Talk:The Order (TV series)

Country

Need citation for the show's country. Most of the actors are Canadian and it was filmed in Canada. There is no reference that indicates it's country, though, so I've removed the US as the show's country until a reference can be found. Kurt (talk) 15:22, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

@Kfitzner: It's as U.S. TV series as it was not advertised as otherwise. On Netflix, it is not listed as a "Canadian TV Shows" under its genres. See [1]. See examples of Netflix Originals that are not U.S. country of origin: [2] is listed as a "Canadian TV Shows" as one of its genres and [3] is listed as a "Australian TV Shows" as one of its genres. — YoungForever^(talk) 18:35, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

@YoungForever However Netflix has it organized in its show list is irrelevant. The general test for country of origin (and this is the same test applied for purposes of awards) is 2 out of 3 of where it was filmed, where the majority of credited actors are from, and where the production company is based. In this case, this lands it as a Canadian production (filmed in Canada and that is where the majority of its principle actors are from). Until and unless there is something stated in an official place, I am removing the country of origin. If you want to put it back, add a citation to a primary source. Because it wasn't advertised otherwise doesn't make it an American show. That is not a valid source. That is a non source. Kurt (talk) 04:17, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

@Kfitzner: Um, it is self explanatory from Netflix under the genre listed of the TV series and it is relevant because it is a Netflix Original. A lot of U.S. TV series are filmed in Canada and have actors are from Canada for your information. Here is the official Netflix US Twitter account [4] where it retweeted a tweet about The Order and here is Netflix Canada's Official Twitter account [5] with no tweets or retweets about The Order. — YoungForever^(talk) 05:14, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Not sure where this "2 out of 3" thing is from, but WP:MOSTV says: "A series's nationality (country of origin) should be referenced by reliable sources, directly if possible, but otherwise by referencing the country or collaboration within which principal creative control was exercised." Creative control is with Netflix, if it's a Netflix show. Last time I checked, Netflix isn't Canadian. Where they film and the actors is irrelevant. Most studios based out of California film in Canada, specifically Vancouver most of the time, because it's financially better. Actors frequently come from there as well. If you went by your definition, basically ever show on The CW (and American company) would be Canadian, because most film in Canada and have Canadian actors. That isn't the case. The country should default to American and require a source stating anything else of the such.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 18:16, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

@Bignole: As I stated above, if it is a Canadian TV series it would be listed as a "Canadian TV Shows" as one of its genres on Netflix. This is the case for non U.S. TV series on Netflix. If a TV series is an Australian TV series, it would listed as an "Australian TV Shows" as one of its genre. If a TV series is a Korean TV series, it would be listed as a "Korean TV Shows" as one of the genres. If a TV series is a British TV series, it would be listed as "British TV Shows" as one of the genres. You get the point. — YoungForever^(talk) 20:53, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Nomadic Pictures, the production company with principal creative control, is a Canadian production company. Produced by a Canadian production company, filmed in Canada with Canadian actors - looks like a Canadian production purchased by Netflix. How Netflix classifies it is not really defining for our purposes. Netflix location genres may just be the fictional setting. Geraldo Perez (talk) 23:27, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

@Geraldo Perez: Fair enough. However, it was not advertised on Netflix Canada's official social media accounts. Instead, it was advertised Netflix's official social media accounts which is the Netflix US. — YoungForever^(talk) 23:44, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Again, I point to the MOS which says who has creative control dictates the country of origin. It doesn't matter if Netflix brings in a Canadian studio to do the work. They have creative control because it is their show. Like, 100% their show. Not like a Marvel show where Marvel owns the show and Netflix airs the show.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 03:12, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

This says "Netflix has given a 10-episode series order to 'The Order', a horror drama series from Canadian production company Nomadic Pictures (Hell on Wheels, Van Helsing)". That is the same as any outlet choosing to buy a product from a production company and release it. Netflix has no more creative control on this series than any broadcast network has on ongoing series they broadcast. Netflix bought an existing product from a Canadian production firm. That Canadian production firm has the creative control, not Netflix. Netflix's only involvement is whether or not to commit to purchase the series and make it available. Geraldo Perez (talk) 04:13, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Hell on Wheels is an American TV series as it aired on AMC (an American network) whereas Van Helsing is an American-Canadian TV series (I am not entirely sure why though) which airs on Syfy, also an American network. — YoungForever^(talk) 04:23, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Nationality is not consistently applied on TV series articles. Part of why we are having a debate here. Some articles are going with nationality of network of first airing. Usually, but not always, the initial network is in the production country so this is not an issue. If a production company shops a series, it is possible that the first pickup will be in another country. That looks to be the situation here. Geraldo Perez (talk) 04:39, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

I believe it is an U.S. TV series because it wasn't advertised in other countries' Netflix official social media accounts. It was only advertised on Netflix (US) official social media accounts. I still stand by what I said about genres. — YoungForever^(talk) 04:15, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Netflix likely only bought the US distribution rights. It is possible that Nomadic is shopping the series in other countries. Geraldo Perez (talk) 04:39, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

