Talk:The Shamen

Red links/notability

There are too many red links in this article. Wikipedia has standards regarding notability; not every song or album is considered 'worthy' of a seperate article.

I propose retaining red (and preferably blue!) links for the following:

Albums

• Drop (The Shamen album) (1987) -- Debut album
• In Gorbachev We Trust (1989) -- Landmark album; Will Sin's arrival
• Phorward (1989) -- Landmark, The Shamen's metamorphosis from jangly psychedelic indie rock to serious techno merchants is complete
• En Tact (1990) -- Of course
• Boss Drum (1992) -- Massive commercial (and some critical) success
• Different Drum -- should redirect to and be covered in Boss Drum. (NB: I think there was a Michael Nesmith album of the same name? Off the top of my head...)
• Axis Mutatis (1995)
• Hempton Manor (1996)
• UV (album)

Singles/songs

I think it's best to start out with a few red links. We can always look at adding articles for e.g. the other singles from Boss Drum later.

• Christopher Mayhew Says/Mayhew Speaks Out -- I consider this notable because it's an important song in the genre
• Jesus Loves Amerika -- Ditto
• Move Any Mountain/Pro Gen -- I think indisputably notable; brought dance music to the attention of the indie brigade and an important landmark in the Shamen's history
• Ebeneezer Goode -- A #1 hit single

• Strange Days Dream -- is possible because of the S&N sessions, but I've delinked it for now

Personnel

I think that only Colin, Mr C, and Will Sin are candidates for individual articles. C has a profile outside the Shamen, but Colin and Will might not need individual articles. --kingboyk 23:02, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Mr C

Do we know when Mr C officially joined The Shamen? I was under the impression (perhaps mistaken) that he was a guest musician until Will Sin died, at which time (when exactly?) Colin invited him to become an official member? --kingboyk 19:02, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I think (although I'm not 100% about this) that he joined the group in late 1990, when the group were heavily touring and promoting the 'En-Tact' album. User:DShamen 10:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Having just checked http://www.nemeton.com/static/nemeton/history.html, and http://www.dancetrippin.tv/boxes/dj.cfm?djid=1551&showmedia=1reading and the biography they provided from their active days, I think 1991 is an clearly too late, so late 1990 is probably the most accurate we can be. he was not a member for their tracks preceding progen in 1990. --Princekilderkin (talk) 00:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

the bands myspace has the members dates as follows, beyond years i have no idea, i havent seen any month being referanced, ive included a list here...

Colin Angus - Vocals, guitars, keyboards (1985-1999) Derek McKenzie - Vocals (1985-1987) Keith McKenzie - Drums (1985-1988) Peter Stephenson - Keyboards (1985-1988) Will Sinnott - Bass, vocals, keyboards (1987-1991) Richard West (Mr C) - Vocals, keyboards (1990-1999)

must note it doesnt have all members, none of the guest vocalist.--Princekilderkin (talk) 02:14, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

First techno influences?

The article states that

it wasn't until June's "Jesus Loves Amerika" single that the techno influence began to show.

That's June, 1988. But Christopher Mayhew Says came in September 1987. Surely that one is as much techno as Jesus Loves Amerika? (Or, maybe more importantly, an obvious break with their earlier style. Neither of those two have much in common with their much later and frequently more commercial sound.) JöG 22:34, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I actually wrote a lot of the content for The Shamen article originally, including this statement... I'll happily agree with you in that 'Christopher Mayhew Says' was the first radical change by the group. I actually based a lot of what I'd written on an article actually written by Colin Angus and Will Sinnott around 1989/90. It's debatable whether 'Jesus Loves Amerika' could actually be classed as 'techno' for sure, probably more of an alternative rock track with hip-hop influences, so I certainly don't object to it being changed... DShamen 00:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

