Talk:The Raben Group

Islamic Relief Worldwide

Is a controversial organization and worthy of a section of her own. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.212.107.47 (talk) 20:29, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

edit warring

OK, my attention was called to this from a posting at WP:COIN. Some crazy edit-warring go on here. I've requested full page protection for a few days while you all sort out your issues. Please come to Talk and discuss the issues. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 23:02, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Seems like some editors are addiing content about islamic relief, namely:

• Richie1Thoa in this dif
• Neujue12 this dif kept that, and removed laundrylist/promo content
• Barredondo removed islamic relief and added a bunch of unsourced positive content here
• Richie1921 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Raben_Group&diff=653908817&oldid=653906293 restored islamic stuff (sourcing to newsmax and the like)
• Barredondo reverted and added other positive content
• 162.212.107.47 restored islamic relief stuff (same sources as others) and removed positive content
• Barredondo removed islamic stuff and added positive stuff back.

Ok, so that is the story so far. You all need to talk out the differences here and stop edit warring. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 23:22, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

And for disclosure, Barredono is an employee of the firm. I have no relation to company. Richie1921 (talk) 00:53, 30 March 2015 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Barredondo

Issue At Hand

Let us address the fact that this whole page is marketing material and not worthy of Wikipedia. This reads like an ad. I was attempting to clean it up and ask assistance doing so. Richie1921 (talk) 00:41, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Raben_Group

The page as is uses marketing materials, not facts. Representing a terror organization has attracted media and that's what causing them to try and clean the site of what belongs as lead. Richie1921 (talk) 00:48, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Authentic worthwhile sources - not from this company website

terror: http://www.newsmax.com/RonnTorossian/Hamas-Terror-Raben-Group-Lobby/2015/03/27/id/634911/

http://www.odwyerpr.com/story/public/4308/2015-03-26/raben-comes-relief-islamic-relief.html

http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/terrorist-organization-hires-washington-d-c-lobbying-firm/2015/03/27/?shared=emailmsg=fail

Guns:

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/03/26/rapid-deployment-shotspotter-controversial-urban-microphone-system-aided-aggressive-lobbying/

Richie1921 (talk) 00:51, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for coming to Talk. I agree that the article has a lot of unsourced content that needs to be sourced or removed. With regard to those sources, which you were edit warring into the article... none of them are [{WP:RS]]. Think "NY Times", ""Wall Steet Journal", and the like. Can you provide sources from anything like that? thanks. Jytdog (talk) 00:54, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Jewish press is largest Jewish newspaper in America. Newsmax is also major publication. If they are not worthy then the entire page is not worthy and should be removed. The representation of IRW is newsworthy and was covered at length by largest pr paper in America which is major for a lobbying company. AN employee is trying to whitewash it. Thank you. Richie1921 (talk) 01:04, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 29 March 2015

<protected edit request removed>

remove all the marketing materials and revert to what the page was before barrendo - who is a raben group employee - made this a marketing page for the company. all my edits are legit. Richie1921 (talk) 00:54, 30 March 2015 (UTC) Richie1921 (talk) 00:54, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

You are new here. You have to propose a specific change and the editors watching this page need to agree to it. Only after that, will an admin act on it. Jytdog (talk) 00:56, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your assistance. I propose that the page be made into this -

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Raben_Group&oldid=653939480 - as the page now is a marketing tool for the company which a self admitted employee created. The page as presented there would be accurate and what is now on page is marketing 01:01, 30 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richie1921 (talk • contribs)

Please calm down, and please slow down. There is no deadline here (please read that). (I am going to be pointing you to lots of documents within Wikipedia like that. You are new here, and there is lots to learn about how things work.) The version of the page you are pointing to, is not better than this one. As I mentioned, please propose specific changes, one at time, for discussion. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 01:07, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

2 primary edits 1 - The information regarding terrorist representation be restored. 2 - Profile & policy breakfasts sections be removed. They are fluff. and not Wikipedia worthy. Richie1921 (talk) 01:10, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

those are major edits. that the marketing fluff be removed. and that the terrorist representation be restored. and if the sources aren't wiki worthy then the page is not wiki worthy as they have no wsj or nyt sources. thank you ~~`~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richie1921 (talk • contribs) 01:15, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

please propose specific content, with its source, one bit at a time. Like this:

"The article doesn't say the following at all, and we should add the following content: "In 2015, there was controversy surrounding Raben Group being hired by Islamic Rights Worldwide, a terorrist organization that has been outlawed in Russia & Israel.

