Talk:The Pinball Arcade

Older Versions Not Mentioned

The Pinball Arcade was originally launched as standalone projects (Gottlieb and Williams Collections) on the PS2, PSP, Wii. While they do not have the DLC capability, they were the original games and should probably be included in this article or in a stand alone article as precursor to the DLC based arcade. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jrcplanet (talk • contribs) 17:08, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Please read the article. It is the first paragraph under development. --95.240.124.29 (talk) 20:08, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Additional tables announced?

I read that Funhouse is also coming but am having difficulty relocating the source? Can anyone help? Thanks! --The Bachmann Editor Overdrive (talk) 22:53, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Harley-Davidson (need help)

I added Harley-Davidson to the list of upcoming tables. The formatting is a bit tricky, so I have a few questions.

Background: The first version of Harley-Davidson was produced by Sega in 1999. The version FarSight is using is the third version, made by Stern (owner of Sega's pinball assets). The Internet Pinball Database does not list the year the third version was manufactured (the second was in 2002). The third version is basically the same as the original. According to IPDB, the only things different in the second and third versions is art (using newer Harley models, for example).

I have tentatively listed "Stern (orig. Sega)" as the manufacturer, though "Stern/Sega" may be more appropriate. The parts I'm having trouble with are the title and year, and how they agree. As I said, I don't know when the third edition came out. If I listed the title as "Harley-Davidson (Third Edition)" and the year as 1999, that would seem to imply that the third edition came out in 1999. Even if I did know the year, that would be awkward ("20xx/1999?"). But if I didn't say it was the third edition, people might assume it was the original. That information is in the notes column, which the list of released games lacks.

I know I'm overthinking this. Someone help me out here. --(agnamaracs) (talk) 07:18, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

"Ghostbusters" Table

A recent point of contention was a passage involving FarSight's development of a table themed around Ghostbusters. Since the table is not part of The Pinball Arcade, there is a question of why it's here. It certainly belongs in FarSight's article as one of their released titles, but if the only connection to TPA is that users of the software get additional in-game credits, that's a very loose connection to this particular software. In other words, it's not really that important to TPA. Opinions? --McDoobAU93 16:12, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Ghostbusters is a stand-alone application that is not included with or accessible from TPA. NatureBoyMD (talk) 16:48, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Oppose. TPA users got more tokens. It is based on a TPA table. It is the same engine. It was mentioned on Farsight TPA News site. Pinball Hall of Fame games and Pinball After Dark spin-off are also mentioned in this article. I do not know why you want to conceal and censor this information. Readers of this article should be informed about this. --134.109.240.50 (talk) 10:02, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

How is it censored when we're all saying it goes in another article? --McDoobAU93 13:24, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

There is no other article and a separate article for this table would probably not meet the criteria for notability. Again then you should also delete the information about Pinball After Dark and Pinball Hall of Fame games. This table has a clear connection to TPA even it is only a spin off. Spin offs are normally mentioned in the main article. --134.109.240.35 (talk) 13:59, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

If we take the spin-off route, then we need only mention it exists, nothing more. Anything more, such as pricing and how the game is played, fails WP:GAMEGUIDE and is inappropriate. --McDoobAU93 14:23, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

So we can mention the Ghostbusters table at least? --134.109.240.50 (talk) 15:48, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Agreed; as a stand-alone app it definitely belongs in the developer's page, but not here. If this were an add-on or an optional table in TPA, then it would belong. Scr★pIron^IV 12:35, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

It does not hurt anybody to mention a connected game in the main article. If I would not know about it I would want this information in this article. --134.109.240.35 (talk) 13:59, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Disputed text

Besides recreations of existing pinball machines, FarSight is also producing its own original-design tables. A Ghostbusters-themed table was released in late October 2014 as a stand-alone application for Android and iOS using the same layout as Haunted House. The application was initially distributed at no cost, but required the use of tokens that regenerate by four daily. Pinball Arcade users received eight tokens per day. Later the table was made available for purchase with unlimited play. The Ghostbuster theme song was removed in this version.

