his references to the official site on Paul Bowles, paulbowles.org, which I'm the webmaster for. My last personal e-mail from Frank Rynne, was hysterical and threatening to "expose" Paul Bowles as some kind of pedophile, which he clearly was not. Yes, I do live in Tangier part of the year and was a friend of Paul Bowles. Rynne's entries on Wikipedia mentioning Paul Bowles as a friend of Joujouka are not at all true. Paul Bowles knew Brion Gysin and they were friends. Paul Bowles was also a close friend of photographer Cherie Nutting and her former husband Bachir Attar. However, it is totally incorrect to label me as associated in any way with the management of the Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar. Further, Bowles knew Bachir well and of course Cherie Nutting. He never knew or heard of any group of musicians led by Frank Rynne. Rynne's presumption that his little band of musicians are the only Joujouka musicians "living in the village" presumes that Bachir and his musicians don't live in the village. For accuracies' sake, his description "of the musicians who live in the village" should be removed, don't you think, as this implies that Bachir Attar and the Master Musicians of Jajouka don't actually live in Jajouka. It was neither the estate of Paul Bowles nor paulbowles.org who asked Bachir Attar to peform in March 2007 in Lisbon. It is mentioned on the site because the Jajouka performance/event is part of an homage to Paul Bowles, and neither the estate of Paul Bowles, myself, nor the official Paul Bowles site had anything to do with instigating this upcoming event in Portugal. I do not believe that having two Wikipedia entries will ever resolve this unfortunate problem completely, but it is certainly not right or fair that people looking for information on Jajouka or the Master Musicians of Jajouka are automatically redirected by Wikipedia to Rynne's slant on this subject. As far as Hamri goes, Paul Bowles did not abuse the poor guy as a teenager and threats to "expose" the famous writer and composer Paul Bowles is most unfortunate. That's libel and Rynne is offering no conclusive proof to back up that preposterous claim. Bowles did not like to be labeled sexually in any way and was not a "gay" writer or out-of-the-closet homosexual. He kept his personal life private and I would hate to see Rynne drag his name through the mud to vent his anger at the mess he created when he took on Jajouka and turned it into Joujouka. Cherie Nutting is the manager of the Jajouka musicians under Bachir Attar and she can speak for herself. I met her through Paul Bowles and many other friends of Paul Bowles in Tangier. That would be expected, of course, since I was Bowles' neighbor for 15 years. Personally, I know that Paul Bowles didn't much care for Hamri who was a very heavy drinker. Rynne's remarks about Mohamed Choukri's writings about Paul Bowles are hardly new. Bowles threatened a lawsuit against Choukri, who had publicly accused Bowles of all kinds of wrongs and bad-behavior which were not at all true. Bowles and Choukri had a falling out, yet Bowles is rightly and accurately credited with helping to make Choukri the famous writer that he eventually became, due to translations of his first novel. Choukri was an alcoholic, and everyone in Tangier knew that. Bowles felt that much of Choukri's libelous mischaracterization of him was due to the fact that he was nearly always under the heavy influence of alcohol. If Wikipedia must split the Jajouka/Joujouka mess into two (or four) articles, then it may, but be aware that Paul Bowles had nothing to do with Frank Rynne or his Joujouka band of musicians. Bowles liked Cherie Nutting and they were friends and that is why the Jajouka / Nutting photos are on the official Paul Bowles site, performing with Mick Jagger and the Rolling Stones and others. Rynne's group had nothing to do with Mick Jagger and his using their names to try to support that claim is factually incorrect and misleading. Rynne is the only one with an ax to grind in this situation, and I would prefer to see the spelling as Jajouka consistent with what even the MSN Encarta Encyclopedia says is correct. Frankly, I am tired of this dragging on and hope you will remove the redirections. I have other, more important work to do and can't be fixated on this. My concerns are mainly with and about Paul Bowles, as the webmaster for the official site established by the estate. It was the Centro Culturel de Belem center in Lisbon which invited Bachir Attar and the Master Musicians of Jajouka to perform at the Bowles homage. Rynne's totally incorrect to suggest that we the estate or paulbowles "sponsored" the event. They contacted Jajouka and Bachir directly, and must be aware that The Master Musicians of Jajouka is the "real" Jajouka. The information is on the site because it is an homage to Paul Bowles, the third in less than a year. BKLisenbee