If Nomadic Pictures is shopping the series in other countries, we would read about it on Deadline Hollywood, TVLine and/or other reliable TV series news by now. — YoungForever^(talk) 05:04, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

"Country of origin" is determined by whoever puts up the bulk of the money to produce the TV show. With that said, it looks like in this specific case, because that is not all together clear from sourcing, and editors are diagreeing with no consensus on the question, it's probably best to leave "Country of origin" blank in the infobox, and leave nationality out of the lede. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 12:23, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

"Putting up the bulk of the money" doesn't match the MOS. I'm not sure why people are ignoring that fact in favor of coming up with their own definitions. It's who has creative control. Now, I'm assuming Netflix does only based on what I can find. A production company does not automatically get creative control. They are just the hands the build the house, not necessarily the architect of the design. If Nomad truly is the owner of the show and they shopped around and Netflix picked it up, then yes it would be a Canadian show. Where is broadcasts isn't necessarily the determining factor of country of origin. That's why the MOS says it's who has creative control (i.e., who actually owns the product). A good example of this would be a show like "Longmire" or "Lucifer". "Longmire" wasn't owned by A&E, and "Lucifer" was not owned by Fox. They are both owned by Warner Bros., so when they were cancelled on their respective networks Warner shopped them around (both ended up with Netflix). That was when Netflix wasn't creating original programming (at least not to the degree they are now). So, the question comes down to who actually owns the product. Does Nomad own it or does Netflix. Production companies do not automatically own what they are producing. You can have a joint Canadian, UK, Chinese, American production (where multiple people are contributing), but that doesn't put the film in joint ownership. Thus, you would identify it based on who owns it (who has creative control), not who contributed to it building.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 13:27, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

You're making an utterly semantic argument: "who puts up the money" = "who has creative control"/"who owns it". It's the same thing... The issue here is that is not clear who that is. So best to leave it out for now. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:33, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Again, that's not necessarily the case. Warner can own something and license it out to someone else to put the money up. It's still their property, they just don't provide the majority of the money to actually make it. With how most films today often have multiple production companies involved to dispel the cost of making the movie, it isn't as simple as "who put up the most money". At the end of the day, the person that owns it has final say, no matter what money they put in.

That said, I agree that the biggest issue here is that we don't actually know for sure who owns this show.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 13:47, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

As per the credits, the production took advantage of the Canadian Film or Video Production Tax Credit (https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/services/funding/cavco-tax-credits/canadian-film-video-production.html), which means that it is officially considered as a Canadian production.--SpecialK (talk) 14:14, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Need more information – I would assume that every U.S. TV show filmed in Canada takes advantage of that tax credit. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:57, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

No, American productions can only qualify for the Film or Video Production Services Tax Credit or PSTC (https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/services/funding/cavco-tax-credits/film-video-production-services.html). The CPTC is reserved to productions that are officially certified by the Government of Canada as Canadian. --SpecialK (talk) 15:51, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Harder for that that particular credit. The link says that the production needs to convince, with a pretty high legal hurdle, the Government of Canada that it is a Canadian product in order to get the credit. The Government of Canada considers the show to be a Canadian television series. That credit is more than a get work incentive, it is create Canadian content incentive. Per link: "The intent of the guidelines is to ensure Canadian control over productions." We appear to be harder to convince than the Canadian government. Geraldo Perez (talk) 15:22, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

The specific copyright owner per copyright card in credits is "The ORDER B.C. Productions Inc.". Also listed there are Directors Guild of Canada, Writers Guild of Canada but no equivalent US Guilds for writers and directors. Both Canadian and American actors unions are listed. The show credits say "A Netflix Original Series" and also "In association with Nomadic Pictures" prominent. Original series in other networks just means first aired and sponsored by the stated network - Netflix is likely no different. Dubious they are doing much more for their original content then choosing among proposals from production companies and picking which ones to air, same as any other network. No indication I've seen that Netflix has a creative team in control of production and is just looking for subcontractors to produce them. The original network pickup is the financial support needed to produce any series, most don't go beyond a pilot stage without a network commitment.

For the purposes of the lead, WP:TVLEAD basically says leave out a nationality unless it is singular and can be supported by references. The credits are a primary source and don't directly declare a nationality. I personally think the credits are clear that it is a Canadian creative product with a network pickup and financial support by a US company. We do not have sourced information on what the relationship is between Netflix and the the companies that actually produce their stuff but is likely no different than that between any original airing network and the production company making the show. When Netflix went to original content they just moved from basically second airing to first airing for some of their stuff. They didn't become a production company. Geraldo Perez (talk) 14:59, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

The use of the CPTC is a declaration of nationality. The broadcaster (Netflix) plays no role in the nationality of a production.--SpecialK (talk) 15:52, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Sam Trammell

Why is he in the starring when his character was in only 2 episodes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.236.58.30 (talk) 22:42, 12 March 2019 (UTC)