Talk:The Philosopher's Stone (album)

RFC on recording dates

The consensus is not to place Heylin's dates on the track listing.

Cunard (talk) 00:22, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The officially given recording dates on this album have been challenged by one of Morrison's biographers, Clinton Heylin, in the 2003 book Can You Feel The Silence?.[1]. Heylin's research is noted in the article (in the Recording dates section), and the alternative dates, with rationales, are given. However, Heylin's dates are also given in the Track listing section as though authoritative. There has been some discussion on this matter here.

The question for this RFC is: Is it appropriate for Wikipedia to place Heylin's dates on the track listing? Relisted by Cunard (talk) at 03:48, 22 October 2017 (UTC). SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:53, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Discussion

• No. My feeling is that if we use either Heylin's or the given recording dates on the track listing, we are taking sides in a debate, which takes us away from being neutral. We do not as a matter of course put recording dates on track listings anyway, though we can do so where it is seen as useful. In this instance, to do so would not be useful, but would simply be indicating that we favour Heylin's research (or if we gave the official dates, we would be seen as disputing Heylin's research). The article mentions that the album is a collection of recordings from an earlier period in Morrison's career, and Heylin's research on the dates are already given. Readers should be allowed to make up their own minds, rather than have them made up by Wikipedia. Our purpose, as indicated in the useful essay on incidents like this: Wikipedia:Fringe theories, is that we report debates and alternative research, but we do not give them undue weight. I am inclined toward Heylin's dates myself, and feel that the reporting of his research is helpful, but making his dates more official than the official dates is something I feel very uncomfortable about as it doesn't seem to side with our aims or guidelines. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:53, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
• Yes. Heylin references information directly from the recording sessions in his book, his research comes directly from the oirginal source. Heylin's book is completely accepted in these dates by subsequent biographers. Peter Mills, Johnny Rogan and Peter Wrench in their books conclude that it is impossible for the recording dates on the album to be correct from musicians accounts, musicians that couldn't have played with Morrison in that year and the fact that Morrison wasn't even in the location of recording at that time.

Heylin notes that the beginning of the section of his book that shows the recording dates that some are educated guesses, but they are marked with a question mark. Non of the recording dates, save one, are marked with a question mark. The one exception, "Really Don't Know", is listed as a Moondance outtake by Rogan, which was recorded in 1969 not 1971, supporting Heylin. There is also a source in the article: "Everything about The Philosopher's Stone, from its format to its packaging to its song selection, seems designed to divorce the tracks from their historical milieu...When we open the package, there are no essays, no interviews, no archival photos — just lyrics (often incorrectly transcribed) and credits which include the year of the session." This states that some of the information in the sleeve notes is not correct and was put together hastily, which diminishes the reliability of the sleeve notes further.

I would argue that the recording dates are central to the article, because it is comprised of outtakes from throughout Morrison's career and would hamper the reader's understanding of the subject if not included. Recording dates are used in the track listing of similar outtake articles in wikipedia, such as Tracks (Bruce Springsteen album) and The Bootleg Series Volumes 1–3 (Rare & Unreleased) 1961–1991.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 10:28, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Peter Wrench, in regards to the "Wonderful Remark" recording, notes that "Lee Charlton has one other Morrison credit for playing on ‘Wonderful Remark’, which was eventually released on the Philosopher’s Stone out-takes collection. The sleeve notes to that release place the recording as being in 1973 in The Church at San Anselmo  – though, given that Bill Church, Ronnie Montrose and Boots Houston were the other musicians involved, one wonders whether it might have been recorded rather earlier. Clinton Heylin believes that the track was recorded at the same location as ‘Almost Independence Day’ and lists it as a Saint Dominic’s Preview out-take .[51] That makes sense to me." (Wrench, Peter. Saint Dominic's Flashback: Van Morrison's Classic Album, Forty Years On (Kindle Locations 1057-1068). FeedARead. Kindle Edition.)

"There were nine other out-takes from the Saint Dominic’s sessions: ‘Wild Side Of Life’, ‘Down By The Riverside’, ‘Boogie Chillun’, ‘Drown In My Own Tears’, ‘Hunnel Funnel’, ‘I Came Out Of The Blue’, ‘Don’t Let Up’, ‘Let It Be Me’ and ‘Give It To Me.’[98] Most, as he notes, are covers. Covers featured regularly in the live sets of the time and would also be used to warm up in the studio. There is an interesting remark from the ZigZag interview in 1973, suggesting that at least some of those cover-version out-takes may have come from the first Pacific High session when ‘Almost Independence Day’ was recorded. Van is asked about Leroy Vinnegar’s jazz background and says: ‘Right, but he plays everything; like we cut some country and western. He can play anything.’" (Wrench, Peter. Saint Dominic's Flashback: Van Morrison's Classic Album, Forty Years On (Kindle Locations 2196-2201). FeedARead. Kindle Edition.)

""Western Plain" and John Henry"... They were cut in 1975, went unissued until 1998." (Mills p.5)  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 10:51, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

• No. For reasons offered by SilkTork and, as the section is called 'track listing', it makes more sense for the dates to be 'as-per-the-disc' for comparison with the claims immediately above. Pincrete (talk) 16:34, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

• Comment. I will keep this RFC open until 21 Oct. If there are no more comments at that point, I will close this as a No. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 14:04, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

• RfC relisting comment: Relisted to try to solicit more participation and to allow for more discussion about Kitchen Roll's arguments. Cunard (talk) 03:48, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.