It was a lot darker than what had come before; it was the start of something new whether it was techno or not. Anyway, best to base these things on what published authors say not what we as editors think. --kingboyk (talk) 19:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Plavka

http://www.plavka.com/notw.jpg

How come nothing is mentioned of her? Is it because her presence exposes Angus in a rather unfavorable light? One way or the other, the info from the published article should be included in the history section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.145.10.49 (talk) 04:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. USRepublican (talk) 00:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I softened the part which said ... left under less than amicable circumstances. The source is supposed to be the referenced magazine, but the conflict there was mostly in the headlines – the real information in the text was that Angus refused to let her have a parallel solo career. "Less than amicable circumstances" when people leave bands tends to imply shotguns, or being kicked out of tour buses in the middle of nowhere ... JöG (talk) 07:43, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Location doesn't match

The article says: "In May 1991, The Shamen headed to Tenerife to film a video for "Move Any Mountain." On May 23, Sinnott drowned in an accident off coast of La Gomera."

This reads strange, because La Gomera is the island in the west of Tenerife. They flew to A, but he dropped of the coast on B. Do you mean "They headed to the Canary Islands"?

Furthermore this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Move_Any_Mountain says "The promotional video was filmed on the Tenerife island where Will Sinnott drowned and died"

Where did the accident happen? Teneriffe or La Gomera? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.133.119.177 (talk) 14:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Themes

Possibly hard to reference properly, but it annoys me that the article is fairly heavily POV, and still fails to capture the themes of the Shamen's music, which were faily obvious to fans at the time. Off the top of my head:

• anti-Christianity
• anti-Thatcher, anti US Christian right-wing
• making political and spiritual change through use of psychedelic drugs,
• drugs and dance music as modern shamanistic tools
• eschatology

Much of this can be tied to McKenna, I suppose. JöG (talk) 07:59, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

"The"?

Ok, so everyone has always called them "The Shamen", but here's the thing. Go and look at their record sleeves. There is no "The". It's just "Shamen". When Colin talks about the band, he says "Shamen", not "The Shamen". I think it's about time this misnomer was put to bed. 87.194.161.101 (talk) 01:31, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

This quote uses 'the' several times.

Colin Angus later said :"When it first happened, I was still reeling from the shock of Will's completely unexpected and tragic death, and I couldn't think about the Shamen at all, couldn't see how anything could continue. But as I came to terms with it and thought about the situation I realised that what the Shamen's about was positivity and that positivity is like the spirit of the music and positivity acknowledges the need for change. So for those reasons I elected to carry on and also I knew that the name Shamen really meant a lot to Will and that was one of the main attractions for joining the band for him."

As a matter of interest Pink Floyd were originally referred-to as The Pink Floyd. The 'the' part signifies that they are an entity consisting of several members as a collective group. That is why you have The Beatles and The Rolling Stones, but don't have The Tom Jones or The Frank Sinatra. You don't need the in front of group names such as ABBA because the initials already make up the individual's personal names - Anni-Frid, Benny, Bjorn, Agnetha.

It's all down to English grammar, which I don't think is taught much these days, although the omission of 'the' in group names has as much do to with marketing and fashions as it does to do with poor grammar.

Another ungrammatical expression is becoming commonplace among college-trained journalists, and it annoys me that they are so unconcerned. Use of the phrase "The HMS -------" when referring to a British warship. A moments thought will understand that the correct typo cannot be "The Her Majesty's Ship" but merely "Her Majesty's Ship -----". Hence the use of an unadorned "HMS". IMO it's just down to sloppiness. I wonder how many of those guilty of such sloppy work would relish travelling on an aircraft if the flight crew were equally sloppy in their duties. Not very many, I suspect.