References

What do you all think of that?"

like that. you have to seek WP:CONSENSUS - that is how this place works. Jytdog (talk) 01:21, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 30 March 2015

<protected edit request removed> Ick. The whole article is written like an advert. PR-speak like "the value-based firm drives progressive public policy..." and so on does not inspire confidence in the objectivity of the article.

My specific request? WP:TNT. Seriously. Start over from a clean slate and gradually introduce material, building consensus along the way. The article is short enough that this wouldn't be too burdensome. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:58, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Here is a new article which ran in a very major Washington DC outlet on this issue. It must be relevant. http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/237255-islamic-terror-organization-taps-dc-lobbying-firm Richie1921 (talk) 19:57, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Potential Outline of a Rewrite

still wrong approach, remove big batch of text Jytdog (talk)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The Raben Group is a Washington, D.C.-based lobbying,[1] consulting, and public affairs firm founded by Robert Raben, former United States Assistant Attorney General under President Bill Clinton. The Raben Group specializes in issues of law and public policy.[2] The firm maintains offices in Washington, D.C., New York City and Los Angeles.[3][4] In March 2015, the Raben Group was hired by controversial organization Islamic Relief Worldwide, whom has been banned as a terror organization in Israel & Russia. [5] [6] Contents [hide] • 1 Profile • 2 Clients • 3 References • 4 External links Profile Founded in 2001, the firm's founder,. [7] Robert Raben has been described as a top lobbyist by The Washingtonian,[8] The Hill,[9] and Washington Life Magazine.[7] Raben has noted that “I was very deliberate about that and very focused on our work reflecting and serving the community. I’m interested in how power is distributed in this country and what we can do to change that. We are a value-driven firm.” [10] Clients In March 2015, the Raben Group was hired by controversial organization Islamic Relief Worldwide, whom has been banned as a terror organization in Israel & Russia. Numerous publications referred to the organization as a Hamas front organization. http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/237255-islamic-terror-organization-taps-dc-lobbying-firm Richie1921 (talk) 19:57, 30 March 2015 (UTC) [11] [12] [13] Another client, ShotSpotter uses revolutionary technology to " detect, locate and report gunshots to police. Critics worry that the microphones are prone to false alarms, and more troubling, appear to vacuum up street-level conversations in the neighborhoods where it has been installed." Raben Group is one of four lobbying companies they use. [14] In 2013, The March on Washington Film Festival [15] was founded by Robert Raben, The Raben Group and Victoria Bassetti. The inaugural festival sought to honor the 50th anniversary of the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom, tell stories of the Civil Rights Era, and motivate a new generation of activists. References 1. Jump up ^ "The Raben Group". OpenSecrets.org. Retrieved 7 August 2012. 2. Jump up ^ "About The Raben Group". 3. Jump up ^ "The Raben Group homepage". 4. Jump up ^ http://www.rabengroup.com/our-people 5. Jump up ^ http://www.newsmax.com/RonnTorossian/Hamas-Terror-Raben-Group-Lobby/2015/03/27/id/634911/ 6. Jump up ^ http://www.odwyerpr.com/story/public/4308/2015-03-26/raben-comes-relief-islamic-relief.html 7. ^ Jump up to: a b Staff (1 May 2009). "The 2009 Power 100". Washington Life Magazine. 8. Jump up ^ Eisler, Kim (1 June 2007). "Hired Guns: The City's 50 Top Lobbyists". The Washingtonian. 9. Jump up ^ "Top Lobbyists: Hired Guns". The Hill. 14 May 2009. 10. Jump up ^ Guadalupe, Patricia (Spring 2013). "Power Players". Latinomagazine.com. 11. Jump up ^ http://www.newsmax.com/RonnTorossian/Hamas-Terror-Raben-Group-Lobby/2015/03/27/id/634911/ 12. Jump up ^ http://www.odwyerpr.com/story/public/4308/2015-03-26/raben-comes-relief-islamic-relief.html 13. Jump up ^ http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/terrorist-organization-hires-washington-d-c-lobbying-firm/2015/03/27/?shared=emailmsg=fail 14. Jump up ^ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/03/26/rapid-deployment-shotspotter-controversial-urban-microphone-system-aided-aggressive-lobbying/ 15. Jump up ^ "About the Festival". The March on Washington Film Festival.

