Talk:The Midnight Express (professional wrestling)

Discussion

I know no one will ever see this, but wasn't there a masked Midnight Express in CZW a few years ago? Inhumer 01:51, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

This article says that the theme song used was a "revamped" version of Giorgio Moroder's "The Chase." Does anybody know who did this revamped version and if it was released commercially?

Joey Maggs and Bobby Walker

This.. [1] states "Attempts were made to establish "new" MX teams on two different occasions during the '90s (Bob Holly and Bart Gunn in WWE, Joey Maggs and "Hardwork" Bobby Walker in WCW), but neither effort came close to recapturing the magic of the 1980s version". Is there more on this?

More.. [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]

How's about that, then?

None of those really strike me as good sources. A couple of them even identify Eaton and Maggs or Eaton and Walker as the Midnight Express. I'd have to go back and watch the original programs to tell for sure. --Khajidha (talk) 15:19, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I keep finding match reports and videos of Eaton and Maggs and Eaton and Walker, but can't find anything definitive on Maggs and Walker.--Khajidha (talk) 15:38, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Members in infobox

Randy Rose
Jack Victory
Norvell Austin
Ron Starr
Honky Tonk Man
Wendi Richter
Comrade Busick
Bombastic Bob
Bodacious Bart
Rip Morgan
Rikki Nelson
Brad Thomas
Rick Harris
Midnight Stallion
Mongolian Stomper
Norman Frederick Charles III
Big Bubba Rogers
Stan Lane
Dennis Condrey
Hercules Hernandez
Bobby Eaton
Bobby Walker
Joey Maggs
Tommy Weathers (manager)
Jim Cornette (manager)
Paul E. Dangerously (manager)

That's a bit overdone for what is supposed to be an infobox. You know, short and simple. Most of these people wrestled only a very few times with the group. I would suggest limiting the infobox to "major members" (or other such designation). Those would be: Condrey, Rose, Austin (maybe), Eaton, Lane, Holly, and Gunn as members and Cornette and Dangerously as managers. The rest could be better discussed in the history section. There are a few obvious errors here, as well. 1) "the Midnight Stallion" is the same person as "the Mongolian Stomper". 2) "Honky-Tonk Man" is a gimmick that Wayne Ferris used later on in the WWF. He was not going by that name when he was associated with the Express. Finally, even if every name stayed, shouldn't it be in some sort of order? Alphabetical, chronological, something? --Khajidha (talk) 16:31, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

But every person there was indeed a member of The Midnight Express at one time or another.

I agree about making it alphabetical or chronological too. Oh and... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=um43Gbov6ZA

I'm not disputing that they were members. But most of them were only affiliated with the ME for short periods. Such things are better handled by prose (or annotated lists) than by bulleted lists in an infobox. Look at articles like New World Order (professional wrestling), Four Horsemen (professional wrestling), D-Generation X, or The Dungeon of Doom. All of those have the full membership lower down in the article and only the nWo has any members in the infobox. And, even then, only the Hall of Fame membership.--Khajidha (talk) 18:54, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

PS- "Honky-Tonk Wayne Ferris"is not the same name as "The Honky-Tonk Man". Close, but not quite the same.--Khajidha (talk) 18:58, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

So, what would you suggest? Only keeping the "core" members(and even that is not certain), or doing a "Members" paragraph later in the article?

PS- How much of the video did you see? The interviewer refers to him as "Honky Tonk Wayne Ferris", but he then refers to himself as "the Honky Tonk Man" multiple times after that. It does however show that the "Honky Tonk Man" name/gimmick was used years before he was in the World Wrestling Federation.