Thanks for clarifying you are not involved in managing the Jajouka group but instead deal with the Paul Bowles site. Since you are knowledgeable in this topic more than most, it's unfortunate that you mention you don't have time to deal with editing much here (nor do I). What do you suggest is a way to split this entry? I think that is what the admin was asking. Or at least he asked us if it should be split. Emerman 21:21, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I take it that BKLisenbee has finished commenting after noting that the current redirect of the "jajouka" spelled band to the "joujouka" spelled one is highly inappropriate and I think that's pretty obviously correct. I therefore point again to the Allmusic.com method of splitting the two items. The Sub Rosa albums with the "joujouka" spelling, an explanation of the "joujouka" spelled name being an homage to the 1971 album spelling in that article. And the "jajouka" spelling article's discography should include all the other work shown at jajouka.com discography and the Jajouka Between the Mountains album. It's not about who the "real" band for the village is but the fact there are two groups with two spellings recording and the major label one uses "jajouka" for the spelling; their manager C. Nutting described their spelling history earlier today here. Regardless of all the arguing, the bottom line is that all parties said it should not stay as is and that disambiguation should be done. No other situation with two names for two separate bands has ever resulted in failure to disambiguate before this article. I'm not an admin, where are they? I know how to disambiguate but I thought an admin had already put himself in charge here. Emerman 03:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Notice

I've just done the following:

• Removed the redirect and created a separate article Master Musicians of Jajouka that needs expanding.
• Added the disambig notice on top of both articles. -- Szvest - ^{Wiki me up ®} 16:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Please see discussion at FayssalF's talk page for comments I have made on the subject. I do not agree to have some of my comments posted out of context here. Regarding his reply below, he is referring to issues related to how to disambiguate. I had thought a disambiguation table of contents is normally done but maybe not when the two bands have different names. I also suggested Master Musicians of Jajouka and Master Musicians of Joujouka be the two disambiguation names as well as a Brian Jones Presents the Master Musicians of Jajouka album page. Emerman 18:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I personally agree. However, only one thing that would be hard to implement. It is the disambig main page because of the title (i.e. Master Musicians of Jajouka (disambiguation) or Master Musicians of Joujouka (disambiguation)). I believe we do not need that page as we already have disambig notices on top of both articles. -- Szvest - ^{Wiki me up ®} 16:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

If you are going to be posting here excerpts out of context from conversations on other pages that include remarks written by me, please ask my permission in the future. I had no idea you were posting sections from the talk page of your page and not the entire conversation. Please see my talk page and FayssalF's for the full discussion assuming he hasn't gone and erased half of it already...consult his History file at his talk page in case that has taken place. Emerman 17:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

As for the idea of a table of contents, I am not sure it needs one since the two bands are not spelled the same, and you didn't go to my page and ask me about that before you went and posted that here, without knowing whether I'd changed my mind on that, while you instead talked about other things to me at my page and yours. I had since already decided it was not needed but you went and posted this here from an earlier part of the discussion without first asking me about that so I could respond. I don't appreciate that because it doesn't even reflect my current though since I don't even know that I think a table of contents for disambiguation when there are two name spellings is needed. I'm not sure though. Most disambiguation pages have the notice at the top AND ALSO a disambiguation page separately. But those have names spelled the same, which is why we probably won't do it here since we have two differently spelled names and it would indeed be hard to do. I had not thought of that till later but I didn't know you were wondering about it still because you didn't post to me about it so I could answer!

Emerman 17:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Coming late to the discussion, I applaud the decision to split into two separate pages for the two factions. As regards the name, it is interesting to note that the original 1971 release of the Brian Jones recording of Joujouka on Rolling Stones records used the "Joujouka" spelling: "Brian Jones presents the Pipes of Pan at Joujouka". See cover art of that recording here: [2]. Bachir Attar would have been a child when that recording was made (maybe 1969?).