Richie1921 (talk) 19:57, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

you are making me repeat myself, which is unfortunate. really - the way this works, when an article has been page protected for edit warring, is that you have to go slowly, bit by bit - asking for an admin to implement an entire rewrite that you have not gotten consensus for first, is never going to happen You have to suggest specific changes, as I showed you above. please stop wasting your time and mine - and plus some administrator is going to have to come here and say "no". please stop jumping to actual edit requests. Please propose specific, single changes for us to discuss. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 20:05, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

proposal

Remove sections on Profile & policy breakfasts as they are marketing fluff. Richie1921 (talk) 20:21, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Removing the section on Profile is too broad a brush - we need to take that more bit by bit. I agree that the "Policy breakfast" section can go, and likewise the "Clients" section, which in my view is just a WP:LAUNDRYLIST. Objections to removing those two sections from anyone? Anyone else in favor? Jytdog (talk) 04:55, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Would then propose leaving the 1st part of the profile section, but the rest of it is once again marketing materials and not something which belongs on Wikipedia. The page as it reads now is also simply lifted from Raben Group website, as edited by a self-admitted employee of said organization. Richie1921 (talk) 12:00, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

let's deal with that next. one thing at a time, or the discussion becomes impossible to manage. . do you agree to delete those two sections? if so i will make an edit request for that, if no one else objects. then we will start to work through the profile section. Jytdog (talk) 12:14, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

yes I agree to delete those two sections in full than can work through next steps and more. Richie1921 (talk) 21:45, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

TNT proposal, yes.

I read this again and agree with WP:TNT. Would everybody agree to stubify this and leave just the lead, and then rebuild? thx for the suggestion, Short Brigade Harvester Boris. I'll start looking for good sources today, to rebuild from. Jytdog (talk) 13:38, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

As a concept it can work. This firm has had ample controversy and it should be reflected. Its a simple piece. He's had some noteability, Clinton administration, some of the Controversy and that seems like the piece. Richie1921 (talk) 21:46, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Strong support- this article is only showing the company line, in a semi-promotional way. Joseph2302 (talk) 21:49, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Also support. And then we can discuss additional edits. Richie1921 (talk) 00:02, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

OK, Short harvester proposed it, so he will agree, so i am going to go ahead and make the request:

Per the discussion above, please stubify the article, removing all content other than the lead. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 22:09, 31 March 2015 (UTC) Is someone making this change please so we can start to clean this up from a marketing material created by an employeeRichie1921 (talk) 03:31, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Richie, you got us into a locked article situation by edit warring. This is WP, and you must be patient. We are a volunteer organization, not some paid service - as I wrote to you before there is WP:NODEADLINE here. We are waiting for an admin to respond to the edit request. We can, however, start to draft new content. Can you present sources you would like to use? Please bring sources from reliable, mainstream publications like the New York Times, the Wall Street, Washington Post, etc. (see WP:RS) Everything here, starts with sources. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 03:56, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

• actually, Swarm as you protected the article, would you be willing to implement the TNT proposal above? We have consensus for it. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 04:03, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I think you're being a little too hard on Richie given that the "edit war" on his part was a single series of consecutive edits (which formally counts as one edit for the purpose of evaluating edit warring). Moreover this was in response to an editor with a declared WP:COI who shouldn't have been editing the article in the first place.

Anyway, as far as the edit request, it would go faster if you contacted an admin directly. These things tend to be backlogged. Or you could just wait for the protection to expire in about three days. This isn't a high-profile article so there's little harm in waiting. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:10, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I did per ping above. Jytdog (talk) 05:04, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I do intend to make major changes once the protection expires. The "Edit war" was in fact one edit which shouldn't have been there to begin with. 95% of the current article does not belong.

Regarding "sources" I have already provided sources and you rejected the largest jewish newspaper in America and a major Washington dc publication and you said they aren't reliable. As I said if not then the whole article does not belong. Anyway, lets start fixing the above and then can make more major changes. If have to wait 3 days, will. Thanks. Richie1921 (talk) 10:50, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Richie you appear to be focused on one issue and three of the sources you have brought are focused on that one issue; in the fourth article Raben has a passing mention. We have to rewrite the article on the organization as a whole. Jytdog (talk) 11:39, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

 Done TNT'ed. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:57, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Useful sources

did a google search 15 pages in, searched NY Times site and WaPo site. here are some sources that we can use to start rebuilding... some I need to check at RSN to see if they are reliable or not.