Unless there is general agreement in sources as to "core" members, we probably can't come up with a definitive list. Mentioning all of the individuals in the history at the appropriate points is a must and a table/annotated list of everyone would be good. I did watch the whole thing. The announcer referred to him as "Honky Tonk Wayne Ferris" and he later used "the Honky Tonk Man" as a nickname for himself, but I still wouldn't consider that exactly the same as "The Honky-Tonk Man" gimmick. In the WWF he was only referred to as HTM, his name was not publicized, and his looks and mannerisms were set. You would never see the WWF version of HTM in casual clothes like this and being referred to as Wayne. Saying that "The Honky-Tonk Man" was a member of the ME implies to the reader that he appeared in the full gimmick, with the blue jumpsuit, dancing, and Elvis impression voice. We don't see that in this video and the fans at the time wouldn't have seen that in the ring. --Khajidha (talk) 19:36, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Going by that, multiple Wikipedia articles need editing. a) Bob Holly and Bart Gunn were never introduced as/referred to by the WWF in 1998 as the New Midnight Express. They were only ever referred to at the time as "The Midnight Express". It is only later that internet revisionism has declared that they were the New Midnight Express, rather than just a new Midnight Express. b) Throughout their runs in the AWA and Windy City, Dennis Condrey and Randy Rose were only ever referred to as the Midnight Express. They were only the Original Midnight Express for the few months they spent in JCP/WCW. And then again for their reunion shows in the 2000s. But no team called the Original Midnight Express ever appeared in the AWA or WCPW. No team called the Original Midnight Express ever won the AWA World Tag Team Title, or The Windy City Tag Team Title. Just as no team called The New Midnight Express ever appeared in the World Wrestling Federation. And no team called the New Midnight Express ever defeated the Headbangers to win the NWA World Tag Team Title.

Yes, all of those things need to be edited. --Khajidha (talk) 17:02, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Coming back to this after doing a little digging:

1) I'm finding videos of Tommy Weathers managing Condrey and Rose before they were joined by Austin, but I'm not sure if Weathers continued any after that point. If he did not, he might not qualify, as the name Midnight Express seems to have been adopted when Austin joined.

2) I can't find any sources for Comrade Busick, Rip Morgan, or Norman Frederick Charles III as members. I'm finding match results involving one or another of them against the ME, but nothing to show that they ever joined. Doesn't prove it didn't happen, but definitely needs citation.

3) Hercules and Bubba were Jim Cornette's bodyguards (each at different times). I know Bubba wrestled a few matches as part of the team after Condrey left, but that's a fill in situation that I wouldn't really count. I'd say mention him (and Herc) in the text, but not the infobox.

4) Wendy Richter's "honorary membership" was a one time thing, and more of an "attagirl" from Jim Cornette for helping the ME with Duggan. Again, more of an in text thing than an infobox thing.

5) Jack Victory - the more I think about it, the more I agree that this "stand in" appearance doesn't really rise to the level of membership. Another "in text" only thing.

6) still no evidence for Maggs and Walker

7) Not sure how much prominence to give to Nelson and Thomas. Did either of them wrestle more than one or two indy matches with the team? Were there any definite plans for them to continue as members? Leaning towards "in text" only for them, too.

8) I'm finding a few references to a Midnight Express 2.0 on the indy circuit in more recent years, but not sure how relevant this is.

--Khajidha (talk) 15:29, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Far as I can tell..

1) When exactly DID Austin join? The article now states July 27, 1981. But it also states that Condrey/Rose defeated Austin/Brad Armstrong for the SECW Tag Title on July 27, 1981, which is demonstrably not true. Here's July 1981 SECW results [7]. Scroll down to July 27. Hmm. Weathers was still definitely affiliated with Condrey/Rose until August 11, 1981 [8]. Had Austin joined up with Condrey/Rose yet?

2i) Comrade Busick is an interesting case. While Condrey/Rose were AWA World Tag Team Champions, Verne Gagne made a deal with Jerry Blackwell's new Georgia-based promotion called Southern Championship Wrestling. The Midnight Express were going to make appearances in SCW as AWA Tag Champions. But...the AWA didn't pay them the money they owed then. Condrey refused to appear for the AWA again, until they at least paid him some of the money they owed him. So, Stanley Blackburn was put on AWA television, to announce that the December 27 1987 match between the Midnight Express and Midnight Rockers(which Condrey and Rose clearly won)....had actually been won by the Rockers! The MX never worked for the AWA ever again. Which brings us to the MX appearing on SCW. Randy Rose and Paul E. Dangerously appeared(no longer as AWA Tag Champs), but Condrey refused. So, in his place, Randy Rose was paired with Comrade Busick as The Substitute Midnight Express for a handful of appearances around February/March 1988. (There was a website that gave a complete list of SCW results, but I can't find it now.)

2ii) After Chi-Town Rumble 1989, the very next night the exact same six-man tag team match was done again, on a house show, only with Rip Morgan replacing Jack Victory..[9] (Number 245).

