Talk:The Sun (disambiguation)

Partial matches

@Z0: We apparently worked on this dab page at the same time. In my version, I grouped the entries a bit differently and I did not keep partial title matches such as The Baltimore Sun. Do you think we should keep some of them, and why? — JFG ^talk 10:31, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

It looks better now without the partial matches. The editor whose username is Z0 10:42, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Italic text

I don't think the title or intro should include italic text, the star isn't referred to like that and neither are some of the other entries, like The Sun (American band). The previous revert apparently only applied to the "bad grammar". Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:37, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Most entries under The Sun refer to publications, which is why I think we should italicize the title. A couple of band names and songs doesn't change this. Finally, the link to our beloved star is just here for convenience, it is not one of the dab subjects for title "The Sun". — JFG ^talk 14:16, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

But not all entries are. The RFD was split between having this as a DAB or redirecting to the star. Howver I can't find a guildline on this, neither Wikipedia:ITALIC nor the DAB makes reference to this but I'd say its inappropriate to use unless every item is italic. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:47, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Let's call up the Demigod of the Holy MOS, SMcCandlish, for an expert opinion. The question is: given that most entries on this dab page are newspapers and other creative works, but not all, should we italicize the title? — JFG ^talk 10:22, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Of course it should not be in italics. Sun still has the strongest claim to primary topic, there are also bands, songs and The Sun (Tarot card) which do not use italics. —Xezbeth (talk) 12:56, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Newspaper titles on Wikipedia are generally in italics, eg The New York Times.The Sun isn't particularly unusual here.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 13:35, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

This isn't a newspaper, it's a disambiguation page with an italicized title for some reason. If this was a set index that only listed newspapers then it would be understandable. —Xezbeth (talk) 16:56, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

There is Sun (newspaper) which is italicized but as noted the star is the primary meaning if any which is not usually italicized. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:05, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

This page is primarily about disambiguating newspapers and other publications which are called The Sun. As such, it isn't a disaster that the words are in italics, but I'm not going to argue over it one way or the other.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:21, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

A DAB page title shouldn't be italicized if any entries on it are not. I would argue further that it shouldn't be done at all (except maybe for a foreign-language phrase, something we italicize to mark it as un-English). We italicize the title of a major published work because it (that specific work) is a major published work. That rationale doesn't apply to a list of things that share the same name. "The Sun" as a phrase with multiple notable topical matches is the subject of the DAB page, and that phrase is not in and of itself a major published work.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:30, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: I wish I could have seen it this way all by myself. Thanks for your words of wisdom! — JFG ^talk 16:04, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

"Good coffee! And hot!".  ;-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:29, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 13 September 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is a consensus against this requested move. (closed by non-admin page mover) qedk (t 桜 c) 07:38, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

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The Sun → The Sun (disambiguation) – The Sun is obviously the primary topic and should be moved to the title with parenthetical disambiguation. Interstellarity (talk) 17:36, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: see also three previous discussions (linked at the top of this page): 2010, was then a redirect to Sun, no consensus for change; 2016, keep as redirect to Sun; 2018, closed as disambiguate as seen now. Normally, I'd suggest that three discussions are enough, but after struggling to see any sort of consensus in the most recent debate (however, do read the closing statement which explains the decision), perhaps another is merited. Lithopsian (talk) 19:09, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose, the most common incoming links to The Sun are for the current British newspaper, followed by a defunct Australian newspaper (the latter often in refs). I know this because I periodically check. There is a difference between the Sun and The Sun, which keeping this as a disambiguation page helps to keep clear. I have to say I think it's too soon after the last discussion. DuncanHill (talk) 12:08, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

  The previous discussion was over a year ago and the nom of this discussion didn't even participate in the previous one. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:30, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

  Thank you DuncanHill. I fixed a pile of newspaper links last year and now I know why I found so few bad links to The Sun (2 for UK, 1 for Sydney). Certes (talk) 21:00, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

• Lean Oppose but will keep watch. I am normally a Sun fan, and this makes sense on many levels, but read the last 2010 RM yesterday and the number of topics (including notable newspapers) is still a substantial argument. If there were some way to allow "the Sun" (lower-cased "the") to guide a search then this would surely be the way to go. But since only upper-cased "The"s make the search engine run, woe to the Sun. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:16, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose While it is true that The Earth redirects to Earth, "The Sun" is the name of a number of newspapers. It merits a disambiguation page due to the probability that people are searching for said newspapers._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 19:26, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• Question @Lithopsian, DuncanHill, Randy Kryn, and Zxcvbnm: I have changed the redirect target of The sun from Sun to The Sun. Do you agree with this change? Interstellarity (talk) 22:08, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