• http://www.washingtonian.com/articles/people/hired-guns-the-citys-50-top-lobbyists/
• http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/04/AR2009080403132_pf.html

just data to show who they lobby for:

• https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/firmsum.php?id=D000036932
• http://reporting.sunlightfoundation.com/lobbying/firm/raben-group

not sure if Odwyer (cited by Richie) is reliable but they have two stories on RabenL

• http://www.odwyerpr.com/story/public/466/2013-05-03/raben-group-pushes-for-visas-for-at-risk-afghans.html
• http://www.odwyerpr.com/story/public/4308/2015-03-26/raben-comes-relief-islamic-relief.html (brought by Richie)

not sure if this is reliable:

• http://www.washingtonblade.com/2014/07/17/gay-owned-firm-seeks-to-dive-deep-with-new-lgbt-initiative/

not sure if this is reliable:

• http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/the-americas-blog/paid-to-trash-argentina-raben-does-just-that-without-disclosing-financial-interests

a start.. Jytdog (talk) 12:13, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

note, i had originally listed the intercept/ShotSpotter article cited by Richie but it is just a passing mention. Jytdog (talk) 13:18, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Here is something I think is absolutely worthwhile as a lead that they represent terror organization: http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/237255-islamic-terror-organization-taps-dc-lobbying-firm largest jewish newspaper in America: http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/terrorist-organization-hires-washington-d-c-lobbying-firm/2015/03/27/0/?print Opinion of allen West: http://allenbwest.com/2015/04/american-firm-picks-up-islamic-terror-organization-as-a-new-client/ Richie1921 (talk) 16:59, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

have a source for the islamic relief stuff. If you are here to push a single POV or single issue, you are not going to be happy. this is an article on Raben Group overall - not one of their clients. We will not give WP:UNDUE weight (read that link - it is policy) to one thing they have done, much less to one political perspective on that. You will see what that looks like, as content gets drafted. Jytdog (talk) 21:31, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Not looking for "undue weight" simply that its a major news story (what you call "Islamic Relief stuff"). Representing terrorists is a big deal and it should be reflected there. Its been big news and it should be reflected as such in Raben Group bio. And you will see me continue to ensure that story is reflected as it should be.Richie1921 (talk) 00:43, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

i hope this doesn't turn into a beating a dead horse thing. as i said, there is a source about that in the list above. but please, keep making your POV super clear; it will be useful later. Jytdog (talk) 01:11, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Since there is consensus on need for Islamic Rights Worldwide in the story, onto the next one.

This should be present

Raben Group Work For Pornography Industry

The Raben Group has worked extensively for the pornography industry, helping to raise awareness of pornography in Washington, and lobbying to tax adult entertainment online. 3 separate soruces:

http://www.nationaljournal.com/magazine/inside-washington-20080419

Striking blondes have a way of getting attention in D.C. That’s a sure bet for adult-film starlet Stormy Daniels, who will represent the Association of Sites Advocating Child Protection at the National Press Club on May 29. The Los Angeles-based group of porn producers wants to keep adult Internet content away from kids. Online child safety has been a key issue for the Justice Department and has prompted hearings, legislation, and self-regulatory actions by industry, such as ASACP’s own online warning-label program. ASACP, whose inside-the-Beltway exposure has been scarce, has hired the Raben Group to raise its image in the public policy realm.

http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/2598-companies-hire-washington-lobbyists-before-bad-news-breaks Another victim of bad PR — the adult-film industry — similarly has increased its presence here. Upset that it was the subject of critical Senate hearings into adult films and not given a chance to dispute the charges, adult-film makers formed the Free Speech Coalition and hired the Raben Group. “When you are treated that way, you know, we felt maybe we needed some professional help,” said Kat Sunlove, the director of legislative affairs for the Coalition, which is based in California. Sunlove said the Raben Group, which specializes in civil-rights law, has helped set up meetings between adult-film representatives and staffers to educate Congress on such things as how the Internet has affected the industry and what the industry is doing to protect against child pornography.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/16/AR2005111602116.html Raben says his team is going to be working on building coalitions with other groups in Washington concerned about free speech and government regulation. And they'll probably be fighting congressional efforts to restrict Internet content and to tax adult entertainment online Richie1921 (talk) 02:33, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

sources brought by Richie

just looked at them again.

• http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/terrorist-organization-hires-washington-d-c-lobbying-firm/2015/03/27/?shared=emailmsg=fail
• http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/237255-islamic-terror-organization-taps-dc-lobbying-firm

both written by Ronn Torossian, whose article is beset by sockpuppeting. (see Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Ronn_Torossian. Richie is now banned. Was probably another. Jytdog (talk) 18:38, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

merge to Robert Raben

after building the article back, it was clear to me that we had only a stub here. I merged it per the subject. Jytdog (talk) 18:59, 4 April 2015 (UTC)