2iii) Norman Frederick Charles III was part of Midnight Express Incorporated(along with Midnight Stallion etc.)[10] [11] ** One fact about this though is the difference between The Midnight Express and Midnight Express Incorporated. One appears to just be Condrey/Rose/Austin, and the other is those three plus Harris, Stallion and Charles. It's like in Georgia, when Paul Ellering managed a stable called The Legion of Doom. The Legion of Doom consisted of The Road Warriors, Jake Roberts, and The Spoiler. Animal and Hawk were both members of the Road Warriors and the Legion of Doom. Roberts and The Spoiler were members of the Legion of Doom, but NOT Road Warriors. (There was footage of the six-man Midnight Express Incorporated on YT, but can't seem to find it either..)

3)Maybe, but I'll come back to this.

4)Yes.

5)Yes.

6)But, Sources state this. It's interesting, in that, various websites ALL claim it, but we haven't found one definite piece of actual evidence to back it up. Does anyone know at least the year?

7) The only article I can find for Thomas is this [12]. Nelson however has more prominence, in that a)it can actually be verified that he teamed with Bobby Eaton as "The Midnight Express" and b)[13]

8)Who?

9)Whether people like it or not, Holly and Gunn are definitely part of the lineage, and may have been watched by more people than any other version, strange as that may sound.

Then there's something else interesting..[14]. (At about 3:30.) 197.86.195.36 (talk) 15:01, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

In fact, the Busick claim is from the SCW article in wiki. And the source is the February 1 1988 issue of the Wrestling Observer. I do not have the issue itself, but found two lengthy online recaps of that issue, which don't mention SCW at all. Of course, it is possible that the reviewers simply didn't include the information. I did, however, find information about Rose and Dangerously(with no one else) in SCW in Georgia in February 1988. Does anyone have that Feb 1 1988 Observer? Does it mention "The Substitute Midnight Express"? Is it possible that Rose and Busick teamed together, but without using the MX name?

References

Futile?

I have tried correcting all articles that inaccurately refer to Holly and Gunn as "The New Midnight Express"(a name that was never mentioned by the World Wrestling Federation) to the correct "The Midnight Express", as well as any non-WCW appearances of Condrey and Rose by the name they actually used everywhere except WCW.."The Midnight Express". Unfortunately, at least 2 of these articles were reverted by people who are obviously unaware of reality.

Again, there has NEVER been a team called "The New Midnight Express", except in the minds of internet trolls. And, in both the AWA and WCPW(as well as Rose's Condrey-less appearances in SCW), Condrey and Rose were just "The Midnight Express". They only added the "Original" when they went to JCP/WCW to differentiate them from Eaton/Lane.

Wikipedia needs to reflect this. I tried editing various articles. So why are people falsely adding "New" or "Original" on articles where they do NOT belong?

I have now attempted to edit many articles. One person even warned about "vandalism" after I tried to correct an article! The Jim Cornette article is locked however.

Actual members?

Rewatched Chi-Town Rumble. Rose is introduced as "Representing the Original Midnight Express", and Victory is "...and his partner". The introduction makes it sound like Victory is nor, and never was intended to be thought of being, a member of the Midnight Express. If that's the case, the same could be true of Rip Morgan. Someone who teamed with a ME member, but was not himself a member.

And then there's the trio of Midnight Stallion, Man Mountain Harris and Norman Frederick Charles III, who were are members of Midnight Express Inc., but not necessarily members of the Midnight Express...?

I think you're overthinking your first point. Couldn't it also be interpreted as saying that "Randy Rose and his partner, Jack Victory" are collectively representing the Original Midnight Express? Your second point is kind of in the same vein as my previous mention of separating the "core team" from all the various add ons and associates. How strictly defined is the distinction between the Midnight Express (the tag team) and Midnight Express Inc. (the stable)? Has anybody got a copy of Cornette's Midnight Express book? That might be a good resource.--Khajidha (talk) 16:55, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

The "Original" Midnight Express

Again, the only time that Condrey/Rose were "The Original Midnight Express" was in JCP/WCW. When they were in the AWA and then WCPW, they were simply "The Midnight Express". They only added "Original" when they went to JCP/WCW and started feuding with Eaton/Lane.

