Talk:The Perth Group

Reliable sources are needed (BLP)

I would like to emphasize that there should be independent, reliable sourcing for any name added to this article. Also, is there reliable evidence that Perth is an actual group and not just a website, that it is active, and, if so, that it currently has than two members? SpectraValor (talk) 19:14, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Page rewritten today. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 17:43, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

What the Perth group main claim is ...

The Perth Group main claim is that the existence of HIV is not proven and not that HIV infection does not cause AIDS

Source: http://theperthgroup.com/whatargued.html

The view of The Perth Group is that the HIV/AIDS experts have not proven: 1. The existence of a unique, exogenously acquired retrovirus, HIV.

So I propose to modify the beginning of the article according to this fact.

Peter the Roman --2.136.95.135 (talk) 20:40, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Peter, before you do that, please copy the text which you propose to modify and place it in this thread. Then juxtapose your proposed version below it. That way we can see the difference, and maybe we can help you get this right the first time and get it included. If your modification is merely an addition, go ahead and add it. If we don't like it, it will be reverted and we'll just follow the WP:BRD process until we get it right. That way we can avoid any edit warring and the version that gets included will be nearly bullet proof. I suspect that's what you would like. It's all about article improvement. -- Brangifer (talk) 17:14, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Text to modify:

The Perth Group is a group of AIDS denialists based in Perth, Western Australia who claim, in opposition to the scientific consensus, that HIV infection does not cause AIDS.

Text modified:

The Perth Group is a group of HIV/AIDS denialists based in Perth, Western Australia who claim, in opposition to the scientific consensus, that the existence of the HIV virus is not proven.

Peter the Roman. --2.136.95.135 (talk) 23:25, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

It looks like they're really all over the map: [1]. Reading that list of claims, it appears that they're saying that HIV doesn't exist (1), and that the antibody-based tests for HIV aren't specific for HIV (2), and that HIV doesn't cause AIDS (3), and that the sequenced genome of HIV isn't correct (4), and that HIV isn't infectious, either through blood products, intercourse, or from mother to child (5 & 6). It's got a bit of an "I didn't do it, and you didn't see me do it, and you can't prove I did it" flavor to it. Do they have a clearer statement of their views anywhere? And should we be looking for reliable secondary sources to summarize those? (And have those views changed over time?) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:31, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Of those six statements, the most important, undoubtedly, is the number 1, which says HIV existence is not proven. The other five are consequences of that number 1. If you don't have HIV itself, then you don't have tests specific for HIV infection (2), you don't have HIV as the cause of AIDS (3), you don't have the HIV genome (4), you don't have infectious AIDS, that is, HIV (5) and you don't have mother to child transmision of HIV. Peter the Roman, --2.136.95.135 (talk) 01:13, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I think we should include all those points. Peter, would you be willing to create such a version? -- Brangifer (talk) 02:40, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

of course!, but mi idea was to initially say the most important point, that they deny HIV, and others afterwards, in the Claims section. In this interview [2] to Eleni Papadopulos you can read that the most important thing is denying HIV. Peter the Roman, --2.136.95.135 (talk) 04:52, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Of course we want the main point first, but we also want to document the full extent of their main beliefs. Are the other points mentioned above accurate? Can they be reliably sourced to Perth Group documents and statements? -- Brangifer (talk) 05:19, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

of course they are accurate, you can see them simply loading their web page http://www.theperthgroup.com and then to the left and above, that "What the Perth Group has argued" Peter the Roman, --2.136.95.135 (talk) 05:47, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Due to the extensive nature of the many claims, I have simply made the change you suggested above, and also added material further down, all linked to the website. What do you think of the additions? -- Brangifer (talk) 15:59, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I have made some more tweaks. -- Brangifer (talk) 16:24, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

In my opinion, and after long time following and studying to these scientists, the two main points of "What the Perth Group has argued" [3] are the next:

The view of The Perth Group is that the HIV/AIDS experts have not proven: 1. The existence of a unique, exogenously acquired retrovirus, HIV.

