Talk:The Teen Idles

Azerrad

Who is 'Azerrad', and where is the ISBN number for his/her book? (It should be in "References"). --andreasegde 19:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Failed "good article" nomination

This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of October 22, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: *"were the band's continual members" -

• "movement, as bassist" - replace "as" with "and" (it's not used correctly)

• Hopefully fixed. They were a key band in the D.C. hardcore movement, because it was MacKaye's first band.

• "attempt to, in the words of MacKaye, 'to get" - remove one "to"

• Fixed.

• "an attitude typical of many hardcore bands." - remove this from the lead. Unsubstantiated opinion, that doesn't really say anything directly about the band, which every fact in the lead should do.

• Fixed.

• "punk rock through the local college radio station, Georgetown University's WGTB" - change to "punk rock through a local college radio station—Georgetown University's WGTB"

• Fixed.

• "January 1979; a benefit" - replace the semi-colon with an mdash (the long one)

• Fixed.

• "The pair were inspired" - should be "was" since they are a single group in this usage

• Fixed.

• "later commented that "it blew my" - change to "later commented, "It blew my" (because it is a personal quote that contains the first person, and not just a general third-person statement.)

• Fixed.

• "to college; the band then" - Replace the semi-colon with a period. That new sentence introduces a really new topic.

• Fixed.

• "friend of MacKaye. However, Garfield" - it would be better, if you wanted to, to put a comma between these two sentences

• Hopefully fixed.

• " vocalist; The Slinkees" - again, too new of a topic. Use a period instead of semi-colon.

• Done. I probably use semi-colons too much.

• "After about a dozen gigs opening for bands such" - This sounds awkward. Say "After opening about a dozen times for bands such"

• Fixed, added commas.

• Read this sentence out loud and you will see the problems: "Before playing at the Mabuhay Gardens in California, the band were only allowed once big Xs, to show that they were under the legal drinking age, were drawn on their hands."

• Fixed.

• "The EP's success" - remove the apostrophe

• Rephrased.

• "After The Teen Idles, Grindle chose not pursue a career in music." - change to "After The Teen Idles disbanded, Grindle chose not to pursue a career in music."

• Fixed.

• "Nelson and MacKaye had already formed Minor Threat by Minor Disturbance's release" - change to "By the time of Minor Disturbance's release, Nelson and MacKaye had already formed Minor Threat."

• Fixed.

• The appearance section is anti-climatic since the reader has just finished reading about the band breakup, and then we start reading about them being back together. I would move that section to in between the formation and tour sections.

• Fixed.

2. Factually accurate?: Is everything in paragraph one from the third source? If not, then there needs to be more references. I might let this issue go for for a GA, but it needs to be addressed.

• Added another reference. I'll keep searching.

3. Broad in coverage?: Good job here.

4. Neutral point of view?: Yes!

5. Article stability? Stable. Not many contributors, though, which really can be a good thing for an article, since more eyes means less instances of passive bias or improved phrasing.

6. Images?: Yikes! Not good. The photo at the top contains zero information that the image is a PR photo, so it is mistagged. That is a major problem, and the reason I failed this article instead of putting it on hold.

• Done. Apparently it wasn't a promotional photo (although it's a shame there's no replacement image depicting the band members). CloudNine 16:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Overall the article is not bad. But it could use some sprucing up.

When these issues are addressed, the article can be renominated. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a Good article reassessment. Thank you for your work so far. — Esprit15d 14:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

GA hold

This is a well-written and serious article on what appears to be a fairly obscure band. Nice job on tracking down the information and arranging it so well! However, I think a few additions and source-checks will make it even better:

• I take it there are no free or fair use images of the band or their albums available for this page? Is there anything at all we could use that would be related? The page is a little bare without an image. Is the album cover for Minor Disturbance off limits for some reason?
  • Yes. Apparently the fair use criteria stipulate that an album image can't be used to illustrate a band (if I remember correctly). I did upload a fair use image of the band (the only one I've found so far), but it turned out it was not a promotional image released by the band. It's unfortunate; I'll keep looking.
    • I see. Are there related images we could use in the meantime, such as images of the bands that influenced them? Awadewit | talk 20:31, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

• What about a sample of their music to demonstrate their musical style? I noticed that was available at hardcore punk.
  • I plan to do this in the future when I have access to more of my CDs. At the moment, I can't. (I do agree, it's definitely useful in showing the band's style).
    • Excellent. Awadewit | talk 20:31, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

• The Teen Idles "played proto-hardcore tunes that skewed their social milieu" - perhaps the source says "skewered"? I don't quite follow the quote otherwise.
  • You're right; it's "skewered".