Nonsense in the beginning

Recapped here [15]

Brad Armstrong and The Shadow did NOT win the SECW Tag Team Titles on May 4 1981. It appears they were never SECW Tag Team Champions together at all! Multiple articles are thus wrong. Austin may very well have turned heel on Armstrong on July 27 1981, but again, go to the When They Were Cool website. The SECW Tag Title article is full of errors too, including teams that didn't exist yet winning the belts, non-existent title changes, and changes that DID occur not being listed, because these REAL title changes don't fit into the false title history listed there.197.86.195.204 (talk) 18:18, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

The "source" for those dates is given as a book. Does anyone have the text from that book? 197.86.195.204 (talk) 15:30, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Gunn and Holly

I understand why someone would choise to remove them from the main members box, but they were arguably the highest-profile version of the team, appeared on World Wrestling Federation pay-per-views(including WrestleMania XIV), and RAWs during the most-watched era, and were NWA World Tag Team Champions.

That was just an oversight on my part. I am still researching the other names that had been in there, so that a more coherent picture of the history of the team may be written.--Khajidha (talk) 12:19, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Not true.

The origin mentions stuff about Brad Armstrong and Norvell Austin, and even gives dates. However a) The information is wrong. b) It gives a book as its source. But The book does not contain that information at all. Seriously, I've just read the book, and NOWHERE is that said. At all. It's a blatant lie about a "source". The entire section needs to be rewritten! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.195.163 (talk) 13:47, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

MAJOR issues

I realize a lot of this may count as OR, and RS will need to be added, but the article now is wrong, as regards the beginnings. This has come from listening to shoots, reading old programs and clippings, and the tremendous work of people at sites like the SECW site. In addition, talking online with people who were actually there. So, RS will be required but...

• On December 7 1980 Dennis Condrey and Randy Rosr first team in SECW in Pensacola. This Team will last until late August 1981, and win multiple SECW Tag Titles... but they were never called The Midnight Express. This is confirmed by programs, commentary etc.

• The ENTIRE story about Norvell Austin and Brad Armstrong being Tag Champions, and Austin turning heel and joining Condrey and Rose is not true. ALL of it.

• The earliest confirmed existence of "The Midnight Express" is in the CWA in Memphis in November 1981.

• (From August to November 1981 Randy Rose had won the SECW Tag Titles with Jimmy Golden, and Dennis Condrey had been Alabama Heavyweight Champion, so the trio isn't the direct continuation of the duo.)

• While The Midnight Express won 4 Southern Tag Titles, the first was overturned, so it's 3 actual reigns, and 1 overturned reign.

• In May 1982 Jimmy Hart became their manager.

• By early September 1982 The Midnight Express were in SECW(without Hart).

• They appear to have won 6 SECW Tag Titles. But that number may be higher.

• On August 23 1983 Dennis Condrey lost a loser-leaves-town match. Within a few days Ron Starr became the third member along with Rose and Austin.

• At the end of September Norvell Austin left SECW. Within a few days Wayne Ferris replaced Austin, making The Midnight Express Rose, Starr and Austin.

• This trio was very short-lived as Rose left shortly afterwards. And Starr/Ferris dropped the name "The Midnight Express".

• While Starr/Ferris won the SECW Tag Titles, then later 2 Stampede Tag Titles, these aren't considered Midnight Express Tag Titles. So why should other combinations of past or future ME members count?

• It also appears that other pre-Midnight Express teams existed. Dennis Condrey and Bobby Eaton actually teamed together in 1979. Also in 1979, Norvell Austin and Randy Rose teamed up. They would win the SECW Tag Titles in 1980, then break up shortly after losing them. Bobby Eaton and Stan Lane teamed up in the CWA in 1981, even challenging for the Southern Tag Titles. But none of these were ever called "The Midnight Express"...

• And Randy Rose and Ron Starr would win Tag Team gold together in the mid-80's, but again it wasn't as "The Midnight Express". So, why should any other non-ME teams consisting of past or future members be called that?

The Reunion Championships

Appears to be WAY off. As far as I can tell, Condrey/Eaton reunited in the 2000's didn't win anywhere near that many titles.

As far as I can tell, the actual number is six 2000's championships.

It would appear that years ago someone made this edit [16], and everyone has just gone along with it ever since.

[17], [18], [19],[20], [21]. It also appears that "NWA Rocky Top" and "NWA East Tennessee" are the same promotion, and thus a single Tag Team Title reign.

Who is this guy?

[22] [23]]