• Yes, it should redirect there._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 04:40, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

• While the star is still a proper noun, its the only topic that could be referred to as "the sun" since the newspapers would always be written in upper case, I suggest it should be changed back per WP:DIFFCAPS. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:30, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

• Change back per Crouch, Swale. "sun", incorrectly lower cased, almost always refers to the star in some form (either the star itself or "sun" when talking about "sunlight") and not the newspapers Randy Kryn (talk) 10:48, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Probably best to change it back given that it would be somewhat controversial, but I'm not too stressed about it. I checked for incoming links to the sun and there were none from mainspace. Ironically, there was a wikilink to the Sun, from a comet article and referring to the star. I fixed it. Neither option is perfect here, the sun is incorrectly capitalised for the star or the newspaper, but I imagine the star is not capitalised quite often, while it would be rare for the newspaper. Lithopsian (talk) 12:38, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

@Zxcvbnm: wouldn't you agree that having the lower case redirect to the star is acceptable per WP:DIFFCAPS? Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:27, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes, case shouldn't matter in this instance since both the Sun and The Sun are upper-case._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 19:26, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

As someone who was interested in the Solar System when I was 7/8 years old and knowing that our Sun is 8 and a bit minutes away from us compared to over 4 light years away for the next nearest star, I wasn't aware until a year or so ago that the term "sun" (lower case) refers to a star with planets around it. While Earth's star could arguably be titled The Sun per WP:THE since "sun" has a different meaning similar to crown, the generic term seems to be obscure and I don't think the specific star would be expected to be referred to with "The" being part of the name. However I still agree with Randy Kryn in that while some readers won't bother to capitalize proper nouns anyway the star is far more likely to be the only one that could reasonably be written in running text with a lower case "s". Thus like Iron maiden/Iron Maiden I think this is a valid case for DIFFCAPS since the news papers would clearly not be called with a lower case "s" however I'll wait until the end of this discussion before reverting since if this is closed as consensus for the star to be primary for the upper case "S" this will be moot anyway. In addition DuncanHill's concern about incoming links for the newspapers are unlikely to be an issue for the lower case "s". Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:41, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Came within a sunbeam of reverting this recent move, it should be changed back to redirect to Sun. Thanks for your memories, interested in the Solar System too as a youngster and had a poster of it hung in my room. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:26, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

While I agree with Zxcvbnm in that if all the DAB entries are upper case then the lower case should automatically follow it (and vice versa) I think this is still a valid case for DIFFCAPS. If one writes "sun" with a lower case "s" it would nearly always mean Earth's star not stars in general and that would be the case even more so if "the" is added before it, in which case the noun of a star with planets wouldn't be meant at all. Even though in the previous discussion I was in favour of having Earth's star as primary for the upper case I now don't think it is, its unlikely someone is looking for our star if they are adding "The" and searching with an upper case "S". Either way we can probably say that Sun has a stronger claim for "The sun" than "The Sun". Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:46, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. I'm not sure a lower-case 'the' option would change my mind, being unable to imagine confusing The Sun with the sun or the Sun, but see this case. Sparafucil (talk) 05:14, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

And don't get me started on Star system (filmmaking) :-P Sparafucil (talk) 19:59, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. Clearly our star is the most important topic on the page but I'm not convinced that it's primary for The Sun with a capital S. There is a better case for retargeting The sun to Sun. Keeping The Sun as a dab also helps editors to link to the right page. Although that should not be our first priority, it does make us more likely to get things right for the reader. Certes (talk) 21:00, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
• Just to be clear, I'm assuming that the link to Sun will continue to be the primary above-the-fold topic on the disamb. page no matter what happens with this RM, as it has been since its creation. There seems to be some question on that. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:24, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

"The sun" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect The sun. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Interstellarity (talk) 14:56, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 18 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. the majority view is that the sun is the primary topic. (closed by non-admin page mover) Frost 05:58, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

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The Sun → The Sun (disambiguation) – I know, I know, the last discussion on this exact topic closed with consensus against. But the policy on the matter is clear, and the last discussion barely touched that policy at all. WP:PTOPIC says, first, that A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term. With the wikinav entry showing that 2/3rds of people who visit the page are looking for Sun, that criterion seems to be met. You can argue that 2/3rds isn't high enough, but it's twice as likely than every other candidate combined.