BTW, for anyone who's interested, the proper English pronunciation of the term "Shamen" is shay-men - not shar-men. So "Shamenism" is shay-men-ism. Of course a person can pronounce their words anyway they want. But if they don't pronounce them correctly then you can be pretty sure they never heard someone knowledgeable - who would know the correct pronunciation - speak on the subject. That usually means they read a book, came across an unknown word, and didn't bother to look it up in a dictionary. What's more, they never used it in conversation with someone who could have corrected them. This probably means that the person probably never even met anyone who was knowledgeable on the matter. Next time you hear some 'expert' pontificating on a particular subject, listen to hear if they consistently mis-pronounce technical terms, place names, etc. If they do, then you know they are trying to bluff their way through. You hear this all the time on TV and the news these days. It means the speaker, despite what they may be trying to appear to be, isn't in fact very knowledgeable about the subject at all. Because of this risk, for many years the BBC used to have its own specialised pronunciation department for it's newsreaders and presenters, so that viewers and listeners didn't have the jarring juxtaposition of someone appearing to possess gravitas and to talk fact, but getting the names and words wrong. Words like nucular when they really meant nuclear. For some mind-boggling difficult names to pronounce properly in English just hark back to the late 1970s-early 1980s, when the BBC newsreaders had to wrestle with names like Ndabaningi Sithole, Bishop Abel Muzorewa, Joshua Nkomo, and the now better-known Robert Mugabe. How did the BBC find out how to correctly pronounce these names - so as not to cause offence or appear ignorant. Simple - they asked someone who knew.

Think of it like this - if a person can't pronounce the name of a place properly, then they've almost certainly never been there. So their opinion on the place is probably not worth much. And if they claim it is, then there is a fair chance they may be trying to mislead you, if only on their knowledge of the area.

... and if I haven't convinced you, imagine that you live in an area with a local nuclear power station that suffers a serious accident leading to public safety fears and an evacuation crisis. Would YOU like your and YOUR family's safety to be in the hands of someone claiming expertise who keeps referring to nucular when they mean nuclear.

No, I thought not.

Make the effort to learn guys, it's all that separates us from the apes and the monkeys.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.147.13 (talk • contribs)

It's "The Shamen" on AllMusic and Discogs, and "The Shamen" on the sleeve of 'Drop', 'In Gorbachev We Trust', 'Phorward', 'En-Tact' (at the top, "Shamen" in large print), 'Boss Drum' (same as preceding). 'UV' uses both interchangeably ("Produced By The Shamen", "Recorded By The Shamen", "Mixed By Shamen" for example). "The Shamen" is the more common and is the conventional form used on other sites. kingboyk (talk) 19:11, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

The article should be titled "The Shamen", now that Shamen is a separate article about an entirely unrelated place in China. JIP | Talk 12:36, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

External links modified

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Techno

I fail to see why a certain user contains to remove this subgenre from groups that clearly have made a sizeable amount of this style of music under the guise of calling every IP address either 'Mr. Techno From Greece' or the 'Japanese vandal'. The Shamen are noted as making techno on various websites, and have cited it themselves on a regular basis. Here's one link just for starters - http://www.nemeton.com/static/nemeton/axis-mutatis/biog.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.50.19.242 (talk) 01:11, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Laughable edits from Malmsimp as usual - the Shamen have suddenly stopped being any of these genres/subgenres on who's say so? Electronica is an utterly vague term - yet you've left that one in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.207.112.86 (talk) 15:27, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

aktiv since 1985 and formed 1986 ?

Is this correct?

Shamen/Shamans

As the correct plural of "shaman" is "shamans" (see O.E.D., et al.), a word as to the name might be useful (it's what I came here to discover, and I was disappointed to find no explanation). Is it a mistake made out of ignorance, a deliberate decision, or what?

e.g.: 1972 P. M. Bartz S. Korea 42/1 Primitive spirit worship (shamanism) was followed by Buddhism... Today, there are said to be 27,000 shamans, 10,000 of them women. 1979 London Rev. Bks. 25 Oct. 1/1 America lacks this type of magician—the shamans there are grander, more worldly, more pretentious.

--87.112.45.99 (talk) 12:54, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Legacy?

Any indications they influenced 'Massive Attack' or 'The Prodigy'? Sounds (and looks) a lot like a precursor. ( I was listening to the Shamen in the late 80s)

Moby?

Did Moby make remixes of "Make it Mine". If so, did they influence Moby? Should be mentioned. about 1991
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqza8o2kpww
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yN7L7T-qd0
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt-jZeXqWsk

Looks like Moby's website: https://moby.com/music/the-shamen-%E2%80%8Emake-it-mine/

'In 1992, Moby completed his first US tour as the opening act for The Shamen.' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moby#1989%E2%80%931993:_Signing_with_Instinct,_%22Go%22,_and_breakthrough