Talk:The Preacher and the Bear

Neutral terms

@Baseball Bugs: the problems with your statement are that it's 1) Original research, and 2) referenced by a WP:PRIMARY source. What we need is a WP:SECONDARY source, where somebody analyzes the two sets of lyrics and comes to a conclusion about the changes. Then, our article can report on what they said. -- RoySmith (talk) 21:42, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

You're overlooking the obvious. Footnote number 6 does exactly the same thing - it reports the lyric. The lyric I quoted is from the Phil Harris version. Either both should stay, or both should go. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:49, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

The fact that something else is wrong, doesn't make this right. -- RoySmith (talk) 03:18, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

So I'm deleting the bogus footnote 6 item, and then everything should be peachy (as opposed to persimmony). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:19, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Footnote 6 refers to "a version". A video of another version sung by an African American group is included. I'm not sure exactly what point you are trying to make but there are various versions of the song. Is this what you want stated in the article? I have no objection to inckuding that although I think its6 somewhat imploed by saying something is a folk song and already clear because various versions are noted and included. Let's not forget that this is a coon song and emerged in an era when songs with exaggerated and often mocking attitudes were extremely popular. FloridaArmy (talk) 12:48, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

That's how it began, but with a few simple alterations the slurs disappear and you've still got a usable song. That's what Phil Harris (among others) did, and that was the point I was trying to make with my original edit. Arthur Collins' well-known recording started "A preacher..." in the versions I've heard (not "A n*gger") but then it mentioned "coon" several times, and also included a reference to a razor, which also fit a black stereotype. Collins' version was kind of the definitive version until it and various other blatantly racist songs got reworded in more enlightened times. The "soundie" clip with the black singers is even farther removed from the original than Harris' version is, replacing the razor thing with a knife. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:09, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

• The fundamental problem here is that there's a dearth of good sources. I just did a little searching and found tons of places that have the lyrics, or catalog listings, or downloadable recordings, etc. All of those are WP:PRIMARY sources. I found a few WP:SECONDARY sources:

• https://www.loc.gov/jukebox/recordings/detail/id/5972
• https://everything2.com/title/The+Preacher+and+the+Bear
• https://robertwilliamsofbrooklyn.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-preacher-and-bear-jubalaires.html

The LOC site is basically just a catalog listing, but it does note that, These historical recordings may contain offensive or inappropriate language. The other two look like blogs, and are thus generally considered not WP:RELIABLE. It's possible there's not enough sourcing to justify an article at all. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:49, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

To clarify, there's clearly enough sourcing to have a basic article saying who wrote it, who recorded it, etc. Those things are easy to source. What there may not be enough sourcing for is for commentary on the various versions that exist, and their choice of vocabulary in the lyrics. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:54, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

I dug a bit more. Looks like you can find some good solid sources in this search. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:58, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

The lyrics themselves are not the issue. That information is readily available. The issue is that calling them "racist slurs", while observably true, is POV-pushing when in the article. Instead of trying to claim the various links as "sources", it would be better to list them under "external links". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:28, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

The latest changes are misleading. It was a "coon song", but it no longer is, thanks to the cleaned-up lyrics (as sung by Phil Harris, the Jubalaires, and others). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:07, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

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