Sources for new tables

When FarSight Studios mentions the table on its own Facebook page, and provides links to other sources it has (YouTube and Twitch channels), I think that's reasonable enough coverage for the existence of the table to be included, even though, yes, Facebook generally isn't that reliable a source. The source only describes the existence of the table, not its release date or platforms. Under WP:IAR, I think this is not an inappropriate use of Facebook as a source, considering how limited it is (which would also be supported by WP:PRIMARY). --McDoobAU93 18:26, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Too many rules to ignore; it is not a new release (doesn't belong), WP:CRSYTAL when no date announced, bad cite WP:RS - how much more do you want? Looks like we are just adding fancruft if we include it. I would accept a WP:PRIMARY - but not Facebook. Facebook is the source of all sorts of lies. Scr★pIron^IV 18:28, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Company's website directly links to the Facebook page that has the description, improving authenticity and reliability. WP:CRYSTAL doesn't apply as this is not being used to generate a standalone article on the table; this article would be the "larger topic" described in CRYSTAL subsection 5, and the existence of the table is not speculation or rumor at this point if the company is publishing screenshots of it. Yes, something can occur in development and the table can be removed, if needed, should development be cancelled. Again, usage of the source is merely to indicate the table is being converted for The Pinball Arcade, nothing more, so this usage would fit under WP:PRIMARY and a much less stretched variant of WP:IAR. --McDoobAU93 18:40, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Besides, the table already exists, and it is just a re-release; so not even a future release. I understand - and am usually open - to less notable subjects having poorer sources, and have advocated for some of them on occasion. But using Facebook for something that does not even necessarily deserve inclusion in this table is just too much. Scr★pIron^IV 18:55, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm confused. The table is about future releases for the software, and the developer of the software is providing screenshots of a table it is introducing for the software, thus making it a future release. So why would that not merit inclusion in a table about future releases for the software? --McDoobAU93 19:01, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

If I did not misread it, it is a re-release of prior software. How is that new? Scr★pIron^IV 19:12, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

A physical pinball machine is not "software". It's a software port of a piece of hardware that has not been released on this software before. If I take another read of your post, should I assume that you would think the entire "future releases" table is inappropriate? --McDoobAU93 19:23, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

While the idea of "Future Realeases" could be problematic, I would have no issue with one that is properly sourced with release dates. Scr★pIron^IV 19:53, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Which brings us right back where we started. The gaming media simply will not cover each time the game updates, so that leaves us with what the company itself reveals, and they frequently reveal information on Facebook. Sometimes with dates, and sometimes without. Dates can be added when they're available. For an example of how this works, check out this page ... purely as a reference point, because trying to match another article fails WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. I will not argue that the sources are better than Facebook, but they're still often fan-sites and they get their information from—wait for it—the game publishers. --McDoobAU93 20:23, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

It gets difficult; but I guess it boils down to whether Wikipedia chooses to mirror fan sites, or whether it is going to be an encyclopedia. Should not what we choose to include be "fit to print," as the old saying goes? Or do we devolve into the the stuff and nonsense that can be found in other corners of the internet. Personally, I would choose to go with the minimalist approach when we can't find sources. I don't have much issue with game designers posting their schedules on their own sites as an acceptable WP:PRIMARY source, and using that for these less notable projects. But posting on Facebook - where anyone can be included as "part of the group" if someone adds them - it has even less oversight than their web page as developed by their cousin Joe. Somebody has to draw a line in the sand somewhere, and it's why we have policies. I don't mind stretching the rules; take a look at the Dungeons and Dragons pages; it is thousands of pages of violations, but I also understand that the project would die if it were not mostly internally referenced. This one? Whether Wikipedia includes a promotion of a "future release" or not is of no harm to the 'pedia Scr★pIron^IV 20:48, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Ultimately no, its presence or absence will not kill the project nor raise it to the pinnacle of perfection. But the fact is the VAST majority of video games don't add content continually. Most are finished whey they're released (aside from maintenance patches). A growing number supplement their initial release with additional content, but even that ends after a short period (usually 6-12 months after initial launch). The entire point of this article, and I would argue its notability, is its continued addition of new content. In THIS case, I think that such information is warranted, and if all we have is the company posting on its preferred social media outlet (Facebook, like it or not), then it's all we have and we just have to swallow our pride and include the information.

Yes, each such use should be vetted, as many Facebook pages (the page for The Pinball Arcade included) allow other users to post directly to their page, appearing as if the page itself is posting it. In THIS case, the post is from The Pinball Arcade, which the company's website links to directly (as mentioned before). Technically, every citation in every article should be vetted. Assuming every Facebook mention is bad is the same as assuming every Wall Street Journal article is good. Mistakes happen and opinion articles are misread as factual pieces ... long story short, nobody's perfect, and bad sources sometimes get things right. Always remember, it was the National Enquirer that scooped the entire media empire in breaking Bill Clinton's affair with Monica Lewinsky.

--McDoobAU93 21:28, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Newly organized table

I'm all for reflecting the delistings of the Bally/Williams content and showing how the new tables are organized, but did we have to lose the listing of what season each table was included in? It's lost something in my opinion without that data.

I actually was here just to see what was in season 3. I own everything for the PS4, but no PS4 as of yet. I also own seasons 1-2 for the Wii U and season 4 on the PS3. So I actually visited today to see what exactly was in season 3, since there's no evidence in the Wii U app that it's gone and I was considering possibly trying to make a purchase over a week into July after it was supposed to be gone (partly just to see if my purchase attempt gets declined at the end or not).

But it's all reorganized and that information isn't here without going back to an older version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:6000:A645:2100:4DD5:37EE:10DF:4E5A (talk) 20:06, 8 July 2018 (UTC)