PTOPIC also says that A topic is primary for a term with respect to long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term. With all due respect to the newspapers, the Sun meets that criteria with flying colors. I don't see how it could be argued that the thing that sustains all known life doesn't have substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than a couple of moderate-to-large companies. This seems like a pretty clear-cut case to me. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 02:22, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

• Leaning support, considering that The Earth and The Moon both point to their celestial bodies. BD2412 T 04:04, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
• Support per the above. It's astonishing that "the Sun" doesn't redirect to the Sun. ╠╣uw [talk] 12:19, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
• Note the The sun (lower case) was also changed to the DAB per Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2019 September 22#The sun but if moved we can change it to the star as there was clearly more support for the star being primary for the lower case. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:57, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 17:59, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose I think most readers have some intuitive idea about article naming that aligns somewhat with WP:THE, i.e. with only a few exceptions (e.g. The Crown), a separable "the" is not part of the title of an article. Therefore, the celestial body is less encyclopedic of a topic to cover at "The Sun" than the British tabloid, and I would argue that a reader who intentionally inserts the article when searching would actually be WP:ASTONISHed to be simply redirected to the celestial body. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 09:16, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

  @King of Hearts: I thought the same, but looking at the wikinav numbers, it doesn't seem to pan out – 67% of people who visit the dab page are looking for the Sun, more than twice as likely as the runner-up. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:08, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom. There are some instances where the word Sun needs a capital letter (I often leave it lowercase like with Internet). Due to technical issues, the first letter has to be capitalized. If successful, The sun (lowercase sun) would also need to be retargeted. JuniperChill (talk) 09:24, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
• Support obvious primary topic by long term significance (t · c) buidhe 15:58, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Support per nom Kowal2701 (talk) 12:25, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom and the redirects pointed out by BD2412. Egsan Bacon (talk) 22:44, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose The Moon (disambiguation) and The Earth (disambiguation) are both redlinks; The Earth (1921 film) and The Moon (2023 film) are clearly less notable than the various newspapers named The Sun. I don't think anybody looking for the sun would be astonished by a DAB page for this term. Walsh90210 (talk) 23:07, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
• Support per most of the above reasonings. The Sun, uppercase and lowercase, refers to the astronomical body, the star, and should redirect to the obvious primary. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:39, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
• Support. The Sun should be the title of the article on our star, aka Sol. Variations should point to either this article or the DAB at The Sun (disambiguation). Andrewa (talk) 05:37, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

followup to move discussion

Sorry, I happened to be too late to participate in the last RM. I noticed the talk of statistics and wanted to mention this:

All-time monthly page views indicate a recent surge in traffic, mostly in May.

WikiNav for The Sun would render these kinds of monthly clickstreams, I took the last six to try to make sure we're not overly influenced by the apparent surge:

Last three months of clickstreams from The Sun

From meta:Research:Wikipedia clickstream:

clickstream-enwiki-2024-01.tsv:

• The_Sun Sun link 1398
• The_Sun The_Sun_(United_Kingdom) link 565
• The_Sun Sun_(disambiguation) link 50
• The_Sun The_Sun_(magazine) link 44
• The_Sun The_Sun_(1792–1876) link 28
• The_Sun The_Sun_(film) link 17
• The_Sun The_Sun_(New_York_City) link 15
• The_Sun List_of_newspapers_named_Sun link 13
• The_Sun The_Sun_(tarot_card) link 12
• The_Sun The_Sun_(1893–1906) link 12
• total: 2154 to 10 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-02.tsv:

• The_Sun Sun link 1198
• The_Sun The_Sun_(United_Kingdom) link 384
• The_Sun Sun_(disambiguation) link 49
• The_Sun The_Sun_(magazine) link 42
• The_Sun The_Sun_(1792–1876) link 19
• The_Sun Main_Page other 13
• The_Sun The_Sun_(film) link 12
• The_Sun The_Sun_(New_York_City) link 12
• The_Sun The_Sun_(tarot_card) link 11
• The_Sun The_Sun_(1893–1906) link 11
• The_Sun The_New_York_Sun link 11
• The_Sun The_Baltimore_Sun link 11
• total: 1773 to 12 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-03.tsv:

• The_Sun Sun link 1325
• The_Sun The_Sun_(United_Kingdom) link 501
• The_Sun The_Sun_(magazine) link 72
• The_Sun Sun_(disambiguation) link 70
• The_Sun The_Sun_(tarot_card) link 23
• The_Sun The_Sun_(New_York_City) link 17
• The_Sun The_Sun_(1893–1906) link 14
• The_Sun The_Sun_(1792–1876) link 13
• The_Sun The_Sun_(film) link 12
• The_Sun The_New_York_Sun link 11
• The_Sun Polynesians other 11
• The_Sun The_Sun_(American_band) link 10
• The_Sun List_of_newspapers_named_Sun link 10
• total: 2089 to 13 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-04.tsv:

• The_Sun Sun link 1761
• The_Sun The_Sun_(United_Kingdom) link 515
• The_Sun The_Sun_(magazine) link 65
• The_Sun Sun_(disambiguation) link 47
• The_Sun The_Sun_(1792–1876) link 26
• The_Sun The_Sun_(tarot_card) link 15
• The_Sun The_Sun_(film) link 15
• The_Sun The_Sun_(1893–1906) link 15
• The_Sun The_Sun_(American_band) link 13
• The_Sun The_Sun_(New_York_City) link 11
• total: 2483 to 10 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-05.tsv:

• The_Sun Sun link 1445
• The_Sun The_Sun_(United_Kingdom) link 510
• The_Sun The_Sun_(magazine) link 71
• The_Sun Sun_(disambiguation) link 61
• The_Sun The_Sun_(1792–1876) link 19
• The_Sun The_Sun_(American_band) link 18
• The_Sun Main_Page other 15
• The_Sun The_Sun_(tarot_card) link 13
• The_Sun The_Sun_(1893–1906) link 13
• The_Sun The_Sun_(film) link 12
• total: 2177 to 10 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-06.tsv:

• The_Sun Sun link 944
• The_Sun The_Sun_(United_Kingdom) link 421
• The_Sun Sun_(disambiguation) link 40
• The_Sun The_Sun_(magazine) link 37
• The_Sun The_Sun_(1792–1876) link 21
• The_Sun The_Sun_(tarot_card) link 15
• The_Sun The_Sun_(1893–1906) link 10
• total: 1488 to 7 identified destinations

So the star is clearly the most commonly sought topic, but the ratios aren't that clear, and there's a clearly identifiable second most popular topic, the newspaper.

If we look at a comparison of individual outgoing clickstreams to total outgoing clickstreams identified:

• January 1398/2154 = ~64.9%
• February 1198/1773 = ~67.6%
• March 1325/2089 = ~63.4%
• April 1761/2483 = ~70.9%
• May 1445/2177 = ~66.3%
• June 944/1488 = ~63.4%

These numbers are actually a tad smaller because the clickstream system anonymizes every source-destination pair with less than 10 views, and in each month we clearly see entries around that threshold, so presumably there's an impact (the numbers near the threshold, above and below, may well be missing some data that got anonymized). Two thirds does seem to be a general reading.

If we look at a comparison of individual outgoing clickstreams to total incoming views:

• January 1398/2276 = ~61.4%
• February 1198/2536 = ~47.2%
• March 1325/3108 = ~42.7%
• April 1761/2962 = ~59.4%
• May 1445/4114 = ~35.1%
• June 944/2970 = ~31.8%

Now that's actually typically quite a bit below two thirds, at times dipping below one third.

It's also interesting to look at how the disambiguation list looked like. If I'm not mistaken, it looked mainly like this throughout this period, as the changes during this period were only in a United States section. So the formatting at the top was:

The Sun is the star at the center of the Solar System.

The Sun may also refer to:

Publications

...

It's possible that there was a problem with this sort of MOS:DABCOMMON formatting, as the first link was inline, and not delineated by a section heading or a bullet point. Would have been nice if we were able to test at the same relatively high volume of reader traffic. We'll have to see how many people click through the hatnote in the future. --Joy (talk) 09:35, 25 July 2024 (UTC)