Curiously, the 1995 re-issue was titled "Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar". The schism among the musicians had already taken place at this time; clearly, this re-issue was influenced by Bachir Attar, due to the change in spelling and, more notably, his protagonism in the album title, whereas the original release did not see fit to mention him (a young boy at the time). Deleted because I was mistaken but am leaving it in as subsequent comments refer to it.Jonur 17:51, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

"Joujouka" would appear to be an older spelling than Jajouka, but there is unlikely to be a "one true spelling" and I feel it is not worth fighting over. Jonur 16:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

If you're going to present facts then try using the correct album title and band name on the reissue. Bachir Attar's name is not in the artist name or title of the reissue, so your comment is factually incorrect. The reissue was entitled Brian Jones Presents The Pipes of Pan at Jajouka. And for the record, Bachir Attar began his training as a master musician as a child playing with his father's group, although what you said about the title is incorrect. What you think is worth "fighting" for is irrelevant. There are law suits possible on account of this situation with the name mistakes and so we're trying to take care of this properly. If you don't have any background in this other than Frank Rynne's album cover submissions and attempts to connect his current group up to the original group via Hamri, who never played in any of the groups but was a former manager, please do more reading and research. The name spelling issue was removed by the editor but if you are going to bring it back up then I am going to repaste into this talk page all the notes on the name spellings that the admin removed which would explain to you why you're mistaken. You didn't read the name history posted by Cherie Nutting yesterday, for instance, which is now in the history file. Amdin: please either replace the name history notes or remove further comments on name history or I'll put the whole name history discussion back in here. Emerman 17:02, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Which "name history" are you refering to Emerman? -- Szvest - ^{Wiki me up ®} 17:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

In the "joujouka" section you removed information from today here now only in the History file. Do you remember now, or do I need to repaste it back here for people to read again who have been getting only one side of the history of the Jajouka/Joujouka/Jahjouka name history issue? Emerman 17:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Could we please discuss issues related to The Pipes Of Pan at Talk:Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Joujouka. -- Szvest - ^{Wiki me up ®} 17:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

You don't have to ask permission to do that, just do it; you're an admin. What you do have to ask permission to do is copying and pasting people's remarks from one page and moving them to another, particularly when you do it piecemeal and out of context. When you tell people to write at your talk page, make up your mind where you want them to write. I do not give anyone permission to paste my talk page remarks other places without asking. My licensing agreement is for regular namespace not my talk page comments, which I specifically excluded. Emerman 17:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I did not see how you spelled that. You should have sought consensus before using a spelling that is clearly in contention and is not the spelling currently used in the industry today on the record currently in print. I object to what you have done and you should redirect that to the current spelling of the album IN PRINT TODAY. How can you say you are following procedure and aren't biased? Have you consulted how most music editors at wikipedia handle album pages of albums that are currently in print? I wish you would consult an admin on this who is not intersted in this band in any way regarding whether the album page should be the spelling currently in print with a redirect from the old spelling as I suggest.Emerman 18:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Emerman: I have withdrawn my mistaken reference and comment above - My bad! As for the name, what I meant was that the name debate is sterile and there is probably no "right" answer (we are dealing with transcriptions from a language that does not use the Latin alphabet, so there is always going to be a degree of subjectivity - check out the whole Bombay/Mumbai issue) - hence any further argument as to which spelling is correct merely adds to the entropy of the universe. Jonur 17:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I appreciate your well-intended comments. But names are extremely important in the music industry and there are two bands here with these names. This is not about which name is "more correct". There is a lot to read on this discussion; you may want to consult the history file because some of the discussion has been truncated. Of course this is sometimes done when people get too heated or people edit themselves as well and it's good to periodically archive pages instead of leave them too long to be readable but right now we're still in the middle of hashing all this out, so truncations till the conversation is done might lead to lack of fairness accidentally. Also see the discussions at the admin talk page. Once the discussion is over, I can certainly see archiving and removing text cluttering the page on a completed discussion being a good thing. Emerman 18:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion Moved to Mediation at User:FayssalF/JK

User:FayssalF/JK Opiumjones 23 (talk) 01:16, 21 December 2007 (UTC)