The Perth Group has argued: 2. That AIDS and all the phenomena inferred as "HIV" are induced by changes in cellular redox brought about by the oxidative nature of substances and exposures common to all the AIDS risk groups and to the cells used in the "culture" and "isolation" of "HIV".

So this information, and nothing else, should be reflected at the beginning of the article. With some more simple words it would be, for example:

The Perth Group is a group of HIV/AIDS denialists based in Perth, Western Australia who claim, in opposition to the scientific consensus, that the existence of HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus) is not proven, and that AIDS and all the "HIV" phenomena are caused by changes in cellular redox due to the oxidative nature of substances and exposures common to all the AIDS risk groups, and are caused by the cell conditions used in the "culture" and "isolation" of "HIV"

I added that "conditions", I am pretty sure it was a typo to say "cells"

Peter the Roman. --2.136.95.135 (talk) 19:25, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

If someone has any objections to modify the article according to the above, please expose them here. Otherwise I will proceed to modify the article in the near future. Peter the Roman, --2.136.95.135 (talk) 21:04, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

 Done -- Peter the Roman --2.136.95.135 (talk) 02:38, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Rearrangements of the "Claims" part of the article.

It is my view that the Claims part need a rearrangement and certain corrections (for example, The Perth group did not offer the reward, it was a dissident English magazine named Continuum), and perhaps additions too.

The first step to accomplish all that would be to simply rearrange the phrases of the paragrahps, having the claims at the begining in a first paragraph and the critiques afterwards in a second paragraph, and a third paragraph with the reward issue.

Text to modify:

AIDS researcher Seth Kalichman, author of a book on AIDS denialism, described the group's claims as confusing and inconsistent, using complicated explanations and rhetorical techniques to "sound scientific" in their incorrect assertions regarding research on HIV and AIDS.[3] The group acknowledges that AIDS exists, but denies that it is caused by HIV infection,[6] producing a list of ten positions that attempts to criticize the established science that HIV causes AIDS. Instead, the group attributes AIDS deaths to on oxidative damage caused by factors unrelated to viral infection, such as drug use, homosexual activity between men (primarily exposure to semen), poverty and the medications used to treat AIDS. Kalichman notes that although oxidation does have an impact on the immune system, none of the processes claimed by the Perth Group cause AIDS, whose cause has been definitively identified as HIV infection.[7] The group also denies that the causative agent of AIDS is transmitted through heterosexual sexual activity.[8][2][9][10]

The group has also denied that the human immunodeficiency virus itself exists,[2][10] claiming to offer a $20,000 reward for anybody who can produce evidence for its existence. Peter Duesberg, an AIDS denialist who claims HIV exists but is harmless, refuted their claims and provided evidence of the existence of HIV, but the group did not provide the money.[3] Writing in the Skeptical Inquirer, professor of economics and the director of the AIDS and Society Research Unit at the University of Cape Town Nicoli Nattrass suggested that their beliefs may in part be due to misunderstanding of the science involved.[2]

Text modified:

The group denies that the human immunodeficiency virus itself exists.[2][10] The group acknowledges that AIDS exists, but denies that it is caused by HIV infection,[6] producing a list of ten positions that attempts to criticize the established science that HIV causes AIDS. Instead, the group attributes AIDS deaths to on oxidative damage caused by factors unrelated to viral infection, such as drug use, homosexual activity between men (primarily exposure to semen), poverty and the medications used to treat AIDS. The group also denies that the causative agent of AIDS is transmitted through heterosexual sexual activity.[8][2][9][10]