• The discography mentions an album called Teen Idles (EP) - could this be mentioned in the body of the article?
  • I believe it is, right at the end of the history section. It wasn't a huge release, just a minor compilation of tracks.
    • Missed that - sorry. Awadewit | talk 20:31, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

• I am a bit concerned that some of the sources are self-published, such as the liner notes and the websites from the later versions of the band. Are these usually considered acceptable sources for band articles (notes 5, 6, 8). Also, what is the All Music Guide precisely? Does it accept content from fans, like IMDB.com? It kind of seemed like it might when I quickly glanced at it. If so, it is not reliable. Awadewit | talk 00:28, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
  • All Music Guide is definitely a reliable source; it's written by professional music journalists and is used throughout music articles on Wikipedia. The sentences I've referenced are also available in other sources (such as Azerrad's), but they're reliable enough to serve as another reference. (I have a feeling Azerrad must have referred to the liner notes).
    • AMG mentioned it uses the knowledge of the "fanatics", so I wondered, but that's fine. It is also good that the information is double-referenced. Looks like you have those bases covered. Awadewit | talk 20:31, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I think with a few minor fixes, this will easily pass GA. Awadewit | talk 00:28, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

• I'll go ahead and pass this, since neither images nor music clips are a requirement for an article to be GA. :) Awadewit | talk 20:31, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Omissions & FA advice

Noticed this article when the FA nom was posted at WP:PUNK. Just thought I'd chime in. Overall this looks good, but I note a couple of glaring omissions:

1. There's a "musical style" section, but no audio samples. It ought to have at least one to demonstrate the hardcore styles and lyrical themes discussed in the section. I'd do it, but I don't have any Teen Idles music unfortunately.
2. The lead mentions that they were "an early landmark in the straightedge movement", but then straightedge is not mentioned anywhere else in the article. I know (from Azerrad's Our Band Could Be Your Life) that the story of the band's Xs on their hands for shows and on the cover of Minor Disturbance were what inspired the whole Xs on the hands straightedge thing...this could surely be explained and referenced to Azerrad. The Xs on the hands are mentioned, but there's no mention of how this tied into straightedge and became a trend within the subculture. You could also use the album cover to illustrate this; it should pass fair use as it would be the subject of specific referenced commentary in that section.

In general, I note that there hasn't been a heckuva lot of work done on this article since it passed GA about a year ago (only about 35 edits have been made since then, mostly minor). I highly recommend taking this through a couple more steps before nominating it for FA, as its chances of passing aren't that great:

1. First you should have at least one peer review done so you can get some constructive criticism; this is usually the first step in getting from GA to FA.
2. Also you might consider asking some experienced copyeditors to review the article to help it meed the "brilliant prose" FA criteria. Take a look at Tony's guides to see how to shoot for brilliant prose.
3. Next you should nominate it for A-class review (A class is the class between GA and FA; check out Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians/Assessment for the criteria and to request assessment).

Anyway, that's my two cents. Often we as editors are tempted to jump straight from GA to FA, thinking it won't be all that difficult, when in fact the difference between a GA article and an FA one is pretty dramatic, and getting there requires several intermediate steps. Requesting some help in the form of peer reviews and copyedits should get you there, though. You also might consider asking some help from WP:PUNK, which has recently undergone a major revitalization. --IllaZilla (talk) 01:00, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the tips. I've actually had about eight featured articles promoted, so I'm fairly familiar with the process already. I haven't editied articles on Wikipedia for a while, so the featured article nomination was mainly a jump to try and get me editing again. I'll definitely try and work at the prose (and the straight edge part needs including). CloudNine (talk) 10:36, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

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