Talk:The Old Church (Portland, Oregon)

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Requested move 2 September 2016

Latest comment: 8 years ago15 comments7 people in discussion

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to "The Old Church (Portland, Oregon)". (non-admin closure) Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk • mail) 06:51, 13 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

Calvary Presbyterian Church (Portland, Oregon) → The Old Church Concert Hall – In 1968 Calvary Presbyterian Church ceased to function as a church and became a non-profit concert hall. The Old Church Concert Hall is the name most commonly used for this building and The Old Church maintains an active website (http://theoldchurch.org/) and Google my Business profile and offers a robust program of concerts and events. This change will make it so that the Google information panel is consistent with current information. It is also worth noting that the building received its historic places designation only in 1972 after it had already ceased to be the Cavalry Presbyterian Church. Currently the Google information panel lists Cavalry Presbyterian Church when you do a google search for The Old Church (Portland). This title change will fix that and let users find the concert hall more easily. PdxUrbanHistory (talk) 20:43, 2 September 2016 (UTC) PdxUrbanHistory (talk) 20:43, 2 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for starting a discussion. Per WP:NAMINGCRITERIA, "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject." The above note says that "The Old Church Concert Hall is the name most commonly used for this building" but provides no links to sources. Can the proposer please provide sources? I do not see any web-based reliable sources in the article's references that call the building "The Old Church".

The organization that runs the venue calls it "The Old Church", so the "Concert Hall" part of the name should be left off if the article is moved. See http://theoldchurch.org/about/. The Old Church (Portland, Oregon) (an existing redirect) might be a better name. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:42, 2 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

Thanks Jonesey95 for your comments and sound advice. I have added a number of sources to the entry. All of them use the name the Old Church often in the title and in the main article text. Additionally there are many more ephemeral sources (mostly concert reviews and notices) all of which use the Old Church as the name. I did not think it appropriate to add concert reviews and notices to the entry. No sources post 1968 refer to the building as Cavalry Presbyterian Church.

I agree that "The Old Church" makes most sense as a title.PdxUrbanHistory (talk) 20:08, 6 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

Additionally, the current name "Cavalry Presbyterian Church" causes confusion as that church still exists at another location in Portland. You can find that church here: https://www.pcusa.org/congregations/7081/ and here: https://cascadespresbytery.org/church/calvary-presbyterian-church/ PdxUrbanHistory (talk) 04:36, 7 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

Seriously? Consensus? @Ronhjones: I think more discussion is needed here, if you don't mind. Even PdxUrbanHistory has said "The Old Church" may be most appropriate. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 01:31, 10 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@SJ Morg and Jonesey95: Pinging in case you wish to revisit this discussion. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 01:55, 10 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@Ronhjones: It was a mistake both to close this discussion and to move the article. Not only was there no consensus, there was almost no actual discussion of this proposed move. The nominator's position was stated, and then not a single other editor stated a position in support of, or in opposition to, the proposed move. Even the one person who left a comment, Jonesey95, took no position on whether the move should be made, writing that ".... the 'Concert Hall' part of the name should be left off if the article is moved." (italics added). The article should be moved back, and the discussion reopened. Speaking for myself, I am opposed to the title "The Old Church Concert Hall" (for reasons I stated in my August 17 edit summary), but I was considering endorsing "The Old Church (Portland, Oregon)", but I was simply too busy this week to review the additions made by User PdxUrbanHistory and make up my mind. However, I was not worried about my not having time to comment before the 7 days ran out, because I "knew" that, with no other comments, the proposed move would have to be relisted to generate more discussion – the standard practice in such cases (and which I knew would give me another week to get to it). I was also waiting for other editors to state a position or make a comment, again knowing that if no one did, then the article would not be moved and the move proposal would have to be relisted. Even if a closure of the discussion were deemed appropriate, it seems very clear from the above that the proper conclusion would have been to close it as "Not moved; no consensus", since not a single person other than the nominator even took a position. Please move the article back and reopen the discussion. SJ Morg (talk) 08:48, 10 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

--Relisting. Ronhjones ^(Talk) 17:58, 10 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

Thank you. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:01, 10 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

Support move to The Old Church (Portland, Oregon), as suggested by SJ Morg. The location is important to differentiate the venus from others around the word that have the same name, amongst them The Old Church, Stoke Newington and the numerous other "Old Church"es which use that name, such as Chelsea Old Church. Klbrain (talk) 11:04, 12 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

Support move to "The Old Church (Portland, Oregon)". – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:57, 12 September 2016 (UTC)Reply
I am fine with "The Old Church (Portland, Oregon)" as long as "Calvary Presbyterian Church" is mentioned in the lead sentence and infobox. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:08, 12 September 2016 (UTC)Reply
Support move to "The Old Church (Portland, Oregon)". PdxUrbanHistory (talk) 18:26, 12 September 2016 (UTC)Reply
Support move to "The Old Church (Portland, Oregon)", omitting "Concert Hall. The article still lacks any citations in support of the claim that "Old Church Concert Hall" is the common name, and – as noted above by Jonesey95 – even the organization itself does not mention the name "Concert Hall" on its website. @Another Believer: The original name, Calvary Presbyterian Church, would definitely still be prominently mentioned, in the first sentence (but with the order of two names swapped if the move is made) and the infobox, per Wikipedia's Manual of Style for NRHP-listed buildings. SJ Morg (talk) 05:31, 13 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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