AIDS researcher Seth Kalichman, author of a book on AIDS denialism, described the group's claims as confusing and inconsistent, using complicated explanations and rhetorical techniques to "sound scientific" in their incorrect assertions regarding research on HIV and AIDS.[3]Kalichman notes that although oxidation does have an impact on the immune system, none of the processes claimed by the Perth Group cause AIDS, whose cause has been definitively identified as HIV infection.[7] Writing in the Skeptical Inquirer, professor of economics and the director of the AIDS and Society Research Unit at the University of Cape Town Nicoli Nattrass suggested that their beliefs may in part be due to misunderstanding of the science involved.[2]

The group was claiming to offer a $20,000 reward for anybody who can produce evidence for its existence. Peter Duesberg, an AIDS denialist who claims HIV exists but is harmless, refuted their claims and provided evidence of the existence of HIV, but the group did not provide the money.[3]

Peter the Roman. --2.136.95.135 (talk) 00:18, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

If someone has any objections to modify the article according to the above, please expose them here. Otherwise I will proceed to modify the article in the near future. Peter the Roman, --2.136.95.135 (talk) 21:05, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

 Done -- Peter the Roman --2.136.95.135 (talk) 02:40, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

The Perth Group article in other languages

This article about The Perth Group is in the Spanish Wikipedia: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupo_de_Perth

But I don't know how to reflect it in the "languages" zone, that is currently empty. Thank you for your support. Peter the Roman, --2.136.95.135 (talk) 06:29, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

 Done -- Brangifer (talk) 15:26, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

The Perth Group did not offer any reward ...

The next text in the article is totally false, and even hilarious for those who know about that challenge:

The group ... claiming to offer a $20,000 reward for anybody who can produce evidence for its existence. Peter Duesberg, an AIDS denialist who claims HIV exists but is harmless, refuted their claims and provided evidence of the existence of HIV, but the group did not provide the money.[4]

The information about that challenge is here [4], where you can read the prize was £ 1.000 offered by the Continuum magazine (a British dissident o "denialist" magazine), not by the Perth Group.

The Perth Group said: When Peter Duesberg claimed it, we challenged his claim. Peter claimed that the existence of the “HIV infectious molecular clone” proves that “HIV” exists. However, he never gave any evidence for the existence of the “HIV infectious molecular clone”. (extracted from here [5])

Peter the Roman. --2.136.95.135 (talk) 20:59, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

If someone has any objections to modify the article according to the above, please expose them here. Otherwise I will proceed to modify the article in the near future. Peter the Roman, --2.136.95.135 (talk) 21:06, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

 Done -- Peter the Roman --2.136.95.135 (talk) 02:41, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

The current text is not clear,

"As the group denies that the human immunodeficiency virus itself exists, the denialist magazine Continuum offered a £ 1,000 reward for anybody who can produce evidence for its existence."

This seems to imply that "Continuum" offered a reward "As the group denies..." What is the association between the group's denial that HIV exists have to do with the magazine offering the reward? I think this may just be a case of editing existing text without clean up. I suggest an edit which identifies the offered reward independently, then Duesberg's attempt to claim the reward followed by the fact that The Perth Group contested Duesberg's attempt to claim the reward. The citations should be for the published articles with a link to the convenience copy available on The Perth Group website.

The statement, "but the magazine did not provide the money because the Perth Group challenged his claim." is not in the source given it is only a link to a convenience copy of the article in which the group challenges the claim. "the magazine did not provide the money" is not present in the source given nor is "because the Perth Group challenged his claim".

Published articles should be properly identified with the source (journal, magazine), date of publication and authors. The title of the article can be linked to the convenience copy per WP policy. MrBill3 (talk) 07:07, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Seth Kalichman

Who is Seth Kalichman??

There is nothing rhetorical or complicated about Perth's science. Stop using Wikipedia and 'neutrality' to neutralize good science and the truth! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:540:C001:7708:985B:FA83:9EAB:8D91 (talk) 01:31, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos deceased

She died a month ago, as you can see here:

https://westannouncements.com.au/browse/obituaries/view/eleopulos-papadopulos-eleni

The article probably needs to be updated to reflect that fact. --80.103.39.59 (talk) 05:12, 21 April 